Zack Snyder's Superman isn't 'Dark,' He's 'Relatable'

[cfoshin]

The comic panels earlier in this thread look nice. But 52 Superman was featured in dozens of issues over the last 5 or so years. I'd say first and foremost New 52 Superman's story was about him being an alien, more isolated and wrestling with the idea that he ( unlike Post-Crisis Superman) was not universally trusted by the people of the world and Metropolis. Even Post-Crisis Superman lamented about how the new 52 world did not necessarily trust his counterpart. 52's parents were both taken away from him while he was in highschool- this only furthered his connection to humanity. This was very much a part of Man of Steel, the questioning of his role on earth and how to relate to it. While there were a number of moments of humanity in the film, like him asking for counsel from a man of god or reuniting with his mom, the story expertly brought this schism of Krypton and his humanity at the forefront, like no other Superman film every did ( he always seemed so well adjusted and personable) to the point where he literally made a choice. Yet Superman's compassion and heroism was also a part of Man of Steel, being compelled to help people, even though it would mean that he would have to disappear again. I like how when threatened with him disappearing Lois simply stated that the only way he could truly disappear would be if he stopped helping people ( which really wasn't an option).

So maybe someone can pull up a panel from Geoff Johns work on the character, where his isolation is touched upon, where Perry White calls him out of the fact that he was intentionally not really connected to the people he saw at work every day. Or maybe a panel where he saves Lois from Braniac's influence by allowing Parasite to suck the psionic weirdness out of her (potentially risking her life), or the part where he was able to be whipped into a frenzy by Apokaplyse's forces to the point where he would try to beat the bejesus out of Batman, GL and Flash upon their first meeting.

[cfoshin]

Geez. Thank you for posting this. Actual facts.

[cfoshin]

How can you say that? How? Why are you so desperate to cling to lies?

Geez. Thank you for posting this. Actual FACTS.

[jgprime]

Zack Snyder may be an Ayn Rand worshiper but his rendition of Superman is certainly a lot more hit than miss. Clark's actions and values throughout MoS and BvS, as empowering of Clark's individual will as they could be, are mostly pretty selfless and nuanced. Yes he stumbles and trips as he reaches that vision of silver age Superman that many people (who are out of touch with the character) want him to be. His errors, doubts, and progress are much more interesting to me than the seeming idealism and perfection of the very American-exceptionalist silver age Superman. These characteristics of Cavill's Clark ground the character and ultimately give us a depiction that thankfully receives a lot of debate.

[Kenletwo]

My problem with MOS and BvsS is the whole Hamlet impersonation. Maybe you should have let the bus load of kids drown; maybe you should be Earths' hero ... or not.

Plus, the whole "realistic" superbattle damage and casualties. If I wanted drawn out emotional angst and pathos, I'd be watching 70's European art films. Gritty, bloody, subdued-color violence is depressing. That's not a terrible thing in an urban drama or a war movie, but the dissonance between that and a world with the wonder-factor of super powers kind of sets my teeth on edge.

[Tayswift]

This is all just more compelling evidence that Edgar Wright should write and direct the next Superman movie. Why not, right?

nah, it will be Brad bird

[misslane]

My problem with MOS and BvsS is the whole Hamlet impersonation. Maybe you should have let the bus load of kids drown; maybe you should be Earths' hero ... or not.

Hamlet is about a tragic hero who struggles to act. What you are describing are the attitudes and values of Jonathan and Martha Kent who were only letting their son know that being an alien hero with superpowers is not all fun and games. It's a risk, and it's a risk that he has to take willingly and with full knowledge of what he'll be up against. If you recall, Clark, unlike Hamlet, continually chooses to save people. The Kents are Hamlet in your analogy because Clark always follows his heart and his conscience, and that means helping people.

[dumbduck]

The comic panels earlier in this thread look nice. But 52 Superman was featured in dozens of issues over the last 5 or so years. I'd say first and foremost New 52 Superman's story was about him being an alien, more isolated and wrestling with the idea that he ( unlike Post-Crisis Superman) was not universally trusted by the people of the world and Metropolis. Even Post-Crisis Superman lamented about how the new 52 world did not necessarily trust his counterpart. 52's parents were both taken away from him while he was in highschool- this only furthered his connection to humanity. This was very much a part of Man of Steel, the questioning of his role on earth and how to relate to it. While there were a number of moments of humanity in the film, like him asking for counsel from a man of god or reuniting with his mom, the story expertly brought this schism of Krypton and his humanity at the forefront, like no other Superman film every did ( he always seemed so well adjusted and personable) to the point where he literally made a choice. Yet Superman's compassion and heroism was also a part of Man of Steel, being compelled to help people, even though it would mean that he would have to disappear again. I like how when threatened with him disappearing Lois simply stated that the only way he could truly disappear would be if he stopped helping people ( which really wasn't an option).

So maybe someone can pull up a panel from Geoff Johns work on the character, where his isolation is touched upon, where Perry White calls him out of the fact that he was intentionally not really connected to the people he saw at work every day. Or maybe a panel where he saves Lois from Braniac's influence by allowing Parasite to suck the psionic weirdness out of her (potentially risking her life), or the part where he was able to be whipped into a frenzy by Apokaplyse's forces to the point where he would try to beat the bejesus out of Batman, GL and Flash upon their first meeting.

Geoff Johns. Who came aboard the exactly to leave his take on the character.

Scott Lobdell. This story was universally paned by everyone at the time. A point out of the curve.

Justice League. You were too easy on JL Supes. Thanks for that. You are comparing a team up book where Batman fans complain that he's not Batgod enough to Superman's origin story.


Superman had alienation issues but not to the point of saying that none stays good in this world. It's because these 2 are fundamentally different charactes. It's impossible to compare them. From the very begining. Because -

Here's one of his fathers.

edit: Since there are people who actually compare them, let me call attention to the dialogue:

-Are you helping people?
-As much as I can.
-Then that's all I need to know.

Sholly Fisch did do good stuff.

And here are his 2 mothers.


http://nerdist.com/comic-review-secret-origins-1/


http://comicvine.gamespot.com/articl...1/1100-148568/

[dumbduck]

cfoshin, sorry it took this long. I had some trouble finding MARTHA 1, MARTHA 2 and MARTHA 3.

What an admirable woman, Martha.



MARTHA 1



MARTHA 2



MARTHA 3

[Doctor Know]

For years, people have hated on Superman for not being relateable.

Now, the Snyders do a less than perfect attempt at making him so, and the tune changes. "He was never supposed to be relateable, he's meant to be better than us, and light in tone, etc." Nobody, fanbase or professional creators, know what the hell they want out of this character, and it's no surprise that everything about him and his property is so divisive right now.

For my part, I had no trouble empathizing with Clark in this, even in the butchered theatrical cut where most of his scenes got cut. I also generally take offense to people calling him a whiner or depressive mope just for being more introverted than a lot of other portrayals. I'm an introvert, but just because I don't smile like an idiot or make a big speech every 5 minutes, it doesn't mean I'm depressed. The way people go on about him, you'd think DCEU Clark was basically Kirsten Dunst in Melancholia: just lying in bed all day, refusing to bathe and telling Lois that her plans are pieces of shit.

This.

Honestly I think as a whole,the fan base doesn't really know what it wants. It's kind of like herding cats.

Put me down in agreement also.

Supes in MOS and BvS does nothing but help people, and yet people come away talking about how awesome Batman is. Is Batman in the DCEU relatable? Compared to Batman, Superman has a daily job (at the Planet), a functioning relationship with his live in girlfriend, shops and does the cooking, and reaches out to his parents and others when he has doubts. What's unrelatable about that?

[Last Son of Krypton]

sorry it took this long. I had some trouble finding MARTHA 1, MARTHA 2 and MARTHA 3.

What an admirable woman, Martha.

MARTHA 1

MARTHA 2

MARTHA 3

[dumbduck]

http://memesallovertheplace.tumblr.c...t/141887525533


https://ifunny.co/tags/martha/1460248825

[Last Son of Krypton]

http://memesallovertheplace.tumblr.c...t/141887525533


https://ifunny.co/tags/martha/1460248825

At least BvS gave to mankind the Martha memes. We're not worthy of this movie.

[rpi]

Who wants a relatable Superman or Batman? These are superheroes. They need to be BETTER, not "relatable". Such BS.

[rpi]

What moral choice did Superman make with which you disagreed? Was it morally wrong to kill Zod to protect an innocent family?



Um, you're not seriously suggesting Superman wanted to and purposefully chose to take battle Zod and his Kryptonian soldiers to more dangerous and populated areas? You expect me to trust your assessment of Superman's characterization when you watched Man of Steel and genuinely believed that Superman wanted to endanger as many lives as possible and destroy as much property as possible. It never occurred to you that he was inexperienced and scared, which made it difficult for him to manage the situation better? He had literally never been in a fight involving superpowers before. He had never battled anyone of his equivalent ability, yet the expectation is that he execute a strategic battle plan? Ridiculous!

To answer both of your questions: he didn't want either of those situations, but neither did he CARE that he was on either of those situations. If he had wanted those situations, he would be a villain, as Batman was in BvS. Instead, he was just a sociopath. Superman would have made every effort to take the fights away from those locations.