Nightwing #3 Preview/Discussion

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

I honestly would probably drop the title if it goes to DickxBabs in a relationship all the time. I have never seen it as being anywhere near the level of ClarkxLois, BrucexSeleana because it is a retconned relationship that has been ignored by the person who created it/gave it legitimate life in Bruce Timm, the Arkhamverse with her actually marrying Tim where they did not even go past the proposal for, in Young Justice Dick Grayson slept with any girl who was not in a relationship. Before this relationship ended after Infinite Crisis & One Year later Dick survived a editorial death largely due to his connection to the DCU and he had his best years as Batman before once again becoming stagnant constrained in the New 52 with just the the Batworld as his stomping ground with no connections to anything outside of the Gotham sphere. The World building Tim Seeley is doing with all the different locations, Raptor, taking down the Owls as fast as possible are what has kept my interest these past few issues and the meta hints of not going back to the Bludhaven and Barbara formula is not the proper path to have the character be more than it was and actually produce a Great Nightwing story that can rival NTT, Batman & Robin, Black Mirror. Grayson was good but never reached its full potential but its story elements can still move the character forward and doing the same old won't cut it.

[Badou]

What can he really move on to, though? These characters are never going to advance in their lives. He's most likely going to be still in his early 20s several decades from now. I can't see how their romance has run it's course any more than Clark/Lois, Bruce/Selina, or Peter/MJ (damn you, Quesada). The only thing pairing him up with Barbara eliminates is other shipping options, and that's no big loss. Otherwise, writing both characters well independently and having them act mature when they're together is totally doable. Seeley's even doing it right now. The New 52 just...didn't seem to want to do it, for some reason.

A new character. There are plenty of other female heroes out there for him to start a new relationship with. None will ever get a chance as long as Babs is constantly around him though. Also as for romances like Clark/Lois, Bruce/Selina, or Peter/MJ the big difference I see in them and Dick/Babs is that those relationships get a lot of support from outside of the main comic line. They are romances that DC/WB value and put a priority on and use in other media a lot, but I don't think they view Dick/Babs the same way. It has very little presence outside of the main comic line despite them being paired up for so long in the comics.

Also I don't like the way Dick is written with Babs nowadays. His character isn't very good when he is constantly chasing after Babs and pining for her, which tends to constantly happen. Because there will never be any payoff with their romance, and it will constantly be just teased, the romance serves as an anchor to this character that is slowing him down too. His character is at his best when he is free from those kind of weights and can be on his own, like what we saw in the Grayson series.

I mean I get why people like Dick and Babs together, and I used to be one of them and defended it, but I'm just tried of it at this point. Just put it in Babs' own book if writers are interested in it. It is just too damaged at this point in and outside of comics for me to want to read more of it, and it would take several really great stories with them to get me want to jump back on board.

[Vinsanity]

Unless they are getting serious. It's done its course. Like I felt Lois and Clark did.

At least he's global hopping.

[Godlike13]

I think Ricky and Sonia shows the problem with new characters (not that I didn't like Sonia). Dick and Babs are both two constant characters, and can easily be used as support, or as love interests, or what have you, for one another with out having to first establish them or introduce them to readers. Either one can easily just pop up with very little groundwork and serve a purpose.

[Badou]

I probably should have clarified. By "new" I mean a new option. Not a new character altogether. So basically a hero that already exists that Dick hasn't interacted with much. Vixen, Power Girl, and so on.

[DurararaFTW]

Dick and Babs have that level of freedom. They're in the same corner of the DCU, where crossovers and guest spots are perfectly natural. Same group of writers and editors. Keeping the relationship consistent would be doable provided the writers and editors actually do their jobs.

Just cause the writer of Batgirl doesn't feel Babs needs to be chained to Dick doesn't mean she isn't doing her job.

Bruce and Selina have had their fair share of tedious melodrama, but fans of the relationship can safely ignore it and just enjoy something by a different writer. Also helps that all of Bruce's other romantic relationships are all mostly duds and Talia, so Selina has pretty much zero competition.

Beyond the fact that Selina still gets new solos in which she is a criminal that hangs out with Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn and clashes with GCPD. Kinda makes her and Bruce going steady problematic.

And we've yet to see any actual whining between Dick and Babs as yet in this title. I have plenty of good will towards them. Dick got a present for her in #1 and got accused of pining over her, which seems a little OTT to me. So far I think we've seen more whining about the couple than we have from the actual characters.

Babs is complaining about her being stood up for a date they planned for a specific date and time even though they both knew they'd both be in other continents mere hours beforehand. How is that not whining? People that aren't superheros lead too hectic lives to make such an appointment reliably work.

But Tim Seeley introduced it because he feels Dick and Babs drama is a vital part of Nightwing that needs to reexplored and reempathesised, as opposed to most Batgirl writers who have been happy to leave it where it is.

I think Ricky and Sonia shows the problem with new characters (not that I didn't like Sonia). Dick and Babs are both two constant characters, and can easily be used as support, or as love interests, or what have you, for one another with out having to first establish them or introduce them to readers. Either one can easily just pop up with very little groundwork and serve a purpose.

I don't think the results of Higgins' attempt to have Dick date the daughter of the guy that murdered his parents should be considered indicative of the worth of any newly introduced character in a work of fiction.

[SiegePerilous02]

A new character. There are plenty of other female heroes out there for him to start a new relationship with. None will ever get a chance as long as Babs is constantly around him though. Also as for romances like Clark/Lois, Bruce/Selina, or Peter/MJ the big difference I see in them and Dick/Babs is that those relationships get a lot of support from outside of the main comic line. They are romances that DC/WB value and put a priority on and use in other media a lot, but I don't think they view Dick/Babs the same way. It has very little presence outside of the main comic line despite them being paired up for so long in the comics.

But why is setting him up with other female characters like Vixen or Power Girl even desirable? He won't be with Barbara anymore, but then it just creates some tedious will they/won't they crap with somebody else, spawns shipping wars, etc. From my perspective, seeing Dick hook up with other super heroines is pretty low on my list of interests when I pick up a Nightwing book. I wanna see him do exciting things and face cool supervillains, and carve out his own niche in the DC universe. Exploring other romantic options could be interesting, but it just doesn't strike me as all that important.

The romance doesn't have very little presence in outside media. B:TAS is the main reason it even became a thing in the canon comics. It was also present in YJ. It's roughly on the same level as Robin/Starfire, and otherwise way ahead of any other romances for either character in other media.

Also I don't like the way Dick is written with Babs nowadays. His character isn't very good when he is constantly chasing after Babs and pining for her, which tends to constantly happen. Because there will never be any payoff with their romance, and it will constantly be just teased, the romance serves as an anchor to this character that is slowing him down too. His character is at his best when he is free from those kind of weights and can be on his own, like what we saw in the Grayson series.

I didn't like the way they were written together in most of the New 52 either, but honestly I just pin the blame on the writers instead of the characters. They were fine in Grayson, and they're fine here so far. Whatever. Shipping scenes aren't a major draw for me, but they're not inherently detrimental either. Dick should be free of weights, shouldn't be based in Gotham (or a Diet Gotham like Bludhaven) and have his own unique elements to his property, but Babs (and other Gotham characters like Bruce, Damian, Alfred, etc.) are way too big a part of him to ever not be a presence in whatever book he's starring in. That said, so are the Titans, and more of those characters should pop up at some point.

Just cause the writer of Batgirl doesn't feel Babs needs to be chained to Dick doesn't mean she isn't doing her job.

Who says either one of them has to be chained to the other when they appear in each other's book? And to clarify, in this hypothetical scenario where the direction to put them together permanently is decided upon by the Bat-office, it shouldn't be this impossible task some make it out to be across two books. Neither one of them has to feature in every single issue of the other's book, and the writer doesn't have to put too much focus on it if they don't want to. Babs can still have Batgirl adventures without Dick being in the issue. All it does is eliminate other shipping options, and in light of the likes of Jason Bard, Luke Fox and Ricky Gutierrez, is that much of a big loss?

Beyond the fact that Selina still gets new solos in which she is a criminal that hangs out with Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn and clashes with GCPD. Kinda makes her and Bruce going steady problematic.

Exactly my point. Bruce and Selina have been doing the doomed romance thing since 1940, and it clearly isn't going anywhere. Why should Dick and Babs, which is almost as popular and with much less in-story factors preventing it, go away either?

Babs is complaining about her being stood up for a date they planned for a specific date and time even though they both knew they'd both be in other continents mere hours beforehand. How is that not whining? People that aren't superheros lead too hectic lives to make such an appointment reliably work.

They planned it for a specific date and time, and Dick said he was going to be there. Why wouldn't she think he'd make it, or at least contact her if he wasn't going to? Her concern here comes from thinking he got killed or hurt, and currently hanging out with this sketcky Raptor dude when she does track him down. There's no complaining, there is mostly legit concern.

[dropkickjake]

Pairing Dick with another hero raises the same problems as with Babs. Presumably, another author would be writing her as well, and the coordination would cause the same editorial headaches.

[The World]

Not really seeing the problem with Barb in this story. Even if the idea of them being together makes you grit your teeth there's nothing wrong with her characterization. She's a concerned friend over the wellbeing and life choices of someone close to her. Her role in the story has been fine; frankly I tend to not pay much attention to romance in DC/Marvel stuff because it all changes with how the wind blows but at least here they're written affectionate and caring, not seeing the issue.

[oasis1313]

I still hate the artwork.

[RedQueen]

Not really seeing the problem with Barb in this story. Even if the idea of them being together makes you grit your teeth there's nothing wrong with her characterization. She's a concerned friend over the wellbeing and life choices of someone close to her. Her role in the story has been fine; frankly I tend to not pay much attention to romance in DC/Marvel stuff because it all changes with how the wind blows but at least here they're written affectionate and caring, not seeing the issue.

Gotta admit, it is refreshing to see someone give a crap if Dick dies after a year of no one even saying his name or even mourning him.

[DurararaFTW]

But why is setting him up with other female characters like Vixen or Power Girl even desirable? He won't be with Barbara anymore, but then it just creates some tedious will they/won't they crap with somebody else, spawns shipping wars, etc. From my perspective, seeing Dick hook up with other super heroines is pretty low on my list of interests when I pick up a Nightwing book. I wanna see him do exciting things and face cool supervillains, and carve out his own niche in the DC universe. Exploring other romantic options could be interesting, but it just doesn't strike me as all that important.

Then why not argue for that instead of the Babs/Dick variety of tedious will they/won't they crap, (that invariably is answered with "won't"), which is what we are actually getting out of this.

I didn't like the way they were written together in most of the New 52 either, but honestly I just pin the blame on the writers instead of the characters. They were fine in Grayson, and they're fine here so far. Whatever. Shipping scenes aren't a major draw for me, but they're not inherently detrimental either. Dick should be free of weights, shouldn't be based in Gotham (or a Diet Gotham like Bludhaven) and have his own unique elements to his property, but Babs (and other Gotham characters like Bruce, Damian, Alfred, etc.) are way too big a part of him to ever not be a presence in whatever book he's starring in. That said, so are the Titans, and more of those characters should pop up at some point.

It's possible that every single writers and every single editor involved is too blame for why it sucks but given that firing everyone is not viable solution, just having some distance for Barbara seems a good, and easily achievable alternative.

Who says either one of them has to be chained to the other when they appear in each other's book? And to clarify, in this hypothetical scenario where the direction to put them together permanently is decided upon by the Bat-office, it shouldn't be this impossible task some make it out to be across two books. Neither one of them has to feature in every single issue of the other's book, and the writer doesn't have to put too much focus on it if they don't want to. Babs can still have Batgirl adventures without Dick being in the issue. All it does is eliminate other shipping options, and in light of the likes of Jason Bard, Luke Fox and Ricky Gutierrez, is that much of a big loss?

But that hypothetical scenerio is not what's happening. Bat-office is not putting them together. Batgirl is having her own adventures as is. But Seeley clearly does want Batgirl is every single issue of Nightwing, and with certain amount of focus on her.

Exactly my point. Bruce and Selina have been doing the doomed romance thing since 1940, and it clearly isn't going anywhere. Why should Dick and Babs, which is almost as popular and with much less in-story factors preventing it, go away either?

You can ALWAYS read a new Batman comic in which he isn't minding Catwoman at all. Even when Hush was going on and they were in a relationship, you could pick up several new comics those months with him in it and be none the wiser. It is not the same for Nightwing or Batgirl.

They planned it for a specific date and time, and Dick said he was going to be there. Why wouldn't she think he'd make it, or at least contact her if he wasn't going to? Her concern here comes from thinking he got killed or hurt, and currently hanging out with this sketcky Raptor dude when she does track him down. There's no complaining, there is mostly legit concern.

Except that Nightwing did tell her beforehand his mission involved deep cover. And death is not the only thing that can make someone's commute less then absolutely perfect, or put them out of cellphone range. Especially when you are a goddamn superhero.

[darkseidpwns]

I dont care about Babs now and would rather just she went away but relationships follow the same stages. There is no point in asking for another love interest because I dont see how that would be any different, unless you guys want Dick to be the casual sex guy but even that is just a detail, it will never have a story importance.

No love interests for a while imo.

[HellHere]

But that hypothetical scenerio is not what's happening. Bat-office is not putting them together. Batgirl is having her own adventures as is. But Seeley clearly does want Batgirl is every single issue of Nightwing, and with certain amount of focus on her.

We're 3 issues in. I don't think we can really say more than Seeley wants her in this arc for a specific purpose. It's not like we're 20 in and she's been in 18.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's possible that every single writers and every single editor involved is too blame for why it sucks but given that firing everyone is not viable solution, just having some distance for Barbara seems a good, and easily achievable alternative.

Except that Seeley and King have (IMO) written it fine. So we already have evidence that not every writer is responsible for making it suck. So far, we're not getting any Gail Simone, Cameron Stewart or Brenden Fletcher levels of badness. Giving them some distance would be easily achievable, but they also have no incentive to do it. It's a popular pairing. All we can do is hope it's written well and doesn't interfere with the stories too much when it's not needed.

But that hypothetical scenerio is not what's happening. Bat-office is not putting them together. Batgirl is having her own adventures as is. But Seeley clearly does want Batgirl is every single issue of Nightwing, and with certain amount of focus on her.

How do you know for certain about any of this? We're only three issues in, and the first arc isn't even finished yet. And since the very Gotham-centric Parliament of Owls are apparently going to be destroyed, I think we have a good indication that Seeley doesn't want to tie Dick down to Gotham related stuff too much. That probably also includes Babs (and Bruce, and Damian) to a degree.

You can ALWAYS read a new Batman comic in which he isn't minding Catwoman at all. Even when Hush was going on and they were in a relationship, you could pick up several new comics those months with him in it and be none the wiser. It is not the same for Nightwing or Batgirl.

You can read Dick without Babs in Titans. And Batgirl without him in her solo. And probably less of her as we continue with Nightwing. It's a little too early in the Rebirth era to determine if this pairing is smothering either character.

Except that Nightwing did tell her beforehand his mission involved deep cover. And death is not the only thing that can make someone's commute less then absolutely perfect, or put them out of cellphone range. Especially when you are a goddamn superhero.

Dick's exact line after Babs asks if he will be in the area is: "Not quite. But I could get there once I wrap up this mission." They are also, as you said, "goddamn superheroes," and have the resources to travel vast distances in short amounts of time. She again has no reason to think he won't show up without telling her otherwise, because he gives her a definitive yes, not a maybe. There's nothing unreasonable about her behavior, unlike her "Stop being concerned about me or I WILL PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE!!" nonsense we got from Simone.

I dont care about Babs now and would rather just she went away but relationships follow the same stages. There is no point in asking for another love interest because I dont see how that would be any different, unless you guys want Dick to be the casual sex guy but even that is just a detail, it will never have a story importance.

No love interests for a while imo.

Yeah, I'd be open to Babs and the whole Gotham crew taking a break from this title for a while, but exploring casual hook ups with other heroines does nothing for me either. It will just provide more shipping options, and make the shipping debates more unbearable than they already are. Just have Nightwing go on cool adventures, that's all I ask.

It's like some Spidey fans saying they wanted the marriage gone because it opens up doors to other stories...like casual hook ups with Black Cat or Carol Danvers. Um...yay?

We're 3 issues in. I don't think we can really say more than Seeley wants her in this arc for a specific purpose. It's not like we're 20 in and she's been in 18.

I know, right?