Detective Comics #938 preview/discussion (spoilers!)

[Lhynn]

Damian is literally mini-Bruce

Yes, its so often that we see batman acting like royalty and like everyone is inferior and should be serving him. Thats Bruce in a nutshell to you?

that's why the Damian-Dick partnership worked so well as it was the inversion of the Batman-Robin dynamic.

Id argue it wasnt an inversion of roles, more like a big brother little brother dynamic that had its own appeal.

As for Damian and Bruce they are both over-dramatic

A trait they share with the entirety of the hero community.

stubborn

Who isnt?

dominant personalities who are not expressive with their feelings

Actually Damian is a Tsundere, Bruce is just clumsy at social interactions.

but feel very deeply nonetheless

Who doesnt?

They place great importance on family

Like any other batfam member, and no more than jason actually.

(e.g., Bruce has a compulsory of adopting children which is mirrored by Damian's tendency to hord pets)

Wouldnt say its compulsory, tho he does want to take care of his family. Also nice comparing Robins to pets, really apt comparison there. To Bruce they are like sons, to Damian they are like toys.

And lastly this is how Morrsion describes him:"[Damian Wayne] has been raised by monsters and fiends

So nothing like Bruce.

but inside he’s really a good person because he’s the son of Batman and that’s who he really wants to be."

Note that he wants to be the son of batman, he doesnt want to become Bruce. And even if he did, he is still far too different for this to ever be a thing.

[Lhynn]

Briefly, on the robots - how do you know we would have seen them? When did we see the building of the cave? (My zero year knowledge is a bit weak, since I didn't enjoy that story and haven't reread it.)

In theory they mostly transport stuff thats assembled somewhere else and reassemble it there. And im betting if they had robots to do manual labor Alfred would have something to say about that.

I don't think actions - how they deal with their self-centeredness - really are the things that make one similar

Sure, and they do it in fundamentally different ways.

You can train someone to do everything you do, but if they do things for different reasons, all they are doing is mimicry, not actually being like you.

Completely agree with this. The thing is, Tim never wanted to be like bruce, but on every crossroad before him he had to concede that batmans logic is very hard to argue against, doing what bruce would have done in his place even if reluctantly. His development as a character is really interesting.

If someone's deepest responses and motivations are similar to another's, I would say they are similar to that person.

But are they? Their motivations run very different. Bruce is obsessed with gotham and crime fighting, (Also with family, but that seems to be a theme for every batfam member) for Damian its something else entirely.

Also...I don't see Damian hating the dark at all, really, until he finds people he cares about who are in the light

Bingo! The character does like an arc and finds himself completely different because he grew, Damians growth takes him somewhere opposite to Bruce. So not only do they start in radically different places, but they go in different directions too.

[irene]

Damian is literally mini-Bruce

Yes, its so often that we see batman acting like royalty and like everyone is inferior and should be serving him. Thats Bruce in a nutshell to you?

No, but then again that's just Damian's surface, and I think I gave you a pretty good explanation why I think my statement is correct concerning core personality. (And anyway that's just Damian feeling threatened and reacting with the old "the best defense is a good offense.")

that's why the Damian-Dick partnership worked so well as it was the inversion of the Batman-Robin dynamic.

Id argue it wasnt an inversion of roles, more like a big brother little brother dynamic that had its own appeal.

But the greatest appeal was still a happy-go-lucky Batman partnered with a grim Robin.

As for Damian and Bruce they are both over-dramatic

A trait they share with the entirety of the hero community.

Yes, but they still share it with each other, don't they?

stubborn

Who isnt?

Well, while I don't like Injustice, I think this pretty much sums it up (Bruce is talking to Dick):

dominant personalities who are not expressive with their feelings

Actually Damian is a Tsundere, Bruce is just clumsy at social interactions.

but feel very deeply nonetheless

Who doesnt?

You shouldn't separate these. I meant that they might appear to be cold and unfeeling, but they are actually very emotional. And definitely not everyone shares this trait, for example Clark and Dick are much more open with their regard and feelings.

They place great importance on family

Like any other batfam member, and no more than jason actually.

(e.g., Bruce has a compulsory of adopting children which is mirrored by Damian's tendency to hord pets)

Wouldnt say its compulsory, tho he does want to take care of his family. Also nice comparing Robins to pets, really apt comparison there. To Bruce they are like sons, to Damian they are like toys.

The last sentence is the most offensive thing you can say! (). Damian loves his pets, for example when he returns to Gotham whith Goliath, he has an reunion with all his pets for them to get to know each other. And in this case comparing pets to Robins is accurate, as they are both living beings that Bruce and Damian want to surround themselves and love -- and to be loved in return.

And I noticed that even you agreed that they show their affection trought actions, which is by the way also they way they express their anger and sorrow (and why they prefer punching people in the face!).

And lastly this is how Morrsion describes him:"[Damian Wayne] has been raised by monsters and fiends

So nothing like Bruce.

but inside he’s really a good person because he’s the son of Batman and that’s who he really wants to be."

Note that he wants to be the son of batman, he doesnt want to become Bruce. And even if he did, he is still far too different for this to ever be a thing.

No he doesn't want to be Bruce, he wants to be someone who can do and be good and help the world, e.g., Batman. (Un)suprisingly, that's another trait he shares with Bruce (and the rest of the hero community of course).

And what other things they have in common? Well...

[Lhynn]

No, but then again that's just Damian's surface, and I think I gave you a pretty good explanation why I think my statement is correct concerning core personality. (And anyway that's just Damian feeling threatened and reacting with the old "the best defense is a good offense.")

an entitled brat is the last thing i could ever think when thinking about bruce.

But the greatest appeal was still a happy-go-lucky Batman partnered with a grim Robin.

Sure? But light and dark being reversed is hardly a complete inversion of roles. Broad strokes.

Yes, but they still share it with each other, don't they?

Sure, but i was just illustrating the point that it doesnt matter.

Well, while I don't like Injustice, I think this pretty much sums it up (Bruce is talking to Dick):

Sure, broad strokes again.

You shouldn't separate these. I meant that they might appear to be cold and unfeeling, but they are actually very emotional. And definitely not everyone shares this trait, for example Clark and Dick are much more open with their regard and feelings.

Again, they have roots in different things and are like this for different reasons. This is like you saying that two things are the same just because they are wet (much like every other of your arguments)

The last sentence is the most offensive thing you can say! (). Damian loves his pets, for example when he returns to Gotham whith Goliath, he has an reunion with all his pets for them to get to know each other. And in this case comparing pets to Robins is accurate, as they are both living beings that Bruce and Damian want to surround themselves and love -- and to be loved in return.

Sorry, when you compare robin to a dog or a cow you lost me.

And I noticed that even you agreed that they show their affection trought actions, which is by the way also they way they express their anger and sorrow (and why they prefer punching people in the face!).

Similar traits for their very different personalities. You said you were talking about the core, but youve done nothing but talk about the surface.

No he doesn't want to be Bruce, he wants to be someone who can do and be good and help the world, e.g., Batman. (Un)suprisingly, that's another trait he shares with Bruce (and the rest of the hero community of course).

Anyone can be good and help the world. And again, you keep going to the surface.

And what other things they have in common? Well...

They have in common that they are father and son? yes i agree. As for the other things, again, surface, everyone in the super hero community, a lot of anti heroes and a few villains share this trait.

Im going to make it simple, because you dont seem to understand what core means.
At its core batman is drowned by guilt, a single event in his life fuels his obsession and everything else is secondary. He does not know how to have fun or be normal, he doesnt want to know either. For better or for worse being batman is his everything. It has been like this since that night where he lost his parents. He decided to go out and train and have people teach him everything, he decides on never stopping, no matter what. Bruce is effectively a mask for batman, not the other way around. This is the core of batman, this is what informs every single choice and interaction in his life.

Damian was born into privilege much like his father, but unlike Bruce this privilege got to him, hes been spending most of his life believing himself better than everyone. Batman is merely something cool to him, something he wants to be a part of, unlike Dick and Jason he has a choice and he chose this, but unlike Tim it wasnt due to a sense of duty or due to kindness, Damian went down this path because he simply thought it was cool, much like barbara and harper.
The arc we see in Damian is from someone born in the dark getting to know the brighter side of life, this is what fundamentally changes him as a human being. He gradually stops being his selfish and egotistical self and allows himself to love. So you see, and as i said before, not only did damian start in a very different place than bruce, but his arc took him in a completely different direction as well.

Sure they share some traits, and those very common traits are often put in a sentence to hammer the fact that Damian and Bruce are father and soon. But as personality goes, they could not be more different.

[millernumber1]

I have a serious problem with making someone's core what happened to them, rather than their fundamental drives. I still don't understand why the similarities in being profoundly self-centered, and reacting to trauma in the same way, doesn't meet the definition of "core." But I believe, according to the way you are articulating it, "core" is "upbringing," whereas for me, "core" is "fundamental personality, the way someone is born processing the world."

However, I think we've both exchange fairly detailed and well articulated explanations of why I think Bruce and Damian are very similar in personality, and why you think they are really different. I appreciate the time you've taken to explain.

[Lhynn]

I have a serious problem with making someone's core what happened to them, rather than their fundamental drives. I still don't understand why the similarities in being profoundly self-centered, and reacting to trauma in the same way, doesn't meet the definition of "core." But I believe, according to the way you are articulating it, "core" is "upbringing," whereas for me, "core" is "fundamental personality, the way someone is born processing the world."

You are born as a blank slate, your experiences and choices are what defines you.

However, I think we've both exchange fairly detailed and well articulated explanations of why I think Bruce and Damian are very similar in personality, and why you think they are really different. I appreciate the time you've taken to explain.

Same, its been fun.

[JLH]

I've had zero interest in Tim since the New 52 started but I'm really enjoying him in this title.

[Bergman]

Cause they want him to die in a series that doesn't suck. Killing off a popular character in a series everyone hates is an insult. Giving Tim some panel time in 'Tec and a likable persona before he dies temporarily will make his death seem more heroic and is less upsetting to his fans.

Ted Kord
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