Bring back the Justice Society of America/JSA!!!!

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I disagree. There's no intrinsic link between Batman and Robin in terms of name and visual identity, unlike say, Flash and Kid Flash, Aquaman and Aqualad etc. If you'd never heard of Batman and Robin before, you wouldn't know they had anything to do with each other.

If anything, the name Nightwing is more evocative of Batman (bats being nocturnal winged creatures) and the black/blue colour scheme is certainly more Batman-like than Robin's traditional red, green and yellow.

(I've always hated that Earth 2 Batman-Robin hybrid costume. So ugly! And no coherent theme!)

Regardless of the color scheme, people know both in the real world and in-universe that Robin is "Batman's sidekick" and that's all Dick would have been looked at if he had stayed as Robin into his adult years. And the Nightwing identity was actually inspired by Superman.

[Jim Kelly]

As Major Hoy points out, the grown-up Robin appears at the height of Bat-Mania. I'm sure that issue would have had some of the highest sales of any JLA comic, because the cover immediately gets across the idea. It's clearly Robin but now taking the place of Batman. The cover really wouldn't have worked to sell copies off the stands if 1) Dick was using a completely different name such as Nite-Owl and 2) the costume wasn't evocative of both Batman and Robin. There were actually three different versions of the costume over the space of two issues (55 and 56)--but that cover version is the most Batman-like.

I know that the Alex Ross Kingdom Come design is used for Tim, but this is the kind of outfit I think they could have given the grown-up Robin. Something close to Dr. Mid-Nite's costume design. I really didn't like the '70s redesign for Robin--it wasn't much of an improvement and seemed too busy.

[Lee]

Yeah, but that's not even Dick, that's Tim. And he wasn't even Robin in that look. He was Red Robin, which, despite the name, was an entirely separate identity. Damian had taken over the Robin role.

The costume originated with Dick Grayson in "Kingdom Come". I don't think the name Red Robin was ever actually used in the original Kingdom Come mini-series. I recall a character mentioning that Dick had gone back to his Robin identity.

[colonyofcells]

Maybe for clutter earth, dc might try to give new code names to Jay Garrick, alan scott and Prince Khufu. Prince Khufu might also need a new secret identity. Al Pratt can maybe go with the code name Mighty Atom to differentiate him from the silver age Atom.

[MajorHoy]

Given that I wasn't even born back in '81, no I wasn't. But I know the team.

And what I mean is that the JSA and the All-Star Squadron have had significant bleed-through through the years in terms of membership. Probably more so than any other team. Firstly, pretty much all of the core JSA members from Alan Scott and Jay Garrick to Ted Grant and Rex Tyler were members of the Squadron.

Well, duh! Didn't I already say that the All-Star Squadron was formed to include ALL the superheroes operating at that time?

Secondly, several members of the Squadron and their legacies then also became members of the JSA, including Jesse Chambers (the second Liberty Belle), Markus Clay (the second Amazing Man), Sonia Sato (the third Judomaster) and of course, Nate Heywood (the third person to be part of the Commander Steel legacy).

This is true . . . some legacy characters of people connected to the All-Star Squadron did eventually join the JSA when Geoff Johns had almost anybody and everybody join the group (which really wasn't a great move in the long run). But they aren't part of the original JSA legacy you keep harping on.

And regardless of ANY of this discussion, guess what? Nate was a member of the JSA before Flashpoint.

At present, how many people who were part of the JSA became members after Flashpoint?

And regardless of whether you think he should have been, bringing back the JSA with its modern incarnations intact (which is most preferable) involves also bringing him back.

But, again, YOU are the one talking about "bringing back the JSA with its modern incarnations intact" . . . what specifically has DC said on the matter?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Well, duh! Didn't I already say that the All-Star Squadron was formed to include ALL the superheroes operating at that time?

And I'm saying that there was substantial member sharing between the Squadron and the JSA, probably more so than there was with any other team.

This is true . . . some legacy characters of people connected to the All-Star Squadron did eventually join the JSA when Geoff Johns had almost anybody and everybody join the group (which really wasn't a great move in the long run). But they aren't part of the original JSA legacy you keep harping on.

Okay...the "JSA legacy" I'm referring to is just the basic history and incarnations of the team as it existed before Flashpoint. There is nothing in that that says "original" as in "only related to or descended from original members." You and I are using different definitions of legacy. You are referring to "legacy" as in "original members only" but that's not true legacy. That's nostalgia. I am using the definition that includes all subsequent iterations and experiences that the team has been through.

Even if you don't like that GJ brought them in in the first place, it doesn't change the fact that they ARE a part of the JSA just as much as any other member that joined up before Flashpoint.

At present, how many people who were part of the JSA became members after Flashpoint?

Well, none because the actual JSA doesn't exist post-Flashpoint. I don't even think the Earth-2 crew have ever referred to themselves as the JSA.

But, again, YOU are the one talking about "bringing back the JSA with its modern incarnations intact" . . . what specifically has DC said on the matter?

I'm saying that bringing the JSA with all their modern iterations/continuity intact is PREFERABLE. We saw the whole "back to basics" approach with the JLA and the whole "nobody but those seven were members" bullcrap and it proved pretty unpopular and just made the team seem empty. Like nothing had ever happened in this DC Universe that was worth taking note of. THAT is the true definition of legacy: the feeling that these characters, this universe has A HISTORY that is worthy of celebration. That is something the DC Universe had before Flashpoint, but is severely missing now.

And if the JSA (the team that's all about legacy) doesn't even have legacy, then what the hell?

[Jim Kelly]

I think there was a tipping point where, instead of enhancing the generational story of the Justice Society, the addition of so many new members (either totally new never before seen or from non-JSA things like Kingdom Come or the Shazam family) began to push that generational story to the side. It's like they diluted and diluted the vintage until there was no characteristic taste.

Before that tipping point, with storylines like Johnny Sorrow, they could make it work. Such stories referred back to the original generation and yet could move forward with the new generation. But after that tipping point, I felt like they lost their grasp of what the Justice Society was about.

[dr-brainwave]

This is the JSA DC should bring back...plus Alan Scott and Jay Garrick.

Yuck! no thanks! DC should bring back the real JSA:

[Trey Strain]

At this point, about the only way they could screw this up is by putting modern characters on the team to "improve" it.

Use modern characters in the stories, sure. But don't put them on the damned team.

[MajorHoy]

To me, the "legacy" aspect is more about who were the original members of the JSA, but also guys like the Star-Spangled Kid (Sylvester) who became a member and worked with the MAJORITY of the original members. Also people with family-ties like Power Girl (cousin of Superman) and Huntress (daughter of Batman) and those people who have taken up the names / the mantles of the originals (guys like Pieter Cross, Michael Holt, Courtney Whitmore, and Jakeem Thunder).
But when you start bringing in the sons/daughters/grandchildren of Golden Age characters who were never members of the JSA in the first place, their legacy is connected to the Golden Age in general, not to the JSA itself. The JSA is not "any character from the Golden Age".

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The costume originated with Dick Grayson in "Kingdom Come". I don't think the name Red Robin was ever actually used in the original Kingdom Come mini-series. I recall a character mentioning that Dick had gone back to his Robin identity.

Regardless, I would rather have Dick as Nightwing and keep all of the characters that came after him as Robin. That way the Robin mantle becomes a legacy. If Dick had remained Robin then how would Jason, Tim, and Damian all fit into the Bat-family?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yuck! no thanks! DC should bring back the real JSA:

Those guys will exist, but a good amount of them are retired. Last I saw of Rex Tyler there on the right there before Flashpoint, he was retired living with his wife and providing logistical support for his son Rick...the new Hourman. I would prefer to keep it that way. Its would be good to show that the developments from before the New 52 may still be intact.

[Trey Strain]

Oh. and they could also screw it up by giving them a limited mission.

So there are two ways they could screw this up.

1. Putting modern characters on the team.

2. Giving the team a limited mission.

I think the odds are pretty high that they'll do one or both of those things.

[dr-brainwave]

Those guys will exist, but a good amount of them are retired. Last I saw of Rex Tyler there on the right there before Flashpoint, he was retired living with his wife and providing logistical support for his son Rick...the new Hourman. I would prefer to keep it that way. Its would be good to show that the developments from before the New 52 may still be intact.

To be honest i have zero interest in Rick Tyler, i want to read about The real Hourman Rex Tyler, his son doesn't interest me.

As for the pre Flashpoint JSA, most of the original key members were dead (even Alan Scott) and you see thats a major problem, Jay Garrick was the last founding member in the team.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Regardless, I would rather have Dick as Nightwing and keep all of the characters that came after him as Robin. That way the Robin mantle becomes a legacy. If Dick had remained Robin then how would Jason, Tim, and Damian all fit into the Bat-family?

Earth-Two Robin was the only Robin while the multiple Robins are main Earth, Helena went strait to Huntress before the subpar New 52 Earth Two never had Dick Grayson as Robin, Thomas Wayne became Batman, and Helena was Robin before becoming Huntress.