Zack Snyder's Superman isn't 'Dark,' He's 'Relatable'

[Batmaniac]

I see people thrown upon Superman saving cats from trees because, I don't know, it's not "cool" enough or something. But to that I say, what's wrong with Superman saving a cat from a tree? Here's a guy with these extraordinary powers, and what does he do? He puts on a pair of long johns, and flies around helping anybody he can in any way he can, no matter how big or small. That's Superman!

See, we're not meant to relate to Superman. We're meant to aspire to be Superman. To help our fellow man when the need arises. To do the right thing at all costs. Superman's a shining example; a beacon of hope, truth and justice mankind will always strive towards. But we are meant to relate to Clark Kent, and I'll be damned if anybody here can say they can't.

... unless we're speaking about this version Clark Kent, because he's barely a character. They've spent all this time developing Superman into this sociopath with a god complex, and none on developing Clark into an actual person. See, they haven't made him relatable. On the contrary, they've done the exact opposite. They've made him alien - and what's frightening is, they don't even realize it.

[Vanguard-01]

I see people thrown upon Superman saving cats from trees because, I don't know, it's not "cool" enough or something. But to that I say, what's wrong with Superman saving a cat from a tree? Here's a guy with these extraordinary powers, and what does he do? He puts on a pair of long johns, and flies around helping anybody he can in any way he can, no matter how big or small. That's Superman!

I haven't heard too many people outright hating on the idea of him saving cats from trees. It's a nice, iconic moment that shows how no job is too small for Superman, and even if you don't like it, it's not like there's ever been an entire story dedicated to him saving a cat from a tree. It's a short little "Awww!" moment before he zips off to go deal with something bigger.

See, we're not meant to relate to Superman. We're meant to aspire to be Superman. To help our fellow man when the need arises. To do the right thing at all costs. Superman's a shining example; a beacon of hope, truth and justice mankind will always strive towards. But we are meant to relate to Clark Kent, and I'll be damned if anybody here can say they can't.

And it's much easier to want to be Superman if you can see that he's not this perfect, infallible being who never struggles and never has fears or doubts. If you can see the journey he went on in order to become the iconic being that he is, then it suddenly seems more attainable and meaningful than to just say "Yeah, he was pretty much born that way."

... unless we're speaking about this version Clark Kent, because he's barely a character. They've spent all this time developing Superman into this sociopath with a god complex, and none on developing Clark into an actual person. See, they haven't made him relatable. On the contrary, they've done the exact opposite. They've made him alien - and what's frightening is, they don't even realize it.

Superman is not even close to a sociopath, and the mere fact that he was weirded out by people practically worshipping him makes your statement that he has a god complex erroneous, to say the least.

Clark Kent got more development in BvS. Especially in the Extended Cut, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

They made Superman into a human-ish being with flaws and foibles who doesn't always know what to do. That's not alien. That's not frightening to anyone. People were frightened of him because he had nearly limitless power and demonstrated (indirectly) just how bad it would be if he ever turned that power against them. Then he died to protect them yet again, and they were able to see him for the hero that he really was. When he returns next year, the world will celebrate his return, and the fear will be gone.

[misslane]

I see people thrown upon Superman saving cats from trees because, I don't know, it's not "cool" enough or something. But to that I say, what's wrong with Superman saving a cat from a tree? Here's a guy with these extraordinary powers, and what does he do? He puts on a pair of long johns, and flies around helping anybody he can in any way he can, no matter how big or small. That's Superman!

I agree with Vanguard-01. I also wanted to add that BvS made it canon that its Superman has saved cats from trees. Remember this line from Bruce to Clark? "The Daily Planet criticizing those who think they're above the laws. A little hypocritical, wouldn't you say? Considering every time your hero saves a cat out of a tree, you write a puff piece editorial, about an alien who if he wanted to, could burn the whole place down." It wasn't a cat, but soon after this exchange Superman hears about a girl trapped in a factory fire in Juarez and he rushes to her safety, even though it means giving up his investigation of Bruce/Batman for the time being.

[JAK]

I agree with Vanguard-01. I also wanted to add that BvS made it canon that its Superman has saved cats from trees. Remember this line from Bruce to Clark? "The Daily Planet criticizing those who think they're above the laws. A little hypocritical, wouldn't you say? Considering every time your hero saves a cat out of a tree, you write a puff piece editorial, about an alien who if he wanted to, could burn the whole place down."

That's a great way to look at it, though the line is used in the movie as a knock, just as Batmaniac said, because the audience will understand the significance. Doesn't negate what you're saying, though, so both points still stand.

It wasn't a cat, but soon after this exchange Superman hears about a girl trapped in a factory fire in Juarez and he rushes to her safety, even though it means giving up his investigation of Bruce/Batman for the time being.

That was neat - though it's a shame they do it as another slo-mo piece. Doing a full scene with that save would have really gone a long way, imo.

[misslane]

That's a great way to look at it, though the line is used in the movie as a knock, just as Batmaniac said, because the audience will understand the significance. Doesn't negate what you're saying, though, so both points still stand.

Yep, either way Batman is saying that Superman does engage in smaller acts of heroism (so the cat thing could be taken literally or more as a generalization) and that the public, of which the press represents one aspect, exalts or at least praises him for such seemingly minor and more humble heroics. The only knock from Bruce is that he thinks the press and public are too admiring of Superman when they should be considering the more threatening implications of his power.

That was neat - though it's a shame they do it as another slo-mo piece. Doing a full scene with that save would have really gone a long way, imo.

The slo-mo didn't affect my appreciation of it, so it worked for me.

[The World]

I see people thrown upon Superman saving cats from trees because, I don't know, it's not "cool" enough or something. But to that I say, what's wrong with Superman saving a cat from a tree? Here's a guy with these extraordinary powers, and what does he do? He puts on a pair of long johns, and flies around helping anybody he can in any way he can, no matter how big or small. That's Superman!

See, we're not meant to relate to Superman. We're meant to aspire to be Superman. To help our fellow man when the need arises. To do the right thing at all costs. Superman's a shining example; a beacon of hope, truth and justice mankind will always strive towards. But we are meant to relate to Clark Kent, and I'll be damned if anybody here can say they can't.

... unless we're speaking about this version Clark Kent, because he's barely a character. They've spent all this time developing Superman into this sociopath with a god complex, and none on developing Clark into an actual person. See, they haven't made him relatable. On the contrary, they've done the exact opposite. They've made him alien - and what's frightening is, they don't even realize it.

Pretty much everyone involved with this movie has said that the guy hasn't yet become Superman yet, so you're inference of the movies are off. Rather the problem with them is that there is simply too much Clark Kent and not enough Superman.

[Kid A]

Snyder's vision is kind of bizzare to me. The fact that he wants to adapt the Fountainhead (lol) means that the Randian stuff in Watchmen and BvS isn't satire, but for real? Affleck's Batman makes Judge Dredd look like an anarchist - but it didn't appear glorified to me if I hadn't known about Snyder's feelings about Rand - he does come off as an angry psycho up until he finally decides Superman is good. And in Watchmen, Rorshach is unambiguously a lunatic.

I'm curious though, what exactly do people not like about this Superman? I'm not really in an argumentative mode here, since my ideal Superman is probably the one in Morrison's Action run, but I didn't find a whole lot to object to here personally. I mean yeah he's kind of mopey, but I dunno, the world treats him rather terribly, and I really feel for him. In BvS in particular, I thought he made a good foil for this super-authoritarian Batman.

I like Snyder a lot actually, though I am not going to play dumb on why his movies are not critically well received. He has a really unique visual style, more montage than conventionally structured narrative. The Batman vs Superman fight scene was rad. I think George Miller is sort of what you would get if you corrected his flaws.

[Cowtools]

I agree with Vanguard-01. I also wanted to add that BvS made it canon that its Superman has saved cats from trees. Remember this line from Bruce to Clark? "The Daily Planet criticizing those who think they're above the laws. A little hypocritical, wouldn't you say? Considering every time your hero saves a cat out of a tree, you write a puff piece editorial, about an alien who if he wanted to, could burn the whole place down." It wasn't a cat, but soon after this exchange Superman hears about a girl trapped in a factory fire in Juarez and he rushes to her safety, even though it means giving up his investigation of Bruce/Batman for the time being.

I hate this mentality. A throwaway line, meant as an insult let's not forget, is not the equivalent of actually showing something on screen and seeing people react to it and helping the audience to feel it. Snyderman may have saved cats from trees, but the character up there on screen does not feel like the kind of person who'd do that, no matter what they say.

[Cowtools]

I'm curious though, what exactly do people not like about this Superman? ... I mean yeah he's kind of mopey, but I dunno, the world treats him rather terribly, and I really feel for him.

In a nutshell, for me, it's because in these movies he deserves all the hate that people throw at him, and he doesn't do much on screen to counteract it. All his 'heroic' qualities have to be inferred and what we are shown on screen is not a particularly positive or interesting character.

[Vanguard-01]

I hate this mentality. A throwaway line, meant as an insult let's not forget, is not the equivalent of actually showing something on screen and seeing people react to it and helping the audience to feel it. Snyderman may have saved cats from trees, but the character up there on screen does not feel like the kind of person who'd do that, no matter what they say.

How does he not feel like the kind of character who'd save cats from trees?

Even before he put on a costume, he was saving people from burning oil rigs, saving restaurant waitresses from sexual harassment, and saving women from killer robot attacks with rudimentary surgery. Once he put on a costume, he was willing to turn himself over to Zod rather than risk humanity getting hurt. He put his life on the line to save people he didn't even know. In BvS, he continued rescuing people from danger without thought of recognition or reward.

What about him makes you think he wouldn't save a cat? He pretty much never turned his back on people in need.

In a nutshell, for me, it's because in these movies he deserves all the hate that people throw at him, and he doesn't do much on screen to counteract it. All his 'heroic' qualities have to be inferred and what we are shown on screen is not a particularly positive or interesting character.

Saving a crew of cosmonauts? Saving a girl from a burning building? Saving people from a flash flood? Putting himself at risk to stop Zod? Trying to take Doomsday into space and away from civilians? Allowing himself to be nuked in order to try to stop Doomsday? Laying down his freaking life to stop Doomsday once and for all?

These aren't heroic qualities? These were merely inferred? These are the actions of a guy who deserves to be reviled by the entire world?

[Lex Luthor]

I dont think superman was dark he was just put into a darker world. His character still inspired hope and goodness in people and i think making him more relatable is the best thing snyder could have done. I think the obsession with people reacting to superman really is coming from fans being more into superman the figure than they are in superman as a living breathing character.

[manofsteel1979]

How does he not feel like the kind of character who'd save cats from trees?

Even before he put on a costume, he was saving people from burning oil rigs, saving restaurant waitresses from sexual harassment, and saving women from killer robot attacks with rudimentary surgery. Once he put on a costume, he was willing to turn himself over to Zod rather than risk humanity getting hurt. He put his life on the line to save people he didn't even know. In BvS, he continued rescuing people from danger without thought of recognition or reward.

What about him makes you think he wouldn't save a cat? He pretty much never turned his back on people in need.



Saving a crew of cosmonauts? Saving a girl from a burning building? Saving people from a flash flood? Putting himself at risk to stop Zod? Trying to take Doomsday into space and away from civilians? Allowing himself to be nuked in order to try to stop Doomsday? Laying down his freaking life to stop Doomsday once and for all?

These aren't heroic qualities? These were merely inferred? These are the actions of a guy who deserves to be reviled by the entire world?

B...but he d.. didn't smile and speechify or make any humorous quips about the safety of flight! Thus, he's a murdering sociopathic mopey monster!! Time to reboot the entire DCEU and give it back to Richard Donner to make SUPERMAN V: Return of the Trunks!

[manofsteel1979]

I dont think superman was dark he was just put into a darker world. His character still inspired hope and goodness in people and i think making him more relatable is the best thing snyder could have done. I think the obsession with people reacting to superman really is coming from fans being more into superman the figure than they are in superman as a living breathing character.

This.

Truth be known,Snyder Superman is not all that different himself from Donner Superman or comic book Superman. He just didn't burst fully formed from the Fortress of Solitude into a cartoon simplification of our world. This is a Superman who has to learn his way through a world more like ours.

[The Darknight Detective]

This.

Truth be known,Snyder Superman is not all that different himself from Donner Superman or comic book Superman. He just didn't burst fully formed from the Fortress of Solitude into a cartoon simplification of our world. This is a Superman who has to learn his way through a world more like ours.

The other truth is that the Donner/Reeve Superman was actually a more cartoony version of the comic-book Superman that I read at the time (don't even get me started about the Hackman Luthor, who bears the least resemblance, beyond the physical, to his comics characterization than any of the rest).

[JAK]

I'm curious though, what exactly do people not like about this Superman?

I guess I'll chime in, here. lol How much time ya got?

All joking aside, if BvS were about two other characters, I probably wouldn't feel as strongly as I do. I'd be rooting for the Batman character's story arc most likely, but I wouldn't be rallying for change. I just, frankly, wouldn't care much. I'd watch the movie and go "that was interesting".

But for Superman, I want to cheer the character. At the end of the movie, I want to feel like running down the halls with my arms out (in my mind anyway, lol). Now, I know some will say "you just want Reeve" or "you don't want a real hero" or some other such thing, because of prior experience they may have had with others who dislike these movies. That's not it at all. I wanted the take that the original MoS trailers led me to believe I was getting. A more serious take, in a more serious world, but Superman would be the bright spot in it. And he kinda was and he kinda wasn't. Bright..er.. but not necessarily bright. Which leaves me feeling "meh" about it. WB has done a good job making me feel "meh" about Superman since Superman Returns. Up until then, I didn't think it was possible. lol

I didn't feel that the character was as consistent as I'd like. As much as I felt Zod's death was a mistake, I'm actually more mad about his characterization in Pa's. I know what they were going for - when I think about it, it looks great on paper. A number of points in the movies are like this for me - which is why, when it's described, it's not as hard to defend as some might think. But the execution doesn't work for me. To me, given Clark's characterization, there is no way he's not going to try to save Pa. He might try and fail - one scenario I had in my head had Clark run up to the truck (not super-speed so as not to give anything away to the crowd) but the tornado is too fast, so they get in the truck before the tornado picks it up and Clark tries to use his body to shield Pa by them laying on the seat... only for a tree to come up from the bottom and kill him. Also, as I've said before, I wanted more things showing him learning. You can list examples of when he does something differently, but I'm talking about taking a movie beat showing him react to "x" and then when it happens again you get a sense of him knowing what to do now by "calling back" to "x". That kind of thing. Doing that would have really paid off the idea of him being so inexperienced, and I just didn't see it given any concrete plot beats.

More-so than characterization, it's been the presentation. During the Metropolis battle and Zod fight, after what felt like the 20th building fell over in full gratuitous fashion, it stopped having any effect. It was overkill. Sure, it's what would happen in "real life" and the devastation is important.. but seeing 50 shots of individual buildings falling (I'm exaggerating with both numbers, I know) made it less impactful and more just numbing. I literally thought "again? Really?" at one point, and we saw it in 3D Imax. Then, after Zod dies and Clark cries in Lois' arms..... we cut to a fun, jokey scene because "well, the movie's over, time to get happy!" I made the joke once that doing that was such cinematic whiplash it snapped my neck, lol. I thought "give the damn audience a breath after so much heavy. Let him hear people in the rubble after his moment... wipe his eyes, with a look on his face of "I'm not done. These people need me." and him helping people, reaching his hand down and pulling them out. Think of it like the original "Ghostbusters" movie. They didn't go from blowing up Gozer and Zul to them partying in the street. They had that moment where they broke Louis and Dana out of the calcified monsters, took a breath to soak in the finish.

BvS was better. The first half of the Batman/Superman fight was actually excellent, even if I'd rather Superman had kept talking during much of it. Some of Superman's more depressed moments could have worked better for me with a less defeatist (as I saw it) tone. What I've seen of the ultimate cut (waiting for the library to have it in because Snyder got my money twice and that's once too many imo, lol) looks more nuanced, which is good. Part of what doesn't work is on the editor, really. I think that, even with what's there, a more cohesive and clear edit could be done. Put the Justice League video files at the end when Batman is talking about "assembling others," that kind of thing.

There's a lot there that I see so much potential with in the DCEU. Lois being almost more of a friend and confidante than lover (at first), Clark finding his place in the world, and some of the takes were very fresh and I love the idea of them. But, for me, the execution of it so far just hasn't been enjoyable.