should image comics actually enforce a deadline policy to make sure books actually come out?

[Joker]

I do not understand where you say, "you expect creators to work without pay." I paid for his comic. Doesn't matter if he gets paid at the back end or whatever, I paid for his comic. And I am willing to pay more if he can complete his comic. So if people are paying for his comic, how can you say he's working without pay?

I know that you're just ignoring me at this point, but for the sake of others and the conversation as a whole: this is exactly why I said you don't seem to understand how this industry, and specifically Image works.

A single issue of a comic book takes roughly one month to write, draw (mostly to draw) color and letter.

Then the comic book has to be printed, assembled, and shipped to stores where it is finally sold. You have to do this at least 3-4 times before you see any money when working at Image.

Here's a breakdown of how profitable it is to make an Image comic from Jim Zub of Skullkickers: http://www.comicsbeat.com/creator-sa...f-youre-lucky/

That, is how you're asking creators to work for free. Just because you want to pay for an issue of a comic does not mean that money is going to end up in the creators pocket. It also does not mean enough money will end up in their pocket that they can tell their spouse, children, landlord or mortgage company to suck it. People have responsibilities, and unfortunately, your interest in the next issue of Book B isn't that high on the list when you really get down to it.

That's why the word entitlement keeps coming up.

[Dark-Flux]

[QUOTE=JFP;2228178]You misread my post. I said 1% of my comic book collection was unfinished titles. I never said 1% of Image titles. Reread my post and you'll see.

So if a comic bookstore owner decides to abruptly stop ordering a title and says, "I'm gonna take a break from putting out this title. I need money NOW and not 3-4 months from now." and the creator complained, would the creator be an entitled whiner. It's only fair a retailer should be able to take off a product he's not making money off just like a creator can quit a comic he's not making money off, right?

Yes. And thats exactly what store owners do. They order what they can sell.

And retailers dont get paid on the back end. They get paid up front when a customer buys their stock.

[Joker]

So if a comic bookstore owner decides to abruptly stop ordering a title and says, "I'm gonna take a break from putting out this title. I need money NOW and not 3-4 months from now." and the creator complained, would the creator be an entitled whiner. It's only fair a retailer should be able to take off a product he's not making money off just like a creator can quit a comic he's not making money off, right?

To the bold part: That's not how retail works. Certainly not the comics direct market.

To the unbolded part: That's exactly how retail works.

[Bor]

What are you talking about regarding evidence for the 1%? I was saying I had hundreds of titles for my collection and 1% of those were completed. Why should I need evidence to prove that?

If you want to use those numbers as some sort of evidence to prove a point about unfinished stories then yeah I am going to need some evidence when it goes against common belief.

So if Kirkmanjust cancelled Invincible right now, you'd be fine with that? You'd be fine with not knowing how the series end? You'd say, "Well, I am fine that I spent hundreds of dollars without knowing how the story of Markus Grayson ends."? Perhaps you would. But why would you be think it's wrong for other fans to be mad that they spent hundreds of dollars not to know how the story ends?

I would be irratated for sure. Particularly if the Kirkman came out and said: "I never want to do it Again because I find the series boring now and I dont give a rats ass about my fans.". But that was never my argument. My argument is still, and has been so al alone, that when the series have been delayed, and boy that that has happened, I didnt have some bizarre belief that I deserved to get it each month nor was I mad at him. But I have never argued for that, my argument has always been that I dont agree the problem is as bad as some try to make it out to be, and that people should learn the difference between want to have and need to have

When you bought Invincible issue #1, were you paying on the expectation that Kirkman would complete the story?
Expectation: no. Hope yes. Let me give another example: Dynamo 5 was a series I bought and enjoyed with the hope of a complete satisfying ending. I never really got that but I can still go back and reread those other issues and enjoyed what I payed for.

The whole thing isn't about the monetary transaction only. It's also about the emotional part where you paid with the expectation that you'd pay more to see the story completed. Are you aware that us "entitled fans" as you call us keep the industry alive and not the creators? Are you aware that completed comics do more for the industry that incomplete comics?

No what keeps this industry alive is fans and not entitled fans. Entitled is putting other peoples Lifes and well beings above your own because you need to have your funny book.

Are you aware that if fans had known the comic wouldn't be completed, no one would have bought it in the first place?
Are you aware that is certaintly not true nor was it ever the argument?

You say this hurting comic bookstores is overblown? The time and money a comic store owner spends on a comic that is not completed is not negligible. The amount of money he loses displaying an unfinished comic no one wants to buy is not negligible. One of the reasons why comic bookstores close is because he has a whole bunch of products in his store he cannot sell. And the reason why he cannot sell them is because a lot of them are unfinished.

.

I NEVER said that. I said that anecdotal evidence that is not supported by facts nor numbers should not be but above those nor should there be a problem with providing evidence that this was the major problem alover and that Image was the one most at fault.

[JFP]

European Comics model > American Comics model

I for one welcome that change, if what you say is in fact true.

If you welcome that change, you're in the minority, guy. Few readers of American comics want to wait 2-3 years for an expensive 50 page hardcover album.

Not sure what sales data youve been looking at but the US comic market is currently better than its been since the mid 90s...

And how is it better? By an increase in comic bookstores? By the fact that the Big 2 doesn't dominate like they did in the 90s? By the fact that the average monthly these days can sell more than the average monthly in the 90s? By the fact that the general public respects comic books more these days than they did in the 90s? By the fact that the dominating demographic isn't older males like it was in the 90s? By the fact that the average creator can make more money working for the Big 2 than on his own comics? By the fact that the average US comic sells more globally than the average Japanese manga sells domestically?

[Dark-Flux]

If you welcome that change, you're in the minority, guy. Few readers of American comics want to wait 2-3 years for an expensive 50 page hardcover album.

And how is it better? By an increase in comic bookstores? By the fact that the Big 2 doesn't dominate like they did in the 90s? By the fact that the average monthly these days can sell more than the average monthly in the 90s? By the fact that the general public respects comic books more these days than they did in the 90s? By the fact that the dominating demographic isn't older males like it was in the 90s? By the fact that the average creator can make more money working for the Big 2 than on his own comics? By the fact that the average US comic sells more globally than the average Japanese manga sells domestically?

By the fact that if the industry is doing well and is in fact on the rise, more product continues to be produced and readers get to continue enjoying their hobby.

[Bor]

[QUOTE=JFP;2228178]You misread my post. I said 1% of my comic book collection was unfinished titles. I never said 1% of Image titles. Reread my post and you'll see.

So if a comic bookstore owner decides to abruptly stop ordering a title and says, "I'm gonna take a break from putting out this title. I need money NOW and not 3-4 months from now." and the creator complained, would the creator be an entitled whiner. It's only fair a retailer should be able to take off a product he's not making money off just like a creator can quit a comic he's not making money off, right?

Copy pasted from your post:

Unfortunately, there are far more incomplete comic book stories then there are completed ones. Years back, I looked in my garage and saw boxes with hundreds of titles. Less than 1% of those were from titles that had completed the story. I remember thinking, "God, what a waste. A whole bunch of titles that are incomplete. I can't get any enjoyment from rereading them. I can't get any money from them. Just thousands of dollars sunk down the drain." And I just threw all the incomplete stories into the recycling bin.

[B][/So yes you are right you did not mention Image but you did say less then 1 % of your titles had completed stories. if B]

[Bor]

[QUOTE=Dark-Flux;2228187]

You misread my post. I said 1% of my comic book collection was unfinished titles. I never said 1% of Image titles. Reread my post and you'll see.




Yes. And thats exactly what store owners do. They order what they can sell.

And retailers dont get paid on the back end. They get paid up front when a customer buys their stock.

Can I just say that your qoute makes it seem like his argument is mine?

[Bor]

I know that you're just ignoring me at this point, but for the sake of others and the conversation as a whole: this is exactly why I said you don't seem to understand how this industry, and specifically Image works.

A single issue of a comic book takes roughly one month to write, draw (mostly to draw) color and letter.

Then the comic book has to be printed, assembled, and shipped to stores where it is finally sold. You have to do this at least 3-4 times before you see any money when working at Image.

Here's a breakdown of how profitable it is to make an Image comic from Jim Zub of Skullkickers: http://www.comicsbeat.com/creator-sa...f-youre-lucky/

That, is how you're asking creators to work for free. Just because you want to pay for an issue of a comic does not mean that money is going to end up in the creators pocket. It also does not mean enough money will end up in their pocket that they can tell their spouse, children, landlord or mortgage company to suck it. People have responsibilities, and unfortunately, your interest in the next issue of Book B isn't that high on the list when you really get down to it.

That's why the word entitlement keeps coming up.

As a long time Batman fan I never thought I would say this but I agree completely with joker here.

[Joker]

And how is it better? By an increase in comic bookstores? By the fact that the Big 2 doesn't dominate like they did in the 90s? By the fact that the average monthly these days can sell more than the average monthly in the 90s? By the fact that the general public respects comic books more these days than they did in the 90s? By the fact that the dominating demographic isn't older males like it was in the 90s? By the fact that the average creator can make more money working for the Big 2 than on his own comics? By the fact that the average US comic sells more globally than the average Japanese manga sells domestically?

Aside from the bolded part, all of these sound like positives for a healthy industry.

The bold part, it's not that they make more at Marvel of DC, it's that they get an upfront page rate.

[Bor]

Aside from the bolded part, all of these sound like positives for a healthy industry.

The bold part, it's not that they make more at Marvel of DC, it's that they get an upfront page rate.

And usually a steady one compared to the low or Highs of doing creator owned works.

[Orpheus37]

I know that you're just ignoring me at this point, but for the sake of others and the conversation as a whole: this is exactly why I said you don't seem to understand how this industry, and specifically Image works.

A single issue of a comic book takes roughly one month to write, draw (mostly to draw) color and letter.

Then the comic book has to be printed, assembled, and shipped to stores where it is finally sold. You have to do this at least 3-4 times before you see any money when working at Image.

Here's a breakdown of how profitable it is to make an Image comic from Jim Zub of Skullkickers: http://www.comicsbeat.com/creator-sa...f-youre-lucky/

That, is how you're asking creators to work for free. Just because you want to pay for an issue of a comic does not mean that money is going to end up in the creators pocket. It also does not mean enough money will end up in their pocket that they can tell their spouse, children, landlord or mortgage company to suck it. People have responsibilities, and unfortunately, your interest in the next issue of Book B isn't that high on the list when you really get down to it.

That's why the word entitlement keeps coming up.

Everyone gets all that but its not an excuse, people still pay good money to read this stuff, and they get ripped off when the story isn't finished. ZUB understands that too. He brought skull kicker's to its conclusion even though it was barely profitable, he respected his readers, he's one of the good guys. Everyone gets that the reality of making and selling comics is not easy, but its no excuse to rip off fans and retailers.

[Joker]

Everyone gets all that but its not an excuse, people still pay good money to read this stuff, and they get ripped off when the story isn't finished. ZUB understands that too. He brought skull kicker's to its conclusion even though it was barely profitable, he respected his readers, he's one of the good guys. Everyone gets that the reality of making and selling comics is not easy, but its no excuse to rip off fans and retailers.

Nope. You paid for a single issue of a comic book and you got that. That's all your $4 buys you. Nothing else. You are owed nothing beyond that for which you paid.

[Orpheus37]

Nope. You paid for a single issue of a comic book and you got that. That's all your $4 buys you. Nothing else. You are owed nothing beyond that for which you paid.

Bad business and Poor character is what that is.

[Joker]

Bad business and Poor character is what that is.

No, it is the first and only rule of a financial transaction and nothing more.

Look, I'd love it if all stories could run their course. But that doesn't always happen. If I knowingly buy part 1 of something, I'm doing that of my own volition. There's no way to know if I'll get part 5 or 6 at the point that part 1 is released. This applies to anything, not just comics. It sucks when it doesn't happen, but if that's a risk you're not willing to take, and that's fine if you're not, then simply don't take it. You're making a choice, knowing full well all possibilities in play, and then crying when it isn't the one you wanted. That's poor character, if you ask me.

As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...