What would happen if we got the Movie Superman the critics of the Snyder verse say they want...

[manofsteel1979]

...and it also falls below box office gross expectations like the current DCEU Superman and Superman Returns?

What I mean is what if , after JL and the series gets rebooted and we got brightly colored costume,trunks and tights and all,completely competent and fully formed idol who doesn't get sad,doesn't make mistakes,almost always smiling and making quips,with paragon of virtue adoptive parents...you name it. Classic as it gets without going full Donner...we get all of that with a decent story...and it also didn't meet the all vaunted box office expectations.

Where would you go from there? Would that mean that it's more about the Superman brand than a specific version? Would we still get the hand wringing and belly aching over the movies not beating Marvel? Do you think Warner's would then overcompensate and go full grim dark...or just give up on big screen Superman?

[vasir12]

This is a very specific scenario you made here. Are you saying what if such a movie didn't make a billion but still made a profit?

[KingDragonlord]

We don't want a completely infallible Pollyanna. We want a fun character, like what comics used to be. We want a Superman movie made by people who aren't embarrassed by the source material.

I'm not criticizing you for your assessment of what we say we want. You're right that people have named all of those things, I've named some of them.

Sometimes its hard for people to articulate exactly what we want, we look at superficial traits.

What I really want is the Spiderman 2 of Superman movies (Toby Maguire Spiderman).

I know what you're thinking already "Aw Cmon! Peter Parker did a bunch of crying and moping in that movie." The crying is not what I'm talking about. Crying and moping works for Spiderman. What I want is a Superman movie that brings the classic comic book material for Superman to life the way Spiderman 2 did for Peter.

They weren't ashamed of hardly any of the goofy campy elements of the characters. They weren't afraid to have a dorky protagonist in bright colorful tights (compare Garfield's turn as a cool "Hollywood nerd" in a muted costume) they weren't afraid to take on the goofy villains. They weren't afraid of the broad drama that really stood in contrast to what had been acceptable in 90's movies, (especially action movies).

The people making Superman movies now are embarrassed or scared of Superman. I want a movie by people who are not. Superman is not grim. He likes being Superman. This doesn't mean he's happy all the time. There's a difference between liking being Superman and having a perky bubbly personality. MoS Superman feels emotionally crushed by the burden.

Based on what I've seen, if MoSuperman lost his powers, he'd be thrilled. He'd get to go be a normal dude and he'd never give being a hero again a second thought. He's only doing this because he's the only one who can. The Superman of the comics when he loses his powers (at least pre52, I haven't ready the new52 power loss arc) part of him does like being able to just be normal like normal people but he also feels himself pulled back into helping. He typically realizes that there's a part of him that won't let him give up the gig and that he has to get his powers back.

As for confidence. Sure Superman is sometimes stupid in the comics but that court scene is unforgivable. He seems sad but resigned to the explosion still standing at his podium not having lifted a finger. The Superman of the comics would have caught the bomb, but failing that we would have seen the smoke clearing to reveal Superman crouched over where the bomb was in the wreckage distraught at his failure. At least act like you're trying Supes.

[AcesX1X]

didn't bryan singer try back in 2006?

superman returns total gross was <400mil.

[KingDragonlord]

didn't bryan singer try back in 2006?

superman returns total gross was <400mil.

He tried too specifically to copy the Donner style, and worse gave us a confused mish mash of continuity and Superman being a dead beat dad.

Frankly, his copy was superficial, and the plot elements, like Lois being married, Superman being an illegitimate father and having abandoned Earth for years, interesting idea but it just didn't work.

Spiderman 2 was a full translation, right pallette, right action, and right sort of story with spot on characterization and themes. It was a very Spiderman story.

Superman Returns got the pallette right and did a decent job on special effects but it didn't tell a Superman story and the character, while superficially a copy of the Reid Superman, was a bit off (for starters, kind of creepy and too quiet).

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Then I'd assume it was a crap or otherwise shallow movie (going a full one-eighty in terms of his emotional range probably wouldn't help). And yeah, that's probably tank the franchise but good for a decade or two.

[Buried Alien]

As for confidence. Sure Superman is sometimes stupid in the comics but that court scene is unforgivable. He seems sad but resigned to the explosion still standing at his podium not having lifted a finger. The Superman of the comics would have caught the bomb, but failing that we would have seen the smoke clearing to reveal Superman crouched over where the bomb was in the wreckage distraught at his failure.

Not sure if you've had a chance to catch the Ultimate Edition of BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE, but the Ultimate Edition provides a specific reason that Superman did not detect the bomb.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[KingDragonlord]

I haven't. I don't really want to give it more money.

But I don't need Superman to detect the bomb. Quiet mechanism masked by the noise of the courtroom, sure. But I'd still have liked to have seen him not just standing there after the explosion.

Besides this gets back to the point of there being plot logical reasons for things happening, I don't care. This isn't whats supposed to happen in Superman stories. He doesn't need to succeed, but I need more than this from a hero with super senses and super speed. After all, the Reid Superman failed some in the first movie but he always tried. You could have had him start heading that way as the mechanism fired and just not get there in time.

[Vanguard-01]

I haven't. I don't really want to give it more money.

But I don't need Superman to detect the bomb. Quiet mechanism masked by the noise of the courtroom, sure. But I'd still have liked to have seen him not just standing there after the explosion.

Besides this gets back to the point of there being plot logical reasons for things happening, I don't care. This isn't whats supposed to happen in Superman stories. He doesn't need to succeed, but I need more than this from a hero with super senses and super speed. After all, the Reid Superman failed some in the first movie but he always tried. You could have had him start heading that way as the mechanism fired and just not get there in time.

He doesn't just stand there after the explosion either. In the Ultimate Cut, he is clearly shown flying people out of the Capitol building and getting them to medical care.

[Stanlos]

In short, it would sell and break records.

[SiegePerilous02]

If the critics and comic fans loved it, and the GA was apathetic to it and it tanked, I would probably just laugh.

A little bitterly, but laugh nonetheless.

[manofsteel1979]

This is a very specific scenario you made here. Are you saying what if such a movie didn't make a billion but still made a profit?

In part,but I think the ultimate point im making or trying to get all of us to think about is the fact that as fans ,when something we like fails to excite the larger audience,or falls below expectations financially or just outright fails,we assume we know the answer to fix it and make the general public fall in love with something the way we have,or we assume the general audience has the same expectations we do. I keep seeing the supposition that if only the people in charge would just do a bright,happy fun,light... whatever term one wants to use,Superman movie, it would make a billion dollars easily and be a smash hit. Well...what if it just does ok and we geeks embrace it while everyone else goes " meh." I honestly think that's a high possibility if not a probability.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

...and it also falls below box office gross expectations like the current DCEU Superman and Superman Returns?

What I mean is what if , after JL and the series gets rebooted and we got brightly colored costume,trunks and tights and all,completely competent and fully formed idol who doesn't get sad,doesn't make mistakes,almost always smiling and making quips,with paragon of virtue adoptive parents...you name it. Classic as it gets without going full Donner...we get all of that with a decent story...and it also didn't meet the all vaunted box office expectations.

Where would you go from there? Would that mean that it's more about the Superman brand than a specific version? Would we still get the hand wringing and belly aching over the movies not beating Marvel? Do you think Warner's would then overcompensate and go full grim dark...or just give up on big screen Superman?

Interesting question. My guess is that they'd just give the brand some rest, like they did between Superman IV and Superman Returns (19 years), and the latter and Man Of Steel (7 years).

What I think is that what it all comes down to is the different conceptions people have of Superman. Everyone has his headcanon. Everyone has a specific image of what Superman "should" be. So in that sense, I'm thinking it's possible that a Superman movie will not reach the box office success of other (i.e. Dark Knight and Marvel) movies (of course, those BO expectations are set by the studio. I think that both MOS and BvS made a ton of money, but then again what do I know). IMO, I wouldn't go back to THAT scenario. Too naive and outdated. Perry White was right when he said to Clark "it's not 1938". I loved MOS and BvS, and I understand what the filmmakers did in those films. When Zack and Deborah Snyder said that they "felt Superman had to go through something" in order to become the Superman we know, I agreed. It's not realistic to think that he'd be the infallible, always optimistic hero we are used to seeing from day one. He has to grow into that version.

Yes, I know that when we look for Superman stories we're not talking about realism. But I think that if he was raised as a human, it's only normal to feel doubt and anger sometimes.

In conclusion, yours a very tricky question. Superman is the most important fictional character ever created, and his symbol is the second most recognized one in the world, but sadly that doesn't guarantee that his movies will be earth-shattering hits, because well, it's how things go. And those damned critics certainly WON'T help.

EDIT: forgot to mention that part of the issue is that Batman and Marvel are more popular nowadays (and that is DC's fault).

[Lightning Rider]

We want a Superman movie made by people who aren't embarrassed by the source material.

Funny, the Superman fans that seem most upset seem to be the ones embarassed by the vast source material that depicts Superman as having internal struggles.

[Jon Clark]

We don't want a completely infallible Pollyanna. We want a fun character, like what comics used to be. We want a Superman movie made by people who aren't embarrassed by the source material.

I'm not criticizing you for your assessment of what we say we want. You're right that people have named all of those things, I've named some of them.

Sometimes its hard for people to articulate exactly what we want, we look at superficial traits.

That sums up what I see in a lot of this.

Someone says they want Superman to smile and the reply is "So he has to be happy 100% of the time."

Because a lot of the posters are wanting the pendulum to swing away from the excesses of the film, doesn't mean we want excesses on the other side. Saying I disliked the intense take of Ben Affleck's Batman isn't necessarily a call for Adam West's Batman sensibilities. And wanting a Superman who is less depressing isn't the same as wanting a guy who never has doubts or problems. It just means that I want more scenes that aren't Superman facing only problems and doubts. I want that "Superman saves cat from tree" moment or "Superman stops crime without massive property damage" scene to contrast the "I saved Metropolis" moment with Zod's corpse in full view and wreckage as far as the eye can see.

Superman is not grim. He likes being Superman. This doesn't mean he's happy all the time. There's a difference between liking being Superman and having a perky bubbly personality. MoS Superman feels emotionally crushed by the burden. .

My favorite scene in Man of Steel was Clark discovering he could fly. I wanted to see that guy more in the film- someone who was clearly enjoying the moment and using his powers.