should image comics actually enforce a deadline policy to make sure books actually come out?

[Bor]

I think this thread is starting to go in circles a bit. If certain creators don't deliver and their reputation takes a bit of a hit...and those series happen to be at Image (or w/e publisher), then the publisher's reputation might take a bit of a hit.

I think Image imposing deadlines isn't the answer, but it seems any comment about creators not delivering is interpreted as supporting the initial topic's question.

These are issues the industry is facing now that the non-big two publishers, specifically Image since that is the premiere destination for non big 2, had an influx of talent. What's the best way for creators to do their thing and fans not to get jaded with delays? I don't think it's been worked out just yet, which is why you're seeing the push-pull between "let creators take however long they need" and "I'd like a comic coming out at a steady rate." The Saga team's plan of story arc, 3 month break, story arc, etc might be it. But I think for the most part complaints about delays weren't in regards to that method, it was series which start and randomly stop and nothing is heard from again, or excessive delays within story arcs.

Just to clarify my position: My view point has never been that I dont agree that a creator should not try deliver the comics they announce on time.
My problem is when people ignore facts like the difference between ongoing and monthly, announced delays on social media, planned breaks, or real life issues like bad Health or needing to pay the rent.
And making unfounded statements that goes agaínst actual sales numbers/buissness strategies and puts an individuals personal experience above all that.
I also dont think Image should, if they could, demand that because it very well could end up hurting themselves in the long run. The 12 or issues of walking dead solled a year is nothing compared to what they make on the collected editions and will likely continue to do so for years to come. That is their buissnes model right now, like it or not.

[Orpheus37]

No the milk argument fits just fine. If you choose to ignore it that is your choice. Sure if the creators goes in knowing he/she will never finish it that sucks and that is a bad creator. But then that creator gets a reputation and people will not bug more from him/her. That is how it works. If you support a creator under the belief that you are guanted a finished story then that is on you. That is not how this transaction works. Besides you still ignoring the many arguments people have given for why a series can be delayed and apparently choosen to ignore them.

If it has to do with health or family/friend emergencies I'm totally willing to accept a creator walking away or working slowly. Lord knows there's stuff more important than comics. As for industry realities, as a consumer, I could care less. If the industry can't handle the series then don't make it and try to profit off of it in the first place. Its not the customer's job to worry about industry realities anyway, if they invest in the story they should be able to read it to its finish, and I'm fine if the story is shortened given realities of making it, but just give it an arc and an ending. I understand its hard to make comics especially with economic realities, but its being used as way too much of crutch for a lot of unfinished and not even started announced work. Don't promote unless you can deliver.

[Orpheus37]

I think this thread is starting to go in circles a bit. If certain creators don't deliver and their reputation takes a bit of a hit...and those series happen to be at Image (or w/e publisher), then the publisher's reputation might take a bit of a hit.

I think Image imposing deadlines isn't the answer, but it seems any comment about creators not delivering is interpreted as supporting the initial topic's question.

These are issues the industry is facing now that the non-big two publishers, specifically Image since that is the premiere destination for non big 2, had an influx of talent. What's the best way for creators to do their thing and fans not to get jaded with delays? I don't think it's been worked out just yet, which is why you're seeing the push-pull between "let creators take however long they need" and "I'd like a comic coming out at a steady rate." The Saga team's plan of story arc, 3 month break, story arc, etc might be it. But I think for the most part complaints about delays weren't in regards to that method, it was series which start and randomly stop and nothing is heard from again, or excessive delays within story arcs.

I think the Saga model is a great answer.

[Joker]

There's some bananas shit getting thrown around in this thread. Maybe y'all need a new hobby.

[Orpheus37]

Just to clarify my position: My view point has never been that I dont agree that a creator should not try deliver the comics they announce on time.
My problem is when people ignore facts like the difference between ongoing and monthly, announced delays on social media, planned breaks, or real life issues like bad Health or needing to pay the rent.
And making unfounded statements that goes agaínst actual sales numbers/buissness strategies and puts an individuals personal experience above all that.
I also dont think Image should, if they could, demand that because it very well could end up hurting themselves in the long run. The 12 or issues of walking dead solled a year is nothing compared to what they make on the collected editions and will likely continue to do so for years to come. That is their buissnes model right now, like it or not.

yeah but don't forget Kirkman and Moore falling out had a lot to do with Moore being too slow, and then he hired Adlard who was much faster.

[MRP]

yeah that's basically what i want and what anyone should wan....Image to Demand the creators take responsibility with they're actions instead of just letting things fall apart never to recover

and yes this is what happens when you give everyone the freedom to do whatever they want whenever they want

if you gave someone a job and said they could come to work whenever they feel like it....chances are you aren't gonna see much of that person

Except here in this case, Image works for the creator basically. They ar ea publishing house whose job is to print and distribute the creators' book(s) to the marketplace and take a percentage of the profits for doing so. They don't pay the creators, they get paid by the creators. Now Image could put language in the contract that requires x amount of issues over a period of time (like book publishers do requiring x number of books over a set period of time) to fulfill the contract, but if they want to model themselves after book publishers they would need to pay creators advances as well as royalties to cover expenses for creators until the back end royalties come in, but that is an expensive and risky proposition and I don't see Image doing that (though some of the graphic novel divisions of the big publishers like Scholastic, First Second, etc, might).

People need to stop thinking of Image in the same model as Marvel and DC, those are content creators who hire creators to work on properties they own and are in essence the boss. Image does not work on that model. They are not content creators. They do not "hire" creators, and they can't set terms, only negotiate them and if it is not in the contract, they cannot then make demands or change the contract one-sidedly. Image could certainly choose not to work with certain creators any more, or end a relationship if sales aren't meeting expected criteria if there is terms in the contract for that, but more often than not an Image book ends when the creator is done with it or can no longer afford to produce it.

-M

[Bor]

yeah but don't forget Kirkman and Moore falling out had a lot to do with Moore being too slow, and then he hired Adlard who was much faster.

Sure but that does really change my argument.

[JFP]

What about the finances of his fans? Are you serious.... So you think that because you bought one comic that entitles you to control his Work and future? Wow....
And I am just going to call bull .... on the 1% claim. If you make a claim like that back it up with actual evidence or dont bring it up. I can tell you for sure that is not my experience and I highly doubt that is the case for others then you, or you are really buying the wrong comics compared to the rest of us.
As for your examples of other media: I will bet that for each Image comic unfinished I can provide atleast as many tv series where the same applies.

No one is saying you cant complain, but when you expect creators Work without pay you are reaching a fan level that is unhealty.
And the people who scorn people who read comics are thinking of the "comic book guy" who expects his comics because he "needs" them which your side is a great representative of here.

I do not understand where you say, "you expect creators to work without pay." I paid for his comic. Doesn't matter if he gets paid at the back end or whatever, I paid for his comic. And I am willing to pay more if he can complete his comic. So if people are paying for his comic, how can you say he's working without pay?

What are you talking about regarding evidence for the 1%? I was saying I had hundreds of titles for my collection and 1% of those were completed. Why should I need evidence to prove that?

Again, not really. You did not pay for the story to be completed. You didn't front money for the entire story arc to be finished. You paid money for one single issue. You received the issue you paid for. The transaction is complete. You are not entitled to future issues because you paid for the issue that you received. Of course it would be nice if you got the entire story you were hoping for. But you didn't pay for that and sometimes stuff happens.

And this whole thing about it hurting the comic book stores is overblown as well. Comic book stores order the amount of issues they believe they can sell based on a number of criteria such as number of pre-orders (easily the most important factor, so if you are interested in a series make sure you pre-order and put it on your pull list), the tastes of their particular customers, creator reputations, standard issue to issue attrition, etc.

If they are doing their ordering correctly, they'll have ordered in the ballpark of the amount they can sell through. They are not out any money on future issues because they haven't paid for them yet. So if a series disappears, why would it cost them anything? They've already hopefully already sold and made a profit on the issues that did come out.

Creator reputation does certainly come into play. If a creator gets a reputation of not delivering and angering fans into not wanting to take a chance on their new series, the comic store should take this into account when they do their ordering. They should order something that will be profitable and sell. So a well managed store has already taken all of this into consideration when purchasing their inventory. Yes, this means that flaky creators will/should see dips in their sales. That is their punishment for not fulfilling their promises.

So if Kirkmanjust cancelled Invincible right now, you'd be fine with that? You'd be fine with not knowing how the series end? You'd say, "Well, I am fine that I spent hundreds of dollars without knowing how the story of Markus Grayson ends."? Perhaps you would. But why would you be think it's wrong for other fans to be mad that they spent hundreds of dollars not to know how the story ends?

When you bought Invincible issue #1, were you paying on the expectation that Kirkman would complete the story?

The whole thing isn't about the monetary transaction only. It's also about the emotional part where you paid with the expectation that you'd pay more to see the story completed. Are you aware that us "entitled fans" as you call us keep the industry alive and not the creators? Are you aware that completed comics do more for the industry that incomplete comics?

Are you aware that if fans had known the comic wouldn't be completed, no one would have bought it in the first place?

You say this hurting comic bookstores is overblown? The time and money a comic store owner spends on a comic that is not completed is not negligible. The amount of money he loses displaying an unfinished comic no one wants to buy is not negligible. One of the reasons why comic bookstores close is because he has a whole bunch of products in his store he cannot sell. And the reason why he cannot sell them is because a lot of them are unfinished.

It is entitlement yes when you expect to get it on your terms and for the creators to go without pay.

And I am sorry but no you dont get to expect ANYTHING from that creators except the individual comics you just bought. When I buy milk from my local supermarket it is with the expectation of getting that one milk and nothing more. If they stop selling it I will buy it somewhere else and they Loose my sale, that is how it works.

So yes I will keep on calling it entitlement when people provide no evidence and claim Things like "less then 1 % percent of comics finish their storylines", "Almost all of the time when a series is delayed it is because of creators being bored" or "This is how it is my comicshoop and everywhere else" while at the same time ignoring actual numbers and facts.
These people ignore the MANY reasons for a comic not being monthly that has been stated several times now and claim their own needs outweigh that.


Putting your own desire for a comic above real life facts and people´s life is not something I agree with nor have a problem calling for fan entitlement.

Look I get it, we all want to get the comics we enjoy at a steady pace, but that desire should not be put above actual real life conditions.

Definition of entitlement:

en·ti·tle·ment
inˈtīdlmənt,enˈtīdlmənt/
noun
noun: entitlement; plural noun: entitlements

1. the fact of having a right to something.
"full entitlement to fees and maintenance should be offered"
synonyms: right, prerogative, claim;

2. permission, dispensation, privilege
"their entitlement to benefits"
the amount to which a person has a right.
"annual leave entitlement"
synonyms: right, prerogative, claim;

3. permission, dispensation, privilege
"their entitlement to benefits"
the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
"no wonder your kids have a sense of entitlement"

So it looks like you guys are using the 3rd definition while we see it as more of the 1st definition. Why do we see it as the 1st definition? Because our money keeps the industry alive, not the creators. We're keeping the industry alive because we want full completed stories. If that causes us to be defined by the 3rd definition of entitlement, so be it. Fans of other storytelling mediums can get a completed story: movie-lovers can get the entire story; book readers can get the entire story; lovers of stageplays can get the entire story; but comic fans can't expect to get it and when we complain, we are scorned for it. Excuse me for being entitled because I'm putting my money into a dying industry when I could easily spend my money on another storytelling medium that will give me a completed story.

[Maxpower00044]

There's some bananas shit getting thrown around in this thread. Maybe y'all need a new hobby.

I find myself saying this about CBR forums way too often. Hahah

If people want Image to operate more like DC or Marvel, maybe said people should just read DC or Marvel then. Don't come here with those ass backwards sensibilities and try to apply it to the great creator owned work that Image churns out year, after year.

[Bor]

If it has to do with health or family/friend emergencies I'm totally willing to accept a creator walking away or working slowly. Lord knows there's stuff more important than comics. As for industry realities, as a consumer, I could care less. If the industry can't handle the series then don't make it and try to profit off of it in the first place. Its not the customer's job to worry about industry realities anyway, if they invest in the story they should be able to read it to its finish, and I'm fine if the story is shortened given realities of making it, but just give it an arc and an ending. I understand its hard to make comics especially with economic realities, but its being used as way too much of crutch for a lot of unfinished and not even started announced work. Don't promote unless you can deliver.

As I said I understand this, but this not change my viewpoint: You as a consumer is not entitled to anthing other then the product you just bought. I agree its bad form to not give an ending but when I hear claims like less then 1% of comics from Image have a ending I just have to shake my head and I dont see why it would be unreasonable to ask for numbers to back up a claim like that. I also think its completely fair that you dont care about industry realities except when you, and I am not talking about you specifically Orpheus, use that as an excuse to demand creator put aside everthing else to deliver a montly book to you and ignore their own well beings and the conditions for the book they announced.

[Bor]

I do not understand where you say, "you expect creators to work without pay." I paid for his comic. Doesn't matter if he gets paid at the back end or whatever, I paid for his comic. And I am willing to pay more if he can complete his comic. So if people are paying for his comic, how can you say he's working without pay?

This was a specific point to why creators have to take a break and do jobs for the big two. They are not payed until later on so they have to take that break to make sure they have Money NOW and not 3-4 months from now.

[JFP]

Sure but that does really change my argument.

Yes, and many of the comics people are complaining about were abruptly cancelled monthly comics where there is no announcement.

As I stated before, American and Japanese comics rose from being cheap, disposable, easy to find, published on a regular schedule, and having simple stories with simple art. Unfortunately, the American comic book industry is going the way of the European comic book industry: beautiful art published in expensive 50 page hardcover albums every 2 years. Why should the American comic book industry be content to go the way of the Europeans? That's like expecting the European auto industry to go the way of the American auto industry. The model doesn't please consumers.

The industry is in decline. Finding methods that will make it revive rather than accepting methods that are responsible for the decline is ridiculous.

[Maxpower00044]

European Comics model > American Comics model

I for one welcome that change, if what you say is in fact true.

[Dark-Flux]

Not sure what sales data youve been looking at but the US comic market is currently better than its been since the mid 90s...

[JFP]

As I said I understand this, but this not change my viewpoint: You as a consumer is not entitled to anthing other then the product you just bought. I agree its bad form to not give an ending but when I hear claims like less then 1% of comics from Image have a ending I just have to shake my head and I dont see why it would be unreasonable to ask for numbers to back up a claim like that. I also think its completely fair that you dont care about industry realities except when you, and I am not talking about you specifically Orpheus, use that as an excuse to demand creator put aside everthing else to deliver a montly book to you and ignore their own well beings and the conditions for the book they announced.

You misread my post. I said 1% of my comic book collection was unfinished titles. I never said 1% of Image titles. Reread my post and you'll see.
[QUOTE=Bor;2228155]

I do not understand where you say, "you expect creators to work without pay." I paid for his comic. Doesn't matter if he gets paid at the back end or whatever, I paid for his comic. And I am willing to pay more if he can complete his comic. So if people are paying for his comic, how can you say he's working without pay?

QUOTE]

This was a specific point to why creators have to take a break and do jobs for the big two. They are not payed until later on so they have to take that break to make sure they have Money NOW and not 3-4 months from now.

So if a comic bookstore owner decides to abruptly stop ordering a title and says, "I'm gonna take a break from putting out this title. I need money NOW and not 3-4 months from now." and the creator complained, would the creator be an entitled whiner. It's only fair a retailer should be able to take off a product he's not making money off just like a creator can quit a comic he's not making money off, right?