All New All Dream?

[jackolover]

There comes a time, when all the things you are faced with don't make as much sense as they normally do, and you have to take one step away from it to get a better idea.

Looking at the way Secret Wars ended, you can take a longer look at the sequences as they are presented chronologically, and you see that it states Franklin Richards is dreaming all these Universes, as the best that they can be. Not like the heroes presumed, that Reed and company were going to put it back the closest to what it was. That's not what happened. Let's just go back to opening scenes (mostly flashbacks in books already started), and you will quickly see the appearance of many components from Battleworld, incorporated into the 616, (when they shouldn't have been there, because Alternate Earths and realities were being manufactured anyway).

First came Mikes Morales and his mum and friends
2nd Yotat from Knowhere
3rd. Cho's sister.
4th Squadron Supreme, many realities
5th Thundra and Tyndal, Weirdworld
6th Old Man Logan, from Wastelands

What I think Franklin is dreaming on ANAD is a better 616. A real solution to super crime, like Kobik and Ulysses. Then there's OML's Wastelands/Villains Uprising still to come but to be thwarted, Ultimates Universe to be thwarted, New Universal's Vogt to be thwarted. All the Alternate Reality components will emerge but happen another way; a better way. But then there's more.

What if Doom did it a better way?
What if the Red Skull did it a better way?
What if Thanos did it a better way?

Then you have -

Ultimates doing it better?
Alpha Flight doing it better with CWII's Ulysses?
Squadron Supreme doing it better, killing Namor?

You can start to see things happening now that look like Alternate Realities seeding the 616 plot lines from here on in. We may see OML villains uprising, we've already seen an alternative CW, we could see the New Universal's apprehension of super heroes with Vogt, 1872's Roxxon Rising, anything Alternate Reality currently in the 616 right now, Franklin could dream up a scenario and make it happen in the 616.

[Cthulhudrew]

So you're saying Franklin Richards is Tommy Westphall?

[Michael Watkins]

deep. I think little pieces of reality are fighting back. and some other forces are taking advantage of the chaos. I wonder what it looks like from Reed's side of things.

[Michael Watkins]

There comes a time, when all the things you are faced with don't make as much sense as they normally do, and you have to take one step away from it to get a better idea.

Looking at the way Secret Wars ended, you can take a longer look at the sequences as they are presented chronologically, and you see that it states Franklin Richards is dreaming all these Universes, as the best that they can be. Not like the heroes presumed, that Reed and company were going to put it back the closest to what it was. That's not what happened. Let's just go back to opening scenes (mostly flashbacks in books already started), and you will quickly see the appearance of many components from Battleworld, incorporated into the 616, (when they shouldn't have been there, because Alternate Earths and realities were being manufactured anyway).

First came Mikes Morales and his mum and friends
2nd Yotat from Knowhere
3rd. Cho's sister.
4th Squadron Supreme, many realities
5th Thundra and Tyndal, Weirdworld
6th Old Man Logan, from Wastelands

What I think Franklin is dreaming on ANAD is a better 616. A real solution to super crime, like Kobik and Ulysses. Then there's OML's Wastelands/Villains Uprising still to come but to be thwarted, Ultimates Universe to be thwarted, New Universal's Vogt to be thwarted. All the Alternate Reality components will emerge but happen another way; a better way. But then there's more.

What if Doom did it a better way?
What if the Red Skull did it a better way?
What if Thanos did it a better way?

Then you have -

Ultimates doing it better?
Alpha Flight doing it better with CWII's Ulysses?
Squadron Supreme doing it better, killing Namor?

You can start to see things happening now that look like Alternate Realities seeding the 616 plot lines from here on in. We may see OML villains uprising, we've already seen an alternative CW, we could see the New Universal's apprehension of super heroes with Vogt, 1872's Roxxon Rising, anything Alternate Reality currently in the 616 right now, Franklin could dream up a scenario and make it happen in the 616.

time definitely seems broken. i wonder if this is somehow effecting the Terrigen Mists. and i wonder what will become of Black Bolt's son taking control of Kang.

[jackolover]

So you're saying Franklin Richards is Tommy Westphall?

I'm not familiar with that reference but on looking up the program, yes, to some extent the ANAD does look like somebody's imagination of what the 616 should have been like.

Or even "The Wizard of Oz" where they took aspects of the characters from Kansas and put them into the straw man, or the tin man, or the lion, or the Witch. But all the time Kansas was always there.

[jackolover]

deep. I think little pieces of reality are fighting back. and some other forces are taking advantage of the chaos. I wonder what it looks like from Reed's side of things.

Where do you think little pieces of reality are fighting back?

Yes, it's possible forces like Mr Gryphon were taking advantage of the chaos, until the ANAD Avengers reformed to thwart him, but a lot of that could be dramas Franklin engineered to happen to drive his universe.

Reed's perspective on the ANAD as Franklin is dreaming it? I think the Richards family were deliberately removed from the universe as though they were dead, and Johnny talks about them like they were dead. Reed himself, I think, would be quite approving of his sons version (of a universe that once was, and blew up into pieces) to be satisfactory, as Reed being an elder statesman that saw the original 616, Dooms version of Battleworld, and now Franklins? I think Reed would pick Franklins because he trusts his son, and because it's the better version. That may be wrong of Reed to think an idealised version of Earth 616 is ethical, because maybe Reed dislikes his role as a failure in how his world ended.

Myself, the ethical thing to have done was to just restart the 616 as it was before the Secret War started in New Avengers #1. Warts and all. Bad Tony Stark still in charge of Stark Industries as the going concern, and just one armor, not all the armors in one. The Fantastic Four still in the Baxter Building. And Spiderman, the hopeless optimist living on his aunts couch. For Marvel to do this, twisting the histories of its characters into a "boys own" idealised version of the best 616, is telling us something about Marvels direction in the future.

The leaks of Battleworld Domains into ANAD, I feel comes from Franklins whole time sitting on Galactus' hand in Doomstadt, studying all the domains himself, and getting ideas from all the dramas played out in them.

[jackolover]

time definitely seems broken. i wonder if this is somehow effecting the Terrigen Mists. and i wonder what will become of Black Bolt's son taking control of Kang.

They're interesting conjectures, and ones I never considered myself. The Terrigen Mists affected by Franklin is particularly interesting. We just saw an old woman at an Antique Store in Arizona become a reality warper that Crystal is going to take away and train, in Spider-Woman #10.

[MattPriceTime]

If this theory would ever turn out to be true, I propose they introduce the All-New All-Unexpected Avengers. For a new world that is trying to fix things it's a great reason to bring a bunch of characters you would not expect to be the heroes of an event and let them shine.

C'mon Franklin, make a bunch of third stringers you always knew could do better, be better.

[Digifiend]

Reed's perspective on the ANAD as Franklin is dreaming it? I think the Richards family were deliberately removed from the universe as though they were dead, and Johnny talks about them like they were dead.

The Power Pack don't think the Richards family are dead. They talk about it in Choosing Sides 4, saying that they don't believe they'll never see Alex Power and Franklin Richards again (that was the only good thing about the story, since they made Julie two years younger than she should be and completely ignored Runaways, Loners, and Avengers Academy).

[ZephyrSurf]

Johnny also doesn't talk about them like they're dead.

And of course the Marvel Universe is how Reed sees it. That's the entire point of the end of Secret Wars. But treating it as some eternal dream is utterly asinine. Franklin made it and he left it. He's done this before with other universes, there's no reason to think he's consistently mentally influencing it now.

Also there's nothing to suggest Ultimate universe or the OML timeline is happening. In fact we've already passed the point of contention for the latter and they've explicitly said the former aint coming back.

[Tiamatty]

facepalm.jpg

Still trying to read more into things than is actually there, huh? Whatever.

And anyway, Marvel has been Franklin Richards' dream for decades.

I could also make the argument that all fiction is a dream, which the dreamers share with the world.

But in terms of whether ANAD is actually intended to be Franklin dreaming? Nope. Nope nope nope. The Marvel Universe is the Marvel Universe is the Marvel Universe. What we're seeing is what it is. No more, no less. All the things you talk about? Just little bits that were left over when the Marvel Universe was rebuilt. Done because editorial thought it would be cool to have bits of Secret Wars carry over, to give the event a bit more lasting an impact.

[Michael Watkins]

Johnny also doesn't talk about them like they're dead.

And of course the Marvel Universe is how Reed sees it. That's the entire point of the end of Secret Wars. But treating it as some eternal dream is utterly asinine. Franklin made it and he left it. He's done this before with other universes, there's no reason to think he's consistently mentally influencing it now.

Also there's nothing to suggest Ultimate universe or the OML timeline is happening. In fact we've already passed the point of contention for the latter and they've explicitly said the former aint coming back.

Franklin might be giving his input. He's with Reed.

[Johnny Peril]

Where do you think little pieces of reality are fighting back?

Yes, it's possible forces like Mr Gryphon were taking advantage of the chaos, until the ANAD Avengers reformed to thwart him, but a lot of that could be dramas Franklin engineered to happen to drive his universe.

Reed's perspective on the ANAD as Franklin is dreaming it? I think the Richards family were deliberately removed from the universe as though they were dead, and Johnny talks about them like they were dead. Reed himself, I think, would be quite approving of his sons version (of a universe that once was, and blew up into pieces) to be satisfactory, as Reed being an elder statesman that saw the original 616, Dooms version of Battleworld, and now Franklins? I think Reed would pick Franklins because he trusts his son, and because it's the better version. That may be wrong of Reed to think an idealised version of Earth 616 is ethical, because maybe Reed dislikes his role as a failure in how his world ended.

Myself, the ethical thing to have done was to just restart the 616 as it was before the Secret War started in New Avengers #1. Warts and all. Bad Tony Stark still in charge of Stark Industries as the going concern, and just one armor, not all the armors in one. The Fantastic Four still in the Baxter Building. And Spiderman, the hopeless optimist living on his aunts couch. For Marvel to do this, twisting the histories of its characters into a "boys own" idealised version of the best 616, is telling us something about Marvels direction in the future.

The leaks of Battleworld Domains into ANAD, I feel comes from Franklins whole time sitting on Galactus' hand in Doomstadt, studying all the domains himself, and getting ideas from all the dramas played out in them.

I noticed in A Force #8 Elsa Bloodstone now has a Bloodstone in place of the hand she claims her father ripped off which seems to come from her Battleworld Marvel Zombies mini.

[jackolover]

The Power Pack don't think the Richards family are dead. They talk about it in Choosing Sides 4, saying that they don't believe they'll never see Alex Power and Franklin Richards again (that was the only good thing about the story, since they made Julie two years younger than she should be and completely ignored Runaways, Loners, and Avengers Academy).

I'm glad to hear it. I'm going to read that Choosing sides next.

PS . After reading this Julie remarks they should consider Alex and Franky gone, but she BELIEVES otherwise.

[jackolover]

Johnny also doesn't talk about them like they're dead.

And of course the Marvel Universe is how Reed sees it. That's the entire point of the end of Secret Wars. But treating it as some eternal dream is utterly asinine. Franklin made it and he left it. He's done this before with other universes, there's no reason to think he's consistently mentally influencing it now.

Also there's nothing to suggest Ultimate universe or the OML timeline is happening. In fact we've already passed the point of contention for the latter and they've explicitly said the former aint coming back.

Reed just places the Alternate Realities. It's Franklin who dreams them into existence.

As for the UU, there's no reason ALL the Alternate Universes couldn't have been returned, that I know of. Is there any reason some Universes were left out? I'd certainly like to know why then?

The OML timeline may not be happening, but there's no reason aspects of it can't be injected into the ANAD as this continuity progresses. Regent has, Squadron Supreme has, 1872 has, and I could go on. You put characters from Battleworld into the ANAD and they are going to play out their dramas one way or another, as we've seen.