Diversity in the Batman line

[Punisher007]

It's really funny that no one ever makes these kinds of arguments when it comes to White characters. No one ever argues that a writer introducing a new White character is just "diversity for diversity's sake." They never say that the writer is just "being PC" or "pandering." These types of comments only come up when we're talking about new female or minority characters. Is that a blatant double standard, Oh Heaven's yes.

[darkseidpwns]

Eh there's plenty of diversity in Batman's world both in terms of villains and supporting characters,writers just have to tap in to it.

[Kid A]

This, pretty much.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a white male, but when I read comics, race is the last thing that pops into my head. I couldn't care less if the character had pale skin or dark skin, I couldn't care less if their mother was Irish and their father was Chinese. I certainly don't get attached to characters because of relatability. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I don't go leaping off buildings catching criminals every evening.

I'm not remotely white, and I don't really care either. I mean obviously I would have a problem if everyone in the DCU was white, but obviously we know DC and Marvel don't want that to happen and have the initiative to diversify, which is good enough for me.

[Tupiaz]

I'll take a crack at answering that! (Bearing in mind that my "evidence" goes back to long before Flashpoint, and thus the "historical facts" might well have mutated into something else in the modern New 52 continuity.)

Denny O'Neil is the guy who created Talia and Ra's back in the early 70s. A couple of decades later, he wrote a graphic novel called "Birth of the Demon" which showed us the origin story of Ra's al Ghul (his first discovery of the Lazarus Pit phenomenon, for instance). In that one, it was stated that Ra's met Talia's mother at the famous Woodstock event. The lady was of mixed Chinese/Arabic heritage, as I recall. I tend to take that as definitive since O'Neil was the original writer for Ra's and his daughter, and thus ought to know more about the family background than anyone else does. Also, he was also the editor in charge of the Batman group of titles all through the 1990s, so it stands to reason that he expected his own graphic novel to be Totally Canonical at the time it was published. (Granted, in the New 52 continuity, who knows how much has changed?)

"Birth of the Demon" also indicated that Ra's al Ghul was born and raised hundreds of years ago in a city somewhere in North Africa. (The city was not named for us; apparently it is no longer inhabited.) No telling how long his family had lived in that region -- he might have Berber blood, Moorish blood, Egyptian blood, who knows?

But if we arbitrarily assume Ra's is practically "pure Arab" in his genetic heritage (which I doubt), and that Talia's mother was a simple half-and-half mixture of Arab and Chinese (which may not be the accurate percentages), that would give us something along these lines:

Talia would be 3/4 Arab (from three grandparents out of four), and 1/4 Chinese (through one of her mommy's parents).

If so, then Damian would be about 3/8 Arab, 1/8 Chinese, and the other 4/8 would be whatever Bruce Wayne's own racial/ethnic heritage is. (Heavy on the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant ancestry, I expect, although at least one Bronze Age story indicated that he is a direct descendant of a bunch of Waynes who were successively the lords of an old castle in Scotland, which is not necessarily the same thing as "Anglo-Saxon" per se.)

I have read the stories. I forgot the Woodstock part. She also said that her mother reminded his father of wife. The northern parts of Africa is populate more by what many would define as arabs (they also speak arabic in many of the countries) than the more typical African black man which is more seen south of Sahara desert.

Wayne is a typical English name and not a Scottish name. You can find some information here however it seems like it is not working at the moment.

I'm seeing some comments on how diversity is not important and how people only care about the story... I grew up in New Jersey and frequently made trips to Philadelphia and New York. Anyone who lives in this area of the country knows how diverse it is especially in the Metropolitan areas that Gotham represents. If you can read a Batman story without thinking about diversity then good for you, but for me diversity is crucial to Batman's team. It is no secret that many inner cities have trouble with violence and high murder rates, and many times minorities are the victims of these crimes. My point is that if Gotham resembles anything like a typical American city, it would have its share of minority people who have either witnessed or have been victims of violent crime. The theme of many Bat characacters is that they had troubled and violent upbringings, and their experiences made them determined to become heroes. Well guess what, a lot of the people experiencing the most violent upbringings in crime ridden neighborhoods are minorities. In the world of Batman, it is ludcricrous that the inner cities are barely addressed and that there are no minority characters responding to their own tragedy like Bruce or Dick. I'm not saying I think every minority character should come from an inner city or have a harsh upbringing, that would just be stereotyping. They should obviously come from all walks of life just like the white characters.

The point is not if there could or should be a good superhero by realism. If you want to take that aspect into a count then you also have to take into a count that both "coloured" (in lack of better terms not trying to be a douche nor a racist) and white people keep to them selves because many thinks this is safest. A clear sign for this is for instance Chinatown. Therefore the interaction Bruce has with coloured people can therefore be logical limited.

1. Circus has to origins (there is some dispute). Some believe the modern circus is tracked back to England and gives credit to Philip Astley. Others think it should be tracked back to Romans (DC has or at least did so when making Grayson Roman). It makes perfect sense that Grayson is white (even though Romans by some aren't seen as white).
2. Imagine if Jason Todd had a black or any "coloured" background and was caught stealing and it was done today. The racism card would be played before the story was even printed. Would that be a smart move?
3. Damian Wayne is Bruce child so of cause he would be partly white.
4. Barbara Gordon is the child of James Gordon who is white and lived in a non mixed relationship therefore Barbara is logical white. Sure you could have made James Gordon "coloured" and thereby making Barbara "coloured".

4 pretty good reason why characters are white and not "coloured".

[Lorendiac]

It's really funny that no one ever makes these kinds of arguments when it comes to White characters. No one ever argues that a writer introducing a new White character is just "diversity for diversity's sake."

If a comic book superhero team with its own ongoing title had previously been 100 percent "persons of color," and then after 10 or 20 years the team roster finally gained its first white member, then I bet that lots of readers (white or not) would find this "highly significant" and would talk about this "move toward greater diversity in the regular cast" at great length! They might like it or they might dislike it, but they'd certainly find it a noteworthy change of pace!

Offhand, though, I'm not sure it's ever happened that way. And somehow it's not nearly as exciting to talk about "this new superhero called Aztek must be the 40th white recruit to ever join the Justice League," or whatever the number actually was when he signed up during Grant Morrison's run in the late 90s.

[Brave Sir Robin]

It's crazy how a line of comic books based around the idea of a rich white man imposing his own ideals and beliefs upon basically the entire world through physical force and economic dominance would have a diversity problem.

LMAO. That is pretty funny.

[Iron Mike]

I love the idea of mixed up Robins: in my mind Jason is always a freckly redhead of 2nd generation Irish stock and Dick a dark eyed dark skinned Roma with obvious Eastern Euro, almost even Indian features. I never knew about Tim being Jewish but that's awesome too, I'll go with that.

Diversity is much of the reason I hope the Incorporated crowd continue to appear throughout the line. When Morrison introduced the Australian aborigine Ranger I cheered and high fived him in my astral form.

Amen. That's how I think of Dick and Jason. Tim as Jewish is interesting too. And Damian is Middle Eastern.

Stephanie Brown, who I love to death, could easily be Hispanic and still look exactly the same.

Luke Fox is a welcome addition.

Bring back Michael Lane Azrael.

Also, I don't understand why they didn't keep Batman Inc as an anthology series. That added a lot to the diversity. And the characters were all awesome.

I really hope to see some of them (Wl Gaucho) in Grayson. Spyral connections and all.

[Bruce Wayne]

It's really funny that no one ever makes these kinds of arguments when it comes to White characters. No one ever argues that a writer introducing a new White character is just "diversity for diversity's sake." They never say that the writer is just "being PC" or "pandering." These types of comments only come up when we're talking about new female or minority characters. Is that a blatant double standard, Oh Heaven's yes.

Society has taught us the default setting for all characters is white straight male. Female, black, hispanic, asian, bi, gay, trans,etc are all considered outside of the norm.

[Orpheus]

[QUOTE The point is not if there could or should be a good superhero by realism. If you want to take that aspect into a count then you also have to take into a count that both "coloured" (in lack of better terms not trying to be a douche nor a racist) and white people keep to them selves because many thinks this is safest. A clear sign for this is for instance Chinatown. Therefore the interaction Bruce has with coloured people can therefore be logical limited. QUOTE]

No, I don't believe Bruce would have limited interactions with minorities. Crime is spread through every race of people, and I think its safe to say that when Batman takes on crime; he does not simply only take on crime related to whites. Batman would go take on crime in any area no matter what the dominant ethnicity of the neighborhood is, and therefore his influence should be spread and be inspiring to people from all types of races and ethnicities.

sorry that i messed up the quote thing.

[dahllaz]

This, pretty much.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a white male, but when I read comics, race is the last thing that pops into my head. I couldn't care less if the character had pale skin or dark skin, I couldn't care less if their mother was Irish and their father was Chinese. I certainly don't get attached to characters because of relatability. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I don't go leaping off buildings catching criminals every evening.

Well, sure. A white male is the default representation. In comics, in books, in TV shows, in movies. You don't have to think about it, because the white male hero is everywhere you look.

[JaggedFel]

Well, sure. A white male is the default representation. In comics, in books, in TV shows, in movies. You don't have to think about it, because the white male hero is everywhere you look.

Pretty Much This.

[Tupiaz]

Well, sure. A white male is the default representation. In comics, in books, in TV shows, in movies. You don't have to think about it, because the white male hero is everywhere you look.

In the western world where white are the dominant ethnic group yes. However in India Bollywood has Indian actors, in China Cheese actors, in Nigeria (the Second biggest movie industry only behind India), in Japan Japaness are the stars. You are viewing this from a western viewpoint. It is the same all over the world the dominant ethnic group will always be the most used in art regardless of the place.

No, I don't believe Bruce would have limited interactions with minorities. Crime is spread through every race of people, and I think its safe to say that when Batman takes on crime; he does not simply only take on crime related to whites. Batman would go take on crime in any area no matter what the dominant ethnicity of the neighborhood is, and therefore his influence should be spread and be inspiring to people from all types of races and ethnicities.

sorry that i messed up the quote thing.

That Bruce would have limited interaction with other ethnic groups doesn't mean he would only save white people. Never did I said that. Interaction is here thought of as who Bruce deals with as Bruce in his civilian life which would most often be rich white males like him self. For instance at charities parties. Who Batman protects and who he beats up doesn't really matter for his interactions with people on a personal level.

[Orpheus]

In the western world where white are the dominant ethnic group yes. However in India Bollywood has Indian actors, in China Cheese actors, in Nigeria (the Second biggest movie industry only behind India), in Japan Japaness are the stars. You are viewing this from a western viewpoint. It is the same all over the world the dominant ethnic group will always be the most used in art regardless of the place.



That Bruce would have limited interaction with other ethnic groups doesn't mean he would only save white people. Never did I said that. Interaction is here thought of as who Bruce deals with as Bruce in his civilian life which would most often be rich white males like him self. For instance at charities parties. Who Batman protects and who he beats up doesn't really matter for his interactions with people on a personal level.

Okay that was genuine misunderstanding on my part. Still, nevertheless, the idea that Bruce conducts business with mostly white people does not justify the fact that the people he fights crime with are predominantly white. His business life and crime fighting life are two different things (usually, not lately). So I don't see the your argument as an adequate excuse for the lack of diversity.

[dahllaz]

In the western world where white are the dominant ethnic group yes. However in India Bollywood has Indian actors, in China Cheese actors, in Nigeria (the Second biggest movie industry only behind India), in Japan Japaness are the stars. You are viewing this from a western viewpoint. It is the same all over the world the dominant ethnic group will always be the most used in art regardless of the place.

Yes, you're correct. I am very much looking at it from the Western viewpoint and I do need to remember that US does not equel everywhere.

But considering DC is a US based company I think the western viewpoint applies to the Batman line.
And white is the dominant ethnic group in the US, and a large part of that is because those in power (whites) built the nation on the back of genocide and slavery. That the US is not actively owning people or slaughtering them does not mean the culture created from that legacy is not still hanging on tight to the reins of power.
We should be working to do better. Not just keeping the status quo.

[Tupiaz]

Yes, you're correct. I am very much looking at it from the Western viewpoint and I do need to remember that US does not equel everywhere.

But considering DC is a US based company I think the western viewpoint applies to the Batman line.
And white is the dominant ethnic group in the US, and a large part of that is because those in power (whites) built the nation on the back of genocide and slavery. That the US is not actively owning people or slaughtering them does not mean the culture created from that legacy is not still hanging on tight to the reins of power.
We should be working to do better. Not just keeping the status quo.

Do better what? A better society where everybody should be judge on his or her merits and not gender and/or colour? Sure.
Should DC do better as company at this? I don't know how well DC is doing here or who much they can improve. But hopefully they are not like LA Clippers.
Should DC do better stories? YES! Do better stories mean more equal gender/race representation? NO! It if is natural and it feels right sure. But many times it seems like many characters is made or turned into the blacks just for the heck of it. With no real idea or purpose. Often it seems pointless and doesn't do the story any good. If that is the case it makes more damage than good since black characters are turned into characters created out of pity rather out of creativity.

Okay that was genuine misunderstanding on my part. Still, nevertheless, the idea that Bruce conducts business with mostly white people does not justify the fact that the people he fights crime with are predominantly white. His business life and crime fighting life are two different things (usually, not lately). So I don't see the your argument as an adequate excuse for the lack of diversity.

actually it does. Look how I went over some of the most famous of Batman's partners.