What would happen if we got the Movie Superman the critics of the Snyder verse say they want...

[Zero Hunter]

Maybe killing somebody on screen wasn't the best way to go, but that's just me. I found MoS to actually be a pretty rock solid Superman film, outside of that. It was the incoherent mess of BvS that pissed me off.

I agree with most of this. I understood story-wise why they went with killing Zod though. The studio just needs to take a step back and relax and stop panicing so much over every bad review they get and just tell a good story. I think that was 50% of the problem with BvS is them trying to coarse correct midway through something and ending up with a jumbled up mess. I think that is part of Suicide Squads problem too. Hopefully going forward they will stop trying to change things up in the middle of filming.

[Carabas]

didn't bryan singer try back in 2006?

superman returns total gross was <400mil.

The keyword here is "try".

He missed the target by a mile and instead we got a creepy, stalking, deadbeat Superdad who makes Snyder!Supes seem downright Super.

[Batmaniac]

I think that's generalizing just a bit. I mean I can't speak for everyone else, but as someone who's not big on the DC Extended Universe's Superman - or Batman, for that matter - a Silver Age-esque Superman who's infallible is not what I'm looking for in a cinematic Superman. I just don't want a cynical Superman that does nothing but struggle with self doubt, and is burdened by being a hero - because that's not who Superman is.

I believe a quality movie that does the Superman character all-around justice is all anybody is really looking for, and I'm convinced such a movie would click with professional critics, fans, and general audiences alike, and do well at the box office - granted it was marketed as well as Warner Bros. latest efforts. If it didn't... well, that'd be a darn shame, wouldn't it?

[JAK]

a Silver Age-esque Superman who's infallible is not what I'm looking for in a cinematic Superman. I just don't want a cynical Superman that does nothing but struggle with self doubt, and is burdened by being a hero - because that's not who Superman is.

I very much feel the same way. To be fair, there have been times that Superman has been characterized in the comics as "a cynical Superman that does nothing but struggle with self doubt, and is burdened by being a hero," so there is a precedent." But that's like the worst parts of "Grounded" or that story in the Superman titles that was mostly about religion.

[superduperman]

Then I would conclude that there is something wrong with Superman in the eyes of the public, honestly. In which case, I'm not sure what would save him. Superman isn't that hard to get right. And Brainiac has never been used in a movie. So if you get a movie where Brainiac is the villain and he gets the perfect origin and the perfect parents and the perfect costume and the perfect Lois and Luthor and Clark and what have you and it still bombs then I honestly don't know what else could be done. MOS was incredibly flawed on a number of levels. So it's not that hard to do better. To be fair, I think a lot of people want to "improve" the character instead of just doing a straight up adaptation. We saw this with MOS, we saw this with Returns, we saw this with that abomination that Jon Peters wanted to get off the ground. No one wants to just "do" Superman. So if you do that and it still bombs then I don't know what to tell you. Other than there is something wrong with the name recognition.

[13th Superman]

I'm almost wondering if Superman might not work better as a period piece. Bring him down to his early Golden Age power levels and set the story in the late 1930's. Play up Superman as a symbol of hope and justice in a depression-era Metropolis. Show Lois Lane trying to be taken seriously in a male-dominated profession. Lex Luthor can be a mad scientist with all the retro-tech toys of the time (boxy robots, jetpacks, etc.).

Going to the Golden Age for power levels lets you use the original 'super-evolved humans from a high-gravity world' (perhaps tying in with some lost advanced civilization like Atlantis if you wanted to more organically bring in Wonder Woman or Aquaman for an expanded universe or with 'ancient alien' abductions if you wanted to say put Brainiac into the mix. It also means that you can leave out kryptonite or similar exotic weaknesses in favor of 'bursting shells' being a threat.

Then there are the obvious advantages of the 1938 setting. Print journalism was alive and well, there were no omnipresent cameraphones, spy satellites, radar or even television to make his spaceship's arrival (c. 1913) or maintaining his secret identity problematic. Similarly, babies were still being born at home in rural areas of the country (my grandfather once told me that they didn't even get a rail line through their town until 1918 and people still used horses and carriages until the 20's) so no fake adoption or 'blizzard of the century' needed to conceal his origins. Throw in a scene at the circus (with a strongman) and you've got the visual cues for Superman's classic uniform complete with trunks.

A lack of child labor laws or need for college degrees also allows for both a true kid photographer Jimmy Olsen and how Clark could go right from the farm to a job as a reporter without a journalism degree.

You could even throw in the Nazi 'Ubermench' propaganda of the era (eugenics was wildly popular among the upper/political class in the United States until Hitler made it politically unviable) with Superman as a deliberate counterpunch at the Aryan ideal.

Personally, I'd pull the twist from the K-Metal story and let Lois learn the secret and the two become partners; mostly because its fresher than 'triangle for two' but also because it feels more realistic. The lack of internet/television and Superman pulling the golden age vigilante act of not sticking around can explain why his secret identity works with the public, but not why someone who's seen both Clark and Superman wouldn't be able to put it together pretty quickly.

Frankly, a whole lot of DC's biggest name heroes could work as well or even better in that time period; Wonder Woman and Batman were both born in that era as well and a test pilot who gets an alien power ring, a forensic scientist, an Atlantean prince and an alien from Mars pulled to Earth by mad-science would all fit into that time period quite easily.

Keeping the stories set consistently in that era would also be a great way to visually set a rebooted DCCU apart from the decidely contemporary MCU.

So that would be my pitch for a Superman movie that could embrace the Superman mythos for what it is in a way that would appeal to diehard fans, general audiences and critics alike. A big part of what gets labelled as 'hokie' by critics and general audiences is only because that element has become divorced from the era it was introduced in (ex. the uniform being inspired by circus strongmen of the time) so re-grounding the story in that era provides the context to keep those elements in the story without them feeling 'hokie'.

This. This. This! This is what I want to see!
do-want-cookie-monster.jpg

[beetee]

This is a "Planet Strawman" argument and thread. People seem to forget that Superman Returns attempted to complicate and "darken" the Donner era Supes, complete with darker toned costumes, a more psychotic interpretation of Luthor by Kevin Spacey, Brendan Routh as a somber Space Jesus, and most importantly an out of wedlock kid that he had abandoned, leading some fans to call him Super(deadbeat)Dad. This is the film that underperformed at the box office.

[AcesX1X]

The keyword here is "try".

He missed the target by a mile and instead we got a creepy, stalking, deadbeat Superdad who makes Snyder!Supes seem downright Super.

he was very creepy.. tho i suppose his heart was in the right place.

[JAK]

he was very creepy.. tho i suppose his heart was in the right place.

You mean right about here? lol

heart.jpg

Sorry.. couldn't help myself.

[unholyrevenger72]

The keyword here is "try".

He missed the target by a mile and instead we got a creepy, stalking, deadbeat Superdad who makes Snyder!Supes seem downright Super.

He didn't try. He hit Creepy Donner Superman out of the fuckin park. He just didn't realize that the audiences had wizened up and realized Donner Superman is pretty fuckin terrible.

[JAK]

He didn't try. He hit Creepy Donner Superman out of the fuckin park. He just didn't realize that the audiences had wizened up and realized Donner Superman is pretty fuckin terrible.

I know where you may be going with this, but how would you call the Donner Superman creepy?

[manofsteel1979]

I know where you may be going with this, but how would you call the Donner Superman creepy?

Well,if he's talking about Superman 2 and the mind erase kiss or his tossing a powerless Zod into a bottomless pit to his death while smirking,that is less a Richard Donner thing and more of a Richard Lester thing. Donner wouldn't have done the mind erase kiss had he shot II like he hoped he could,and his original material shot has the Zoners being led away by the Artic police.

Singer Superman was pretty creepy for that one infamous scene .

[unholyrevenger72]

I know where you may be going with this, but how would you call the Donner Superman creepy?

His fixation on Lois. He travels time, conveniently forgetting his most important life lesson (he can't save everyone), to save her and ONLY her from Lex's real estate scheme fallout. He pines for Lois for two whole movies, they finally consummate their 'love' after killing three people. He decides rather than just break up with her after a hit it and quit it relationship, he does the creepiest most vile and anti-superman thing imaginable. He violates her free will and the sanctity of her personal memories and erases them with out discussion or consent.

So when people say "Returns didn't capture Donner Superman." I say "No, Singer fuckin Nailed it"

[JAK]

His fixation on Lois. He travels time, conveniently forgetting his most important life lesson (he can't save everyone), to save her and ONLY her from Lex's real estate scheme fallout. He pines for Lois for two whole movies, they finally consummate their 'love' after killing three people. He decides rather than just break up with her after a hit it and quit it relationship, he does the creepiest most vile and anti-superman thing imaginable. He violates her free will and the sanctity of her personal memories and erases them with out discussion or consent.

So when people say "Returns didn't capture Donner Superman." I say "No, Singer fuckin Nailed it"

Yeah, that's pretty much where I thought you were headed, but wanted to be sure.

I'd argue that that's more of a Lester thing - had Donner been able to do the original plan, the going back in time part would have been at the end of Superman Ii, negating some of that but certainly not all of it. So I do see where you're coming from there.

As for "consummating their love after killing three people" I assume you're referring to Zod, Ursa and Non? Because I might have to push back a bit on that.

When most people say "Donner's Superman" theyre usually referring to Superman: The Movie and the overall tone and general optimism of the series. That's the part that Singer's "Superman Returns" didn't nail for most people, I'd wager. If they'd gone in the direction that fans generally voiced, "make the world darker but not Superman's characterization itself"... not to mention giving Superman more than 8 or so lines and not stealing half of those from "Superman: The Movie", it likely would have performed much better. The dour tone really hurt it, imo.

[Agent Z]

This is a "Planet Strawman" argument and thread. People seem to forget that Superman Returns attempted to complicate and "darken" the Donner era Supes, complete with darker toned costumes, a more psychotic interpretation of Luthor by Kevin Spacey, Brendan Routh as a somber Space Jesus, and most importantly an out of wedlock kid that he had abandoned, leading some fans to call him Super(deadbeat)Dad. This is the film that underperformed at the box office.

He didn't even know Lois was pregnant when he left Earth. He'd have to have known about Jason to be considered a dead beat.