The DC cinematic universe's perception problem, could it be an issue of the era of comics they are pulling from...

[mathew101281]

Marvel's movies seem to be pulling aesthetically and thematically from the Silver and Bronze age (with a little bit of the Ultimates tossed in to modernize it). DC/WB on the other hand seems to be pulling heavily from the 80's and 90's when it comics to tone and stories adapted (Dark Knight returns, Death of Superman etc.). Could this be part of the problem? The Silver Age and Bronze Age style Superheroes are looked back one with nostalgia, but their has been a serious backlash targeted at a lot of the tropes and stylistic sensibilities of 80's and 90's comics. Even the "classics" from that era haven't escaped the backlash (The Killing Joke, Frank Miller etc.) I'm not saying the general audience knows a 90's comic book character from a Silver Age one, but they probably do notice the difference in tone. In the 90's edgy was cool, and extreme was a buzz word, but nowadays that aesthetic is mocked and ridiculed a lot. The term "Edgelord," was coined mock a lot of the tropes common in media from that time.

[Doctor Know]

The problem isn't with the tales, it's with the teller. Snyder had all the ingredients to make BvS as epic as we all imagined it would be, but bumbled it in the execution.

[Cyke]

The problem isn't with the tales, it's with the teller. Snyder had all the ingredients to make BvS as epic as we all imagined it would be, but bumbled it in the execution.

I imagine it's a mix of both, though I'm more willing to blame Snyder. Nolan's Batfilms are grittier but much better received, because if fits Batman. Superman shouldn't need to go through that. The grittiness and darkness fits Suicide Squad, but its plot was pretty nonsensical, and Snyder has a hand in that.

But as far as the tales and source material, I imagine we'll have to wait a bit and see. If Justice League turns out to be just as dark as BvS, it's probably from the Nu52 era, which hasn't exactly been a bright spot (pun intended) for DC. i'm greatly looking forward to more of Rebirth. But also note that the DC TV shows are much more consistently well-received, and maybe not coincidentally do NOT follow the Nu52 template. But then again, they also have better storytellers, too.

I'm thinking of Wonder Woman. The movie was born of BvS obviously, but the trailer looks so much better than the movies that came before it. I'm not sure how much of teller vs. tales has to do with it, if at all, but it seems to be at a better place than the other movies for now.

[dragonmp93]

Marvel's movies seem to be pulling aesthetically and thematically from the Silver and Bronze age (with a little bit of the Ultimates tossed in to modernize it). DC/WB on the other hand seems to be pulling heavily from the 80's and 90's when it comics to tone and stories adapted (Dark Knight returns, Death of Superman etc.). Could this be part of the problem? The Silver Age and Bronze Age style Superheroes are looked back one with nostalgia, but their has been a serious backlash targeted at a lot of the tropes and stylistic sensibilities of 80's and 90's comics. Even the "classics" from that era haven't escaped the backlash (The Killing Joke, Frank Miller etc.) I'm not saying the general audience knows a 90's comic book character from a Silver Age one, but they probably do notice the difference in tone. In the 90's edgy was cool, and extreme was a buzz word, but nowadays that aesthetic is mocked and ridiculed a lot. The term "Edgelord," was coined mock a lot of the tropes common in media from that time.

So that's what where the term comes from, huh ?.

The problem isn't with the tales, it's with the teller. Snyder had all the ingredients to make BvS as epic as we all imagined it would be, but bumbled it in the execution.

Snyder would be perfect for a movie about this guy:

[Doctor Know]

I imagine it's a mix of both, though I'm more willing to blame Snyder. Nolan's Batfilms are grittier but much better received, because if fits Batman. Superman shouldn't need to go through that. The grittiness and darkness fits Suicide Squad, but its plot was pretty nonsensical, and Snyder has a hand in that.

But as far as the tales and source material, I imagine we'll have to wait a bit and see. If Justice League turns out to be just as dark as BvS, it's probably from the Nu52 era, which hasn't exactly been a bright spot (pun intended) for DC. i'm greatly looking forward to more of Rebirth. But also note that the DC TV shows are much more consistently well-received, and maybe not coincidentally do NOT follow the Nu52 template. But then again, they also have better storytellers, too.

I'm thinking of Wonder Woman. The movie was born of BvS obviously, but the trailer looks so much better than the movies that came before it. I'm not sure how much of teller vs. tales has to do with it, if at all, but it seems to be at a better place than the other movies for now.

You make a good point about Nolan's films.

Batman Begins is a combination of Neal Adams Batman from 70s and Frank Miller's Batman Year One from 1986.

The Dark Knight is a combination of TDKReturns (1985), The Killing Joke (1988) and The Long Halloween (1994-1996).

The Dark Knight Rises is a combination of No Man's Land (1999-2000) and Knightfall (1994).

Nolan of course adding his own imaginings to these well known stories, of course.


So, it's not the age (comic age) of the material. It's how well a director, producer and writer can reimagine these stories. Snyder had The Dark Knight Returns and Death of Superman to adapt, and even had WW to add to his vision of the story. And it fell flat with most people. Had he told the story better, more people would've appreciated it.

[Holt]

It's funny you say that because I wouldn't say the Marvel movies pull from the Silver and Bronze age all that much if you're talking aesthetics. The costume designs overwhelmingly favor the more recent comics with a few exceptions. Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye, War Machine, Falcon, Scarlet Witch, Black Panther, Nick Fury, and Ant-Man mostly resemble either their Ultimate counterparts or their modernized redesigns from the last decade or so of the mainline comics. The only ones who I'd say honestly skew heavily towards their original Silver or Bronze Age looks are Doctor Strange and the Vision.

I agree with pretty much everything else in your post, though.

[Siddon]

The problem with DC is really simple, it's been the same issue with every movie(sans Nolan) they've made.

Either
A. it's a bloated mess, three films crammed into one (Green Lantern, Batman V Superman, Man of Steel)
B. it was a bloated mess but it was hatched to pieces (Catwoman, Jonah Hex, Suicide Squad)

[beetee]

The problem with DC is really simple, it's been the same issue with every movie(sans Nolan) they've made.

Either
A. it's a bloated mess, three films crammed into one (Green Lantern, Batman V Superman, Man of Steel)
B. it was a bloated mess but it was hatched to pieces (Catwoman, Jonah Hex, Suicide Squad)

This. The filmmaking has been truly bad. DC/WB neither trusts nor has patience with the source materials ( except Batman)

[Doctor Know]

The problem with DC is really simple, it's been the same issue with every movie(sans Nolan) they've made.

Either
A. it's a bloated mess, three films crammed into one (Green Lantern, Batman V Superman, Man of Steel)
B. it was a bloated mess but it was hatched to pieces (Catwoman, Jonah Hex, Suicide Squad)

Which category does Superman Returns fit into?

[Supernova]

Which category does Superman Returns fit into?

Boring homage?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The problem with DC is really simple, it's been the same issue with every movie(sans Nolan) they've made.

Either
A. it's a bloated mess, three films crammed into one (Green Lantern, Batman V Superman, Man of Steel)
B. it was a bloated mess but it was hatched to pieces (Catwoman, Jonah Hex, Suicide Squad)

BvS I can understand I agree to an extent but neither MoS or GL felt bloated or 3 films crammed in once. MoS was a near masterpiece. GL was just badly done corporate film.

[kalorama]

If it's a "perception problem" wouldn't the problem be primarily with the people doing the perceiving?

[AcesX1X]

If it's a "perception problem" wouldn't the problem be primarily with the people doing the perceiving?

yes indeed

[matthew]

It's the teller. Go look at Zach Snyder's rotten tomatoes page and count the number of "rotten" and the number of "fresh" movies. Hire a bad director, get bad movies. It's not rocket science and there is no conspiracy against Zach Snyder. He's just a bad storyteller, move on.

[Midvillian1322]

BvS I can understand I agree to an extent but neither MoS or GL felt bloated or 3 films crammed in once. MoS was a near masterpiece. GL was just badly done corporate film.

Never heard anyone call MoS a near masterpeice before. Better then BvS sure but only because Russel crowe and Michale Shannon.