Diversity in the Batman line

[Brian from Canada]

there is a dire need for minority Americans in comics as well

Dire as you may believe it to be, the real truth about comics is that it's not as big an industry as one might think. Yes, DC may aim for 52 monthlies, but those aren't written by 52 different people; certain voices dominate, and those are voices selected from the many, many writers of independent comics and other media who seem to be able to strike a chord with the (small) audience today — from all over. They aren't a uniform bunch, but those who complain about the lack of diversity tend to treat them as if they are.

The same happens in movies too. Look at the interview with the director of Punisher: War Zone elsewhere on CBR. She talks about a boys club, lumping in all the big directors, but there's a strong distinction in voice between someone like Quentin Tarantino and Woody Allen. Either you judge them based on their talent, or you judge them by their appearance – but please don't complain about the latter when it's the former that gets them hired.

[Brian from Canada]

Is Clark a carnal creature, or is he just in love with the idea of being in love with Earth women?

New 52 establishes Clark wants romance more than hookups. But there is clearly an attraction to the opposite gender: Lana, Lois and Diana.

Hawkman was married last time I looked.

Not in the New 52. He's single. And he was clearly sleeping with his boss' daughter before DC decided to rework the character for Justice League Of America.

The thing is these characters mostly came from a time when it was taboo to be gay.

And, more importantly, heterosexuality is still a key sign of macho heroism. You've never seen an action movie where the lead – Stallone, Schwarzneggar, Statham – defeats the bad guy so he can get back to his boyfriend.

Tim is really the only A-List character still young enough and clumsy enough with females to be revealed as gay.

Nope. Superboy is far more awkward with the ladies than Robin. Tim's biggest problem is that, in New 52 time, he hasn't really had much of a chance at a normal relationship: in the last eighteen months, his parents went into witness protection, he lived with Bruce, became Robin, got pushed out as Robin, and set up shop in New York to save other teens being hunted – at which point they've been on the run the entire time. Also, all the female characters in Teen Titans are clearly attracted to him — not to Kon or Jon.

Poison Ivy has had a lot of bi moments, as has Catwoman.

Has Selina been shown in bed with another woman? One of the points male directors have noted over the years is that straight girls aren't afraid to say that they share moments which men would find too intimate (like being in the bathroom at the same time or sleeping in the same bed without sexual contact). Ivy — Batgirl Annual 2 just solidified Ivy has real problems with relationships because of her seasonal emotional imbalances.

All female characters created by Chris Claremont are lesbians.

Huh? All of Claremont's female characters are straight and shown with interest in men except Karma, who's homosexuality isn't hinted at very well under Claremont's pen. She isn't defined as homosexual until much later, when meeting up with Kitty at the bar she's working at.

[Brian from Canada]

Constantine is bi.

It's never been suggested that New 52 Constantine is bi. He had a sexual relationship with Nightmare Nurse and Zatanna in the past, and is suggested at sleeping with Lady Sargon, but that's about it.

[SilverZeal]

Watevr happnd 2 ORPHEUS or is it only minority xcters crea8d by Caucasian writers dat r allwd devlpmnt & progression?

Bring back Michael Lane and let David Hine write him

SUPERB!

Cassandra and Stephanie. Yeah, I ship them.

Co-signd!

It's one reason why I think Tim Drake should come on out already as gay.

Agrd!

[SilverZeal]

Losing Oracle was the only loss to me. Going back to Batgirl so quickly made sense from a marketing stance, but it took away a lot of the strides forward with the character.


Even if it's poorly written? Batwing was poor from the start: no back story to define why he belongs as a Bat early on, no clear enemies that weren't tied to Gotham… it was Batman Inc.'s agent, not a separate hero.

If u say dat den u defin8ly didnt truely read Batwing frm d very start whn Zavimbe(a police officer/ former child soldier in a fictional country of Tinasha) was d Batwing looong b4 Luke Fox tuk ovr.

If you want to have a solo book, you need to have a reason for that solo character to be operating on their own — and a lead that's worth reading. That's been DC's biggest problem with all its characters, black or not: the leads are either not very enticing as heroes in this version and/or the need for the book to exist is absent.

Quite frankly, I don't want a BLACK BAT. There's enough Bats as there is (and Batwing already fills that niche). Let's have a new, original black character who is written well — or, better yet, an existing black character who is given a treatment that makes a solo book worthwhile.

AZRAEL....thoough he cud b playd by an Asian male(nt half-Caucasian...as if being part-whyt is a qualifying factor) since DC currntly has ZERO asian male heros in d NU 52 frm wat we/SZ can tell.

[Dabpool]

It's been suggested through out the New 52 series that Constantine, Zatanna and Nick Nerco are in a love triangle and in issue 12 he kisses Nick in a very erotic magic casting thing and he was always written Bi

[Orpheus]

Dire as you may believe it to be, the real truth about comics is that it's not as big an industry as one might think. Yes, DC may aim for 52 monthlies, but those aren't written by 52 different people; certain voices dominate, and those are voices selected from the many, many writers of independent comics and other media who seem to be able to strike a chord with the (small) audience today — from all over. They aren't a uniform bunch, but those who complain about the lack of diversity tend to treat them as if they are.

The same happens in movies too. Look at the interview with the director of Punisher: War Zone elsewhere on CBR. She talks about a boys club, lumping in all the big directors, but there's a strong distinction in voice between someone like Quentin Tarantino and Woody Allen. Either you judge them based on their talent, or you judge them by their appearance – but please don't complain about the latter when it's the former that gets them hired.

First of all, this is not a comparable example, you're talking about actual individuals versus fictional characters who writers can choose to give depth and development too.

Plus, I don't think anyone is complaining about a filmmaker that is the caliber of Woody Allen or Tarantino. The problem is that there is a lot of average white male talent getting big assignments while great female and minority talents are being ignored.

[Brian from Canada]

If u say dat den u defin8ly didnt truely read Batwing frm d very start whn Zavimbe(a police officer/ former child soldier in a fictional country of Tinasha) was d Batwing looong b4 Luke Fox tuk ovr.

I've read every single issue of the New 52. David's backstory isn't really strong there, and I suspect it's because there's a strong assumption the readers would already be familiar with him from his Batman Inc./pre-52 days.

The former child soldier is an excellent story, but it goes nowhere in Batwing: David isn't fighting warlords bent on trying to conquer the country with child soldiers and second-hand criminal tech bought on the black market — which, incidentally, would be an amazing way to take a story. Instead, he's chasing paths back to Gotham, where Penguin has bought a nuclear bomb (any Bat could stop that in a few panels). Zavimbe's final story is the worst of the bunch because, confronted with the corruption quite clearly, he doesn't seek out a way to penalize those who are corrupt, he gives in. He walks away from the costume. He lets the status quo basically remain the same.

When you start with Batwing 1 and no knowledge of what comes before, the book just doesn't hold up well. And sales reflected that.

[Brian from Canada]

this is not a comparable example, you're talking about actual individuals versus fictional characters who writers can choose to give depth and development too.

No, it's comparable to say that comics have less people in charge than movies or television. Marvel and DC's architect systems basically show there's maybe 10 people in charge of giving those characters their direction.
Those who complain about diversity focus on a few examples — Batman, the Justice League, etc. — without realizing the scope of what they are talking about.
When complaints are directed at Hollywood over sexism or racism in the hiring of directors, it doesn't point to the average directors who's names you can't remember: it focuses on the elites because the idea being sold is that there is a homogeneous club at the centre that is sacred, male and white.

There aren't that many "big" assignments in Hollywood: there are many more non-blockbusters being made than blockbusters, and those that are being made into blockbusters often pick their director because (a) the studio wants an actor who wants a director they worked with on a non-blockbuster film, (b) the studio sees the director as a proven earner, or (c) the studio sees something in the director.

"Great" is a subjective term, especially in Hollywood. If you want to be a great director, prove it by directing something. (This comes from James Cameron, who I saw talk to film students.) Actions speak louder than words — especially failures. Create a project people will believe in and support.

Some of the best movies in American film history were not made by studios or with total studio support. Monty Python hit up Britain's rock stars. Melvin Van Peebles (Sweet Sweetback's Badassss Song) maxed himself out and got Bill Cosby to invest. Hell, Kevin Smith sold his comic collection, maxed out his cards and slept in the video store to make Clerks, but he proved he could do it enough to get a much larger budget from the studio for his next project. And it's still going on today: Spike Lee went to Kickstarter to help fund his next movie.

It's a lot harder to give someone millions of dollars to make a movie when you don't trust they can make it back for you. Is there some prejudice? Most likely. But is there a push to get smaller, independent films done to get the attention of the producers and show them what they are missing? Not really either.

[oasis1313]

Kickstarter is a great idea.

[wyze2099]

I dont know I think Steph much like Jason is held down by not being exceptional in anything. Dick: Elite Leader (Gone) but Still World Class Gymnast, Babs was World Class at Computer Science/Engineering, Tim is apparently a beast at robotics now and was introduced as good detective, Cass was a World Class Fighter. Steph....

I'm reminded of the entry for Stephanie Brown at TvTropes.org. One of the tropes associated with her is "Overshadowed By Awesome", which basically points out that by the time of her Batgirl tenure, Steph was probably a better martial artist than pretty much anyone in real life ... but because she fought crime in Gotham, she ended up being seen as mediocre at best. Personally, I think it might also have something to do with the fact that she started out in the Robin comics as a rookie with more guts than common sense or training, and that became her default characterization in people's minds, regardless of how much she's leveled up since then. I mean, she spent a significant amount of time learning from/sparring with Cassandra Cain. Learning how to keep up with Cass is going to do wonders for her speed and technique, to say nothing of her understanding of tells.

[Ebon]

I'm not talking about the makeup of Bruce's long established circle. I get how that came about and I'm not crazy about changing established characters races/ethnicities either. I'm talking about everything outside of Batman and his immediate sphere is generic as hell.

Well, nobody has ever accused DC of being great at world-building. There are two classes of people in DC books: The Heroes and Everyone Else, and Everyone Else is not the focus of stories. It's only in the last few years that we ever even gotten a map of Gotham City, and there are no 'official' maps of any other DC fictional city, ever, just in case a writer needs to put in a 700-story skyscraper that never previously existed in Central City because he thought of a cool story that required such a thing. In some cases, its good a writer does this, because it leaves him room to grow. In a shared-world thing like a comic book, though, it's just silly after a time that we don't have definitive maps of some places with some consistent place names.

[Orpheus]

I'm reminded of the entry for Stephanie Brown at TvTropes.org. One of the tropes associated with her is "Overshadowed By Awesome", which basically points out that by the time of her Batgirl tenure, Steph was probably a better martial artist than pretty much anyone in real life ... but because she fought crime in Gotham, she ended up being seen as mediocre at best. Personally, I think it might also have something to do with the fact that she started out in the Robin comics as a rookie with more guts than common sense or training, and that became her default characterization in people's minds, regardless of how much she's leveled up since then. I mean, she spent a significant amount of time learning from/sparring with Cassandra Cain. Learning how to keep up with Cass is going to do wonders for her speed and technique, to say nothing of her understanding of tells.

Yeah that's a good point.

[Orpheus]

Well, nobody has ever accused DC of being great at world-building. There are two classes of people in DC books: The Heroes and Everyone Else, and Everyone Else is not the focus of stories. It's only in the last few years that we ever even gotten a map of Gotham City, and there are no 'official' maps of any other DC fictional city, ever, just in case a writer needs to put in a 700-story skyscraper that never previously existed in Central City because he thought of a cool story that required such a thing. In some cases, its good a writer does this, because it leaves him room to grow. In a shared-world thing like a comic book, though, it's just silly after a time that we don't have definitive maps of some places with some consistent place names.

Yeah there should be a sense of a greater world, after all, these heroes are popular for saving people, so lets see more of that and get a taste for the bigger world. If the writers want to put in a giant skyscraper, then by all means they should, but everyone should have some context for the city they are writing about. Personally, I think that will make for stronger stories.

[Lorendiac]

There's no natural law requiring that Alfred and/or Gordon be at the "center" of things in any given story arc. Heck, even in cases where both of them get lots of dialogue before the story concludes, often talking to Batman, that doesn't mean they are in a uniquely "central position." After all, Jeph Loeb's lengthy epics "The Long Halloween" and "Dark Victory" both gave plenty of time onstage to each of those men, but I didn't get the feeling that they were "two of the three most important figures in these story arcs set in and around Gotham City." They were just members of the regular cast -- as were Harvey Dent, Selina Kyle, various members of the Falcone family, various other suspects for the role of "mysterious serial killer," not to mention Dick Grayson (in "Dark Victory," at least), and so on and so forth.

Villains aren't part of the regular cast.

Really? Why not?

It seems to me that if a character appears in every episode of a series (or maybe all but one or two of them) over a year or more, he is a "regular" in that series during that run. It doesn't matter if the character is "heroic," "villainous," or "a neutral civilian"; it only matters that he shows up often enough to qualify as "a regular face in the cast."

Harvey Dent was a key character in the 13-part "The Long Halloween" and again in the 13-part "Dark Victory" -- so I call him a "regular" in those two miniseries. I agree that he's not usually treated as a "regular" in the core Batman titles, because he doesn't usually show up in every single issue of "Batman" or "Detective Comics" for a year or more at a stretch, but I wasn't talking about the "ongoing monthly titles"; I was only talking about two 13-part miniseries that were each written by Jeph Loeb.

Orpheus completely missed my point. Alfred and Jim Gordon don't have to be there in every issue, but they are the central points by which The Batman operates from.

The first time around, it was hard to follow exactly what you meant when you said:

the family has to centre around Bruce Wayne, Alfred Pennyworth and Jim Gordon.

Which might be why Orpheus, in your opinion, didn't get it right on the first try.

At first glance, your original comments on the subject could easily be taken to mean "Alfred and Jim Gordon are inherently more important to Batman's ongoing stories than are any other members of his supporting cast. This implies that they must play major roles in practically every issue in order to keep things properly 'centered.' Without them, it just wouldn't have that authentic 'Batman feel' in the storytelling if Batman wasn't almost constantly rubbing shoulders with one or the other of those 'central members' of his Bat-family."

That may not be exactly what you meant, but it was a very natural interpretation of the statement that the family was centered around those three men.

Now you appear to be saying it doesn't matter if they are in lots of issues or not -- they are still "central" even when they are offstage and the reader doesn't see them doing anything in particular for months at a time? That's an interesting definition of "central!"

Remember, Orpheus did point out that there was a time (the last few years before "Infinite Crisis" ended and "One Year Later" began) when Jim Gordon was not Commissioner; a black man named Michael Akins was filling that role instead; and Batman was able to keep moving forward, working closely with the GCPD on various cases, without missing a beat! Jim Gordon is an old and dear friend of his, but not "indispensable."

Heck, even in other eras when Gordon wasn't commissioner of the GCPD, and when the current commissioner wasn't solidly in Batman's corner, I've still seen Batman manage to do very well in several consecutive stories. (This is particularly easy when Babs is being Oracle and is giving him instant access to every relevant scrap of data stored in GCPD computers and other law enforcement databases.)

On a similar note, there have been times when Alfred was not living at Wayne Manor for months at a stretch -- not even as a "background presence who scarcely gets mentioned" -- and Bruce Wayne still managed to feed himself three square meals a day and keep his clothes laundered and so forth.

In fact, back in the Silver Age, I believe there was a span of a few years in which Alfred Pennyworth was supposed to be dead and buried -- but Bruce and Dick managed to keep going without his support at home. (Then it turned out he'd accidentally been turned into a scary supervillain called "The Outsider," but he made a full recovery in the end and went back to his old job.)

So I think the evidence says that while Batman is very fond of his friends Jim and Alfred, and while they often do things which make his life a little easier in one way or another, he doesn't need them to always be "central points" of his life; if they die or retire or go off on a long sabbatical or something, he will find ways to keep fighting the good fight without their active assistance!