I've noticed the two Tim Burton/Michael Keaton films seem to be rarely discussed by Batfans, either in a positive or negative sense. I was just wondering what your opinion of these two films is.

I love the 1989 film. It was one of my earliest exposures to Batman, and Batman:The Animated Series owes a large debt to this film. Nicholson's Joker was excellent, Keaton was great as both Wayne and Batman, and I loved his Joker's taste for over-the-top theatrics in comparison to Heath Ledger's Joker's more grounded terrorism. My only criticism is I didn't like how spoilers:
Joker killed Wayne's parents. A big part of Batman's origin to me is that his parent's killer was just "some punk with a gun", rather than a criminal mastermind.
end of spoilers

I didn't quite like Batman Returns as much, but I still greatly enjoyed it. Pfeiffer's portrayal of Catwoman is pretty much perfect - I still think she slightly edges out Anne Hathaway's - and Devito was excellent as the Penguin as well. My only criticisms are spoilers:
Penguin's origin could have used more development, and his death was a bit anti-climactic. I also didn't like how Batman seemingly casually killed some of Penguin's mooks. Yea, firm believer in Batman-never-kills.
end of spoilers

So what do you think of these two seemingly-mostly-forgotten Batman films?