should image comics actually enforce a deadline policy to make sure books actually come out?

[Joker]

How do you know that I haven't shopped at or spoken to most comic shops? I seriously want an answer to this. Do you know me personally? Have we met? Do you know what I do for a living? If the answer is "no" to all those questions then you are one who is largely uninformed about my knowledge of sales and creator perspective.

Why don't back up your claims with factual evidence? List every store, by name, that you've spoken to about Image and their sales/reputations followed by the date when you spoke to them and the employee/position that you spoke to. Then tell us exactly who you are and what you do for a living?

Otherwise you're just another nobody crying about late comic books on a message board behind a screen name and there's no reason for anyone to take anything you say as a factual.

Nevermind that the claims you make would involve speaking to a large majority of the comic buying public individually, which I'm pretty sure you haven't.

Nevermind that if anything you said was true Image wouldn't be steadily gaining ground in the direct market over the last few years.

[JFP]

How many big 2 books have put out 12 consecutive issues with the same creative team (no fill ins, no changes after solicitations, no several inkers or pencillers chipping in to meet deadlines no multiple colorists or letterers to help out, etc.) on a monthly schedule without any delays in the last 5-10 years?

Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age artists would churn out pages to meet deadlines and many, many of those pages were filled with largely blank backgrounds that colorists would fill with a monochrome block of color behind the figures to allow for the panels to look full. Individual issues got down to as low as 17 pages in the Bronze Age and many of the books were on bi-monthly (not monthly) schedules and still required fill-ins and reprint issues to keep up that schedule.

The monthly schedule has always been a rushed pace, but corners were always cut to meet it because of the needs of the market and the parameters of 20th century publishing.

It's not the 20th century anymore, the type of corner cutting that used to be used would not be accepted in today's market-fans would flip is the latest issue of Iron Man were a reprint of a story because creators couldn't meet the monthly deadline as happened often in the past, people complained when Greg Capullo took an issue off of Batman and he is one of the more prolific and consistent creators still producing big 2 books and sales dropped when he did. The monthly schedule is not only a rushed pace, it is a dinosaur in 21st century publishing.

-M

Interesting perspective. I think you make a valid point. However, I think the monthly comic is a rushed schedule for some artists, not all.

Why don't back up your claims with factual evidence? List every store, by name, that you've spoken to about Image and their sales/reputations followed by the date when you spoke to them and the employee/position that you spoke to. Then tell us exactly who you are and what you do for a living?

Otherwise you're just another nobody crying about late comic books on a message board behind a screen name and there's no reason for anyone to take anything you say as a factual.

Nevermind that the claims you make would involve speaking to a large majority of the comic buying public individually, which I'm pretty sure you haven't.

Nevermind that if anything you said was true Image wouldn't be steadily gaining ground in the direct market over the last few years.

To all the posters: this is a friendly discussion and feel everyone has an equal right to speak. Even a reader who just got into comics has an equal right to speak as a guy with decades of experience like Stan Lee. Why? Because a reader is a paying customer. Paying customers keep the comic book industry alive, not Stan Lee or any other kind of industry professional. Therefore, paying customers, even those in elementary school should be heard here. No one needs credentials before they can speak. If I came off as arrogant or condescending in some way, I wish to apologize. Everyone opinion is valid and I have no right to be arrogant. No matter how much we like comic books, there's no reason to feel hostile toward someone else for having a different opinion from us. Because that reader can easily take his money elsewhere. And in an industry with dwindling readers like the comic book industry, that's not a good thing.

To you, Joker: that apology in my previous paragraph is directed to you as well. However, it is obvious you have some sort of hostility toward me because I do not see you demanding the other seven or so posters in this thread to back up their opinion. I sensed this hostility toward me in a previous thread I took part in when we conversed for the first time. I don't know where this hostility came from. And I do not care. We don't need to be friends. But we're not getting into any internet bickering or feuding. We're done here. Since you have a problem with my posts where you cannot talk to me without singling me out to back up my claims while not asking the same from other posters, I suggest if I've done anything against the rules to either report me to the mods or ignore me. I find reporting me or ignoring me an acceptable course of actions if I've broken the rules. From now on, I'm just gonna ignore you because I've accepted that we can't have a discussion without you feeling hostile toward me. Have a nice life.

[capuga]

We're getting close to locking down this thread. I find it an interesting conversation so let's get it back on track and stick to debating the concepts and not engaging in back and forth with other individuals.

[Bor]

Interesting perspective. I think you make a valid point. However, I think the monthly comic is a rushed schedule for some artists, not all.


To all the posters: this is a friendly discussion and feel everyone has an equal right to speak. Even a reader who just got into comics has an equal right to speak as a guy with decades of experience like Stan Lee. Why? Because a reader is a paying customer. Paying customers keep the comic book industry alive, not Stan Lee or any other kind of industry professional. Therefore, paying customers, even those in elementary school should be heard here. No one needs credentials before they can speak. If I came off as arrogant or condescending in some way, I wish to apologize. Everyone opinion is valid and I have no right to be arrogant. No matter how much we like comic books, there's no reason to feel hostile toward someone else for having a different opinion from us. Because that reader can easily take his money elsewhere. And in an industry with dwindling readers like the comic book industry, that's not a good thing.

To you, Joker: that apology in my previous paragraph is directed to you as well. However, it is obvious you have some sort of hostility toward me because I do not see you demanding the other seven or so posters in this thread to back up their opinion. I sensed this hostility toward me in a previous thread I took part in when we conversed for the first time. I don't know where this hostility came from. And I do not care. We don't need to be friends. But we're not getting into any internet bickering or feuding. We're done here. Since you have a problem with my posts where you cannot talk to me without singling me out to back up my claims while not asking the same from other posters, I suggest if I've done anything against the rules to either report me to the mods or ignore me. I find reporting me or ignoring me an acceptable course of actions if I've broken the rules. From now on, I'm just gonna ignore you because I've accepted that we can't have a discussion without you feeling hostile toward me. Have a nice life.

I dont want to comment on the Whole intertaction thing between you two and as far as I know you and I have not really interacted before in any way so I take it we are fine.

That being said: I think one of the reason why others here, myself included, have not been asked to support out claim is because the numbers posted on this and others site mostly support our views and are something that is pretty common knowledge around here on sales regarding Image.
If you look here you can see the sales for single issues and trades for June.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...an-cracks-400k

As you can see while its true that Marvel and DC dominates the single issues, many of the Trades are Image because that is a very big part of how Image, and creators, actually earn their Money. Not in the relatively few single issues but the collected editions later on. The same thing applies to evergreens like Watchmen: 2450 sold that month (295.000 sold in total). Thats for book that is 30 years old at this point. This how these creators make their Money in the long run. That is exactly why Image should not want the creators to finish their job as fast as possible, but give them the Space/time they need to make sure that the comics are going to be worth reading in the long run. Compare how many stories from Marvel and Image that are consistenly in print and you will see that while Marvel, mostly, gets Things out on time the vast majority of their stories do not actually sell outside of the first few month of realese, while stuff like Saga continue to sell quite a lot. That is want Image is build around now.

If Creators were "forced" to write a comic each month could they put it out on time? Maybe but I doubt it would be as good as they are know.
I certaintly think that the Image has a better level of books compared to Marvel/DC. All Companies put out good and bad books but I know that I atleast, and I doubt I am alone here, are much more likely to actual enjoy a new series from Image then I am from the big two. Sure that is because those two puts outs SO MANY new series each year and renumber/reboot, but I would still argue the batting average is better for Image.

[JFP]

I dont want to comment on the Whole intertaction thing between you two and as far as I know you and I have not really interacted before in any way so I take it we are fine.

That being said: I think one of the reason why others here, myself included, have not been asked to support out claim is because the numbers posted on this and others site mostly support our views and are something that is pretty common knowledge around here on sales regarding Image.
If you look here you can see the sales for single issues and trades for June.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...an-cracks-400k

As you can see while its true that Marvel and DC dominates the single issues, many of the Trades are Image because that is a very big part of how Image, and creators, actually earn their Money. Not in the relatively few single issues but the collected editions later on. The same thing applies to evergreens like Watchmen: 2450 sold that month (295.000 sold in total). Thats for book that is 30 years old at this point. This how these creators make their Money in the long run. That is exactly why Image should not want the creators to finish their job as fast as possible, but give them the Space/time they need to make sure that the comics are going to be worth reading in the long run. Compare how many stories from Marvel and Image that are consistenly in print and you will see that while Marvel, mostly, gets Things out on time the vast majority of their stories do not actually sell outside of the first few month of realese, while stuff like Saga continue to sell quite a lot. That is want Image is build around now.

If Creators were "forced" to write a comic each month could they put it out on time? Maybe but I doubt it would be as good as they are know.
I certaintly think that the Image has a better level of books compared to Marvel/DC. All Companies put out good and bad books but I know that I atleast, and I doubt I am alone here, are much more likely to actual enjoy a new series from Image then I am from the big two. Sure that is because those two puts outs SO MANY new series each year and renumber/reboot, but I would still argue the batting average is better for Image.

Thanks for providing the link for those sales. The enlighten things.

As far as rushing stories goes, I don't think that's what the OP wants. I think he's been misinterpreted and has a difficult time getting his point across. He made his point with this quote from page 2:

at the very least the creators could be more up front with how fast or how slow they are and how often they expect issues to actually come out

at least then it won't be a disappointment when a book suddenly just comes out once every couple of months

if you can't work with the monthly format then just do a mini series or don't do comics at all

So his basic point is if a creator cannot do a monthly schedule, that is fine. But that creator shouldn't start a monthly book only to bail out on it. It leaves the public disappointed with him and reluctant to pick up not only more work but more creator-owned comics. Therefore, a creator should just do a mini-series or nothing at all.

I agree entirely with this. No one is forcing a creator who can't do a monthly to start a monthly book. He does it on his own initiative. A mini-series works much better for everyone. The creator and publisher have a completed story; the public has a completed story; and the retailer has a completed story. I see Hellboy doing this and it is working out for them just fine. I don't see why it can't work for other creators.

[Bor]

Thanks for providing the link for those sales. The enlighten things.

As far as rushing stories goes, I don't think that's what the OP wants. I think he's been misinterpreted and has a difficult time getting his point across. He made his point with this quote from page 2:


So his basic point is if a creator cannot do a monthly schedule, that is fine. But that creator shouldn't start a monthly book only to bail out on it. It leaves the public disappointed with him and reluctant to pick up not only more work but more creator-owned comics. Therefore, a creator should just do a mini-series or nothing at all.

I agree entirely with this. No one is forcing a creator who can't do a monthly to start a monthly book. He does it on his own initiative. A mini-series works much better for everyone. The creator and publisher have a completed story; the public has a completed story; and the retailer has a completed story. I see Hellboy doing this and it is working out for them just fine. I don't see why it can't work for other creators.

But that has also been commented on. Often these series are not billed as "monthly" but ongoings. Big difference. The medium has a long history of bi-monthly, 4 times a year etc in addition to the monthly comic. OP and other poster here miss that point and the fact that often the creators announce in advance that there is going to be a break between story acts. If anything Image themselves could be better at stating it because as already discussed many readers dont read creators blogs/ social media,
See it like this: A tv show has planned breaks during Winter or summer but it is still the same series. A series does not change name just because it had a 3 month break for summer.
In addition to that the reason it often Works for Hellboy is because many, not all but many, of those stories can be read as a stand alone series but the same do not apply to many other series. Also you seem to think that these breaks hurt the title and make people less inclined to pick up the series again whereas the sales numbers just dont support that to any large degree. Sure sales might go a little down for the individual issues but Again that is often not the main focus in the long run so its not really that important. So no I dont think a creator should do a mini-series or nothing, I dont accept that the problem is as big as some here tries to say it is. Sure there are examples where a title is pushed so much back it becomes a joke, Afterlife with Archie and Sabrina I am looking at you, but those are not the majority and are certaintly not a Image problem alone.

[Joker]

Straight numbers? Marvel and DC outsell everyone. It's why they're called The Big Two. They've been running these characters since the '40's and '60s. People are invested in those characters more than new characters. They also (combined) put out a ton of books each month. More than any other publisher. So, of course more shelf space is going to be dedicated to their books. That's just numbers. It has nothing to do with faith in Image books getting cancelled.

A lot of Image books are self policing. Southern Bastards fucked up pretty big and they know it. They're addressing that problem. It's just too bad they didn't address it to the readerbase while it was happening.

Image also seem to be addressing the larger problem going forward, and that's a good thing. I hope it works. I'd rather have a wait between arcs than between issues, and I believe that's the model they're shooting for as a company. It's worked just fine for Saga.

There's not really anything they can do if an issue runs late, but requiring X amount of complete issues before soliciting a book is a solid way to make sure that at least the arc comes out monthly. People will get used to skip months between arcs. A lot of books are adopting that in the wake of Saga and it seems to be working.

[Batarang]

Straight numbers? Marvel and DC outsell everyone. It's why they're called The Big Two. They've been running these characters since the '40's and '60s. People are invested in those characters more than new characters. They also (combined) put out a ton of books each month. More than any other publisher. So, of course more shelf space is going to be dedicated to their books. That's just numbers. It has nothing to do with faith in Image books getting cancelled.

A lot of Image books are self policing. Southern Bastards fucked up pretty big and they know it. They're addressing that problem. It's just too bad they didn't address it to the readerbase while it was happening.

Image also seem to be addressing the larger problem going forward, and that's a good thing. I hope it works. I'd rather have a wait between arcs than between issues, and I believe that's the model they're shooting for as a company. It's worked just fine for Saga.

There's not really anything they can do if an issue runs late, but requiring X amount of complete issues before soliciting a book is a solid way to make sure that at least the arc comes out monthly. People will get used to skip months between arcs. A lot of books are adopting that in the wake of Saga and it seems to be working.

what did they f*** up ? i just ordered the first HC... and i had high hopes for the series (just like Rat Queens which i just got its firt Deluxe HC) until i heard what you said...

[Joker]

The individual issues of the 3rd arc came out really far apart. The story is still great, but it suffered some pretty awful delays. Read away, you've nothing to worry about in the story department.

[ed2962]

It's not so much why they end up quitting that is the problem. It is the fact that they do end up quitting. Know who suffers from abruptly cancelled titles? Your local comic bookstore. As I stated before, the guy at Big Brain Comics in Minneapolis closed last June after being open since 1996. The reason: fatigue. He once said to me, "When a comic book fan walks into a comic bookstore, he sees a whole bunch of stories he has yet to read. When I, a comic bookstore owner, walk into my comic bookstore, I see a whole bunch of comics I've yet to make a profit off of."

Every square foot in a comic bookstore costs money that he has to pay to the realtor. So when he sees an unfinished comics occupying a square foot, he sees money down the drain displaying products in his store he can't sell. So while the creator has stopped work on his comic because he needs pay immediately, he has screwed over the comic bookstore owner. The comic bookstore owner can't abruptly stop working because he needs something that pays immediately. How would creators feel if comic book owners took their books abruptly off the shelves and said, "Hey, I'm taking your book off my shelf abruptly in order to stock it with a product that pays immediately."? Would creators like that? It would only be fair, right?

Fans will complain about the decline in comic bookstores across America. But then they'll give excuses for their favorite creators and the late or cancelled comics. No matter what the excuse is, your favorite creator and his late comic are a central cause of your local comic bookstore closing.

I'm not so sure that's the way it works. There's a variety of reasons why a store might go under. You can't pin it all on just indie artists being late on a title.

[InformationGeek]

Image also seem to be addressing the larger problem going forward, and that's a good thing. I hope it works. I'd rather have a wait between arcs than between issues, and I believe that's the model they're shooting for as a company. It's worked just fine for Saga.

There's not really anything they can do if an issue runs late, but requiring X amount of complete issues before soliciting a book is a solid way to make sure that at least the arc comes out monthly. People will get used to skip months between arcs. A lot of books are adopting that in the wake of Saga and it seems to be working.

I agree with that model being used. I'm not biggest fan of Saga, but I appreciate the creative team taking breaks between arcs to get a lot of issues done before they start with a new arc. If more series used that, I think things would be a lot better for helping readers stay interested in a title.


I think that model would have helped The Dying and The Dead and also Velvet a lot. The delays on those books were awful and it absolutely killed my interest in Velvet. By the way, is that book over yet?

[Orpheus37]

I think it really comes down to being reasonable. At the end of the day Image does have to demand some type of accountability from the creators. Massive delays and unfinished series under the Image i reflects poorly on them. I think pretty much everyone is willing to give some some leeway to not meeting a monthly deadline, if all of these series could be relied upon for for 7-8 issues a year I don't think anyone would be complaining. To be fair, Image themselves deserve some flack too. They go buck wild at their expos announcing series after series which will never actually come out, and that is a poor policy. You can't promote a bunch of stuff that may or may not see the light of day like its a guarantee to your fans.

Ultimately, Image suffers with the same issues that anywhere, anyone, etc. suffers when they say "just do whatever the heck you want." You'll get guys like Remender who are ultra determined and use the atmosphere create a whole mothership of cool comics. On the other side, you'll get a bunch of creators who start something that's super long and ambitious and for whatever reason it'll never be finished. And I'm sorry, I don't believe financial problems with the book are any excuse for this type of stuff. If you are not positive that you can make bank for the long haul, you should do something shorter. Honestly, I don't understand why so many of these guys want to tell some super long story. A bunch of the greatest comic stories fit into a single volume, and I think shorter, high quality stuff is what both image and its creators should strive for.

[Chrysalis_Changling]

yeah that's basically what i want and what anyone should wan....Image to Demand the creators take responsibility with they're actions instead of just letting things fall apart never to recover

and yes this is what happens when you give everyone the freedom to do whatever they want whenever they want

if you gave someone a job and said they could come to work whenever they feel like it....chances are you aren't gonna see much of that person

[Bor]

yeah that's basically what i want and what anyone should wan....Image to Demand the creators take responsibility with they're actions instead of just letting things fall apart never to recover

and yes this is what happens when you give everyone the freedom to do whatever they want whenever they want

if you gave someone a job and said they could come to work whenever they feel like it....chances are you aren't gonna see much of that person

Okay I feel like I have to say something since you seem keen to ignore many of the points made in this thread.

1. How many times has this actually happened where things "fell apart" as you say? As pointed out often the creators has been upfront about needing breaks and the fact that ongoing does not have to mean monthly. Often those comics that did end was because the simple fact the comic didnt sell, which is to bad but not really a case of the creators not taking responsibility. So no the only thing I want and think everyone should want is for the creators to do more comics that can be enjoyed.

2. This is not a case of someone giving some a job as much as creators having something to publish they want to publish and going to Image with it. Image is not their "boss" as much as their publisher and that is an important difference.
3. If they did that there is a good chance they would a different publisher instead which in the end would mean Image loosing that series and the long term sales coming with it.

I think the problem here is not so much Image as much as you not liking their buissness model, which is fine because you dont have to, but that does not change the fact that model works for them.
The last thing I want to say I might be alone about but I am going to say it anyway: If a creator does get bored with a series I am completely fine with him/her taking a break from it instead of keep on doing a series just to do it. I would much rather have a series with a break of 4-6 months where each issue is actually worth reading instead of something that both reads and looks like a "pay check job". Those things happens way to often at the big two and I see no reason for it to happen to series that I enjoy at Image.

[Orpheus37]

Okay I feel like I have to say something since you seem keen to ignore many of the points made in this thread.

1. How many times has this actually happened where things "fell apart" as you say? As pointed out often the creators has been upfront about needing breaks and the fact that ongoing does not have to mean monthly. Often those comics that did end was because the simple fact the comic didnt sell, which is to bad but not really a case of the creators not taking responsibility. So no the only thing I want and think everyone should want is for the creators to do more comics that can be enjoyed.

2. This is not a case of someone giving some a job as much as creators having something to publish they want to publish and going to Image with it. Image is not their "boss" as much as their publisher and that is an important difference.
3. If they did that there is a good chance they would a different publisher instead which in the end would mean Image loosing that series and the long term sales coming with it.

I think the problem here is not so much Image as much as you not liking their buissness model, which is fine because you dont have to, but that does not change the fact that model works for them.
The last thing I want to say I might be alone about but I am going to say it anyway: If a creator does get bored with a series I am completely fine with him/her taking a break from it instead of keep on doing a series just to do it. I would much rather have a series with a break of 4-6 months where each issue is actually worth reading instead of something that both reads and looks like a "pay check job". Those things happens way to often at the big two and I see no reason for it to happen to series that I enjoy at Image.

I see what you're saying, and while Image isn't necessarily a traditional boss, it is still them distributing the content under their company name. There are tons of creators who would love to have a series at image who are not getting that opportunity. Image would be perfectly justified in canceling a series that barely comes out to give other creators a chance to make a book that comes out on a reasonable schedule. I also appreciate your loyalty to sticking with books but I'm an image fan too and don't feel the same, and there are obviously other people like me. At the end of the day you have to get your product out, and there is a fine line between taking some extra time and totally abusing your privileges with the fans and the publisher. Plus there is some humility that needs to come in to play on the part of image and its creators. They need to honor their commitments to the fans who are buying their books. Its such an arrogant idea that people should wait a super long time because a creator is making a "genius and true" work of art or whatever, which most times is complete nonsense. Deadlines should not be looked as bad as long they're reasonable, structure can actually help creativity a lot more than it can stifle it as long as its not overbearing.