Did DC mess up Catwoman?

[millernumber1]

I'm going to take this to highlight my pet theory, if you want a solo Catwoman book to work, you have to have little to no Batman in it, just as there is little to know Catwoman in most of the Batman titles (for that matter, other media). To Batman, Catwoman needs to be mysterious. You can explore her, but it has to be so far out of his gaze that if/when they interact again the reader understands that they just aren't going to be able understand one another. (And something being that far from Batman's gaze should do is make the whole good/bad thing moot.)

Regardless of what your think of the various writers on the New 52 title, I think i was a mistake to spin off a new status quo for Catwoman from Batman Eternal. It tells readers that Batman writers can overwrite Catwoman ones, which make investing in the book seem less worth while. (It was also giant miscalculation of how to draw on the appeals of Loeb and Sale's When In Rome and the Brubaker run, but that's another post.)

Well, sales definitely seem to bear you out, but I thought Valentine's run on Catwoman, except for the rushed ending, was really, really dark and intricate, and a really worthwhile story with character development and moral exploration.

[TsukiSentinel]

Catwoman's problem is fairly simple, and it really has little to do with how she's characterized. Her New 52 run received terrible reviews at launch, and DC allowed it to languish for 34 issues with poor creative teams, before rolling the dice with a bold new direction in the Valentine run. But unlike with Batgirl, DC did not market it, and despite high critical acclaim, the run was largely ignored in most comic reading circles. Many hadn't even realized that a new creative team was brought on board, and still associated the series with the Winick and Nocenti failures. There was no relaunch, or even a trade renumbering like Batgirl and Superman received, even though it desperately needed some sort of reset. In the end, I don't think DC really sees Catwoman as one of their premier female characters (such as Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Harley, Black Canary, etc).

Catwoman not a premier female character??? As ridiculous as that sounds, the sad part is I believe you. DC are f*cking a**holes. She's literally the oldest female character they own next to Lois Lane.

[TsukiSentinel]

Well, sales definitely seem to bear you out, but I thought Valentine's run on Catwoman, except for the rushed ending, was really, really dark and intricate, and a really worthwhile story with character development and moral exploration.

She had no grasp of the character of Selina/Catwoman. She was writing some sort of OOC character who just happened to have the same name.

Yep, me too. I think this is the way to go with Selina. Make her fun, flirty, slightly femme fatale as required on a series of international heists. Like a good spy, Selina should present the image required to accomplish her task. But always looking out for number one (which doesn't preclude her from protecting those she loves).

She should be more like Carmen Sandiego.

I had the idea that she should be upgraded. She should be as smart as Batman. I also think she should become a philanthropist Robin-hood type. She should do immoral things for the right reasons. That way she remains an anti-hero, but she doesn't lose her "villain" qualities, because she's justified now, whereas before she was conflicted.

I also despise how DC has simultaneously desexualized(in terms of her personality) her, yet over-sexualized(in terms of her appearance) her at the same time. This goes against her femme fatale nature. This started with the erasure of her sex working backstory.

So to summarize:

- Mysterious like Carman Sandiego.
- Villain who steals for altruistic reasons.
- Highly Intelligent. Doesn't lose as easily.
- A true femme fatale who used to prostitute.

[Aahz]

She had no grasp of the character of Selina/Catwoman. She was writing some sort of OOC character who just happened to have the same name.

I have to agree. The best example is in my opinion the part where she had her cousin kill her brother to please the other mob bosses. That was imo really OOC and it would have been much more fitting for her to find an other way out of this situation.

A true femme fatale who used to prostitute.

I don't think that the prostitute thing is necessary, it was iirc removed or downplayed very quickly after Miller introduced it, and there were still very good catwman runs pre flash point, and she was already a good character before Miller introduced it.


What annoyed me was the lack of consistency with her origin in the New 52, they set some mystery up in the #0 issue and than completely ignored it and than came out of nowhere with the Calabrese stuff without really explaining it. I really hope that they fix that when she gets her next series.

[LostinFandom]

Well, sales definitely seem to bear you out, but I thought Valentine's run on Catwoman, except for the rushed ending, was really, really dark and intricate, and a really worthwhile story with character development and moral exploration.

I didn't like Valentine's run. I had concerns about the new status quo and the way she addressed them didn't work. For instance, Valentine didn't ever touch on Selina's relationship with her father directly, (possibly because she was writing with little knowledge of what was going on in Batman Eternal) and she substituted this with comparisons to historical figure. I think she did herself a disservice by not focusing enough on Selina's new family. She kills off a character she created for the series within three issue of her run. A couple of issues later she does this big dance with Batman and Cateoman at the docks about a page. The big deal is he's too late to stop somethings she already has in motion . But giving so much space to this means less attention is paid to the fact that her various double dealing has led to her cousin's arrest. This is both confusing to read, and is another example of Valentine sabotaging a chance for the readers to care about the new characters.

Individual issues sold well, but I think it was a case of loosing older readers for newer ones (I read several positive reviews that included something like "I never like Catwoman before but I like this," which When they ended it (I suspect trade sales were lower than anticipated.) Switching back thief Catwoman lost whatever new readers they got and didn't gain back lost ones. Sometimes that happens.

[ABH]

I had the idea that she should be upgraded. She should be as smart as Batman. I also think she should become a philanthropist Robin-hood type. She should do immoral things for the right reasons. That way she remains an anti-hero, but she doesn't lose her "villain" qualities, because she's justified now, whereas before she was conflicted.

I could get behind the idea of her stealing for mostly altruistic reasons, as long as she's stealing from badguys... and occasionally keeps something for herself. I certainly wouldn't want her to be completely "good", because we have enough characters that sit in that bucket.

Also, while many characters deserve books, not every book needs to be an ongoing. I could see Catwoman doing quite well with a couple minis a year -- focusing on big jobs/scores, and wrapping everything up by the end.

[TsukiSentinel]

I don't think that the prostitute thing is necessary, it was iirc removed or downplayed very quickly after Miller introduced it, and there were still very good catwman runs pre flash point, and she was already a good character before Miller introduced it.

I disagree. Ideally, aspects of Catwoman's sexuality should make some readers uncomfortable. IMO, pushing people's buttons and getting under their skin is intrinsic to who she is. Readers shouldn't be the exception to this.

And honestly, I'm tired of comicbook companies acting so childish when it comes to these types of characters. Grow the hell up DC and realize that if you want to make Gotham gritty and realistic(metahumans not withstanding), you're going to have to portray prostitution, preferably in a respectful and understanding manner. I honestly feel like I can't respect DC as a storytelling company if they don't portray at least one of their characters as a (former) sex worker.

I could get behind the idea of her stealing for mostly altruistic reasons, as long as she's stealing from badguys... and occasionally keeps something for herself. I certainly wouldn't want her to be completely "good", because we have enough characters that sit in that bucket.

You're welcome to your own ideas of course, but I think you're missing the point.

If she steals ONLY from bad guys, then she's no longer a villain. Not even in the slightest, meaning she has lost all her villain appeal, and can barely be said to be an anti-hero.

Also, I brought up altruism not to justify her actions on an objective level, but on a subjective personal level. Batman is a moral objectivist. This would clash with Catwoman's altruism, which would rely on moral relativism.

These are the same exact mistakes writers keep making with Catwoman. They water her down until she's perfectly acceptable as Batman's main love interest. Might as well make her a stepford superhero wife if that's your goal.

Catwoman needs to be edgy, and she needs to be both good and bad.

I notice a lot of female villains are getting watered down these days. Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy, for example.

[mathew101281]

I disagree. Ideally, aspects of Catwoman's sexuality should make some readers uncomfortable. IMO, pushing people's buttons and getting under their skin is intrinsic to who she is. Readers shouldn't be the exception to this.

And honestly, I'm tired of comicbook companies acting so childish when it comes to these types of characters. Grow the hell up DC and realize that if you want to make Gotham gritty and realistic(metahumans not withstanding), you're going to have to portray prostitution, preferably in a respectful and understanding manner. I honestly feel like I can't respect DC as a storytelling company if they don't portray at least one of their characters as a (former) sex worker.



You're welcome to your own ideas of course, but I think you're missing the point.

If she steals ONLY from bad guys, then she's no longer a villain. Not even in the slightest, meaning she has lost all her villain appeal, and can barely be said to be an anti-hero.

Also, I brought up altruism not to justify her actions on an objective level, but on a subjective personal level. Batman is a moral objectivist. This would clash with Catwoman's altruism, which would rely on moral relativism.

These are the same exact mistakes writers keep making with Catwoman. They water her down until she's perfectly acceptable as Batman's main love interest. Might as well make her a stepford superhero wife if that's your goal.

Catwoman needs to be edgy, and she needs to be both good and bad.

I notice a lot of female villains are getting watered down these days. Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy, for example.

I agree. It's especially gauling with Ivy, who in my opinion is pretty much on the same wave length as Ras al Ghoul, and no one is racing to make him some kind of hero. Her plans regularly involve schemes that would kill thousands if not millions of people including kids.

[HsssH]

I also ended up not liking Valentine's run and I don't think that advertising it more would have changed anything. I don't think that anyone thinks "crime boss" when Catwoman is mentioned and Valentine didn't really convince that we should think that way about Catwoman. It didn't help that it was rather slow and boring run with rather standard crime plot, but featuring Catwoman who doesn't really act like Catwoman.

[Darkspellmaster]

The Noir and Carmen Sandiago aspects would fit her great. Brubaker's run was fun and really interesting. Honestly you can play her off as being a thief for "good reasons" and maybe have her do specialized jobs working for the DA's office on the side as a means of showing different aspects of why her skills are so prized by people. Just stop with the whole flip flopping her. She's not like Joker or Two face, I would say she's more riddler in how she sees things. There's a chance to gain something for herself but also not always on the dark side of things. She'll do the right thing when she has reason to, but her way of doing that doesn't always correspond with how Batman or anyone else would be doing it, or should be doing it. In regards to the Bats, maybe have him in a few stories but only when needed. He needs to be a side character to her, someone that can work with her, or be her opposition. This would have to be her story and her cast, not his.

[Huntsman1117]

DC absolutely did ruin Catwoman. They had a great thing going with her in the 90's when her comic sales were very strong, often outselling Robin, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Birds of Prey. Brubaker's run, while well-written, did not sell very well in comparison and eventually dropped of the top 100 sales chart and was one of the worst selling DC titles. The New 52 Catwoman sales were a disaster.
So DC needs to overhaul Catwoman. Make her a consistent anti-hero, give her a more appealing look, and more intelligently-written, exciting stories that make her a triumph. Because everything that has been done in the 2000s & 2010s hasn't compared well to what was done in the 90's.

[Carabas]

Yeah, her sales were better in the 90's. So were everybody else's.

Meanwhile, the book itself was an unreadable hairball most of the time, sales or not.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I really don't think DC's "ruined" Catwoman. At least not in any way that can't be easily rectified. Just because she has no ongoing title now doesn't mean she won't have one soon enough.

[Huntsman1117]

She doesn't have a title right now because her comic was selling very poorly, especially compared to other DC characters. It was the worst selling DC title during the past few years. It didnt rank anywhere close to other DC titles.
Yes in the 90's, all comics had stronger sales. But Catwoman consistently OUTSOLD Wonder Woman and Aquaman, and often outsold Robin and Birds of Prey as well. She had a fairly high-ranking comic back then. But that all ended with the 2001 relaunch. What do suppose caused that?

[thelibrarian]

I think all the pc stuff ruined her. The last series the artwork and story were boring. It was like a noir style and she walked around in business suits. Honestly i came for leather clad spandex and fighting. Not gonna lie. guess i need to go straight up heavy metal and boundless comics. I understand they want to turn her into hillary clinton and be a good role model for young girls. I'll go get my sleaze elsewhere.