My issue with Superdad and the new/old status quo.

[Superlad93]

I think it's also worth noting that Tomasi is writing Jon as a sort of super powered Jonny Quest, and that in and of itself is a very fun idea. It seems that he'll only be turning up the volume on that with coming issues

[db105]

It's funny how the reactions to this are quite different depending on the forum. Here there's quite a lot of negativism. In Reddit they seem to love the idea:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...having_a_wife/
I guess that the demographics are different.

[manduck37]

It's funny how the reactions to this are quite different depending on the forum. Here there's quite a lot of negativism. In Reddit they seem to love the idea:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...having_a_wife/
I guess that the demographics are different.

In addition to this, the comics are getting great reviews. We're seeing Superman comics getting perfect scores. How often does that happen?

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Those us that don't like Action Comics are in the minority, and those of that don't like Superman are a even smaller minority.

But I'm not going to complain about having a different opinion to that of the majority of Reddit.

In addition to this, the comics are getting great reviews. We're seeing Superman comics getting perfect scores. How often does that happen?

I think the last time one of the main Superman books consistently getting perfect scores from reviewers was back when Pak started his Action run.

[D4BBT]

In addition to this, the comics are getting great reviews. We're seeing Superman comics getting perfect scores. How often does that happen?

Since when do DC fans care about reviews? The movies being the prime example. People say that these are great new stories, but to me they're just rehashed stories with new secondary twists like Lex being a hero and Jon being part of the fold. Is this the only way to appease old time Superman fans? I'd challenge people to re-read some of the trades from the New 52. They seem to have more new ideas than anything we are getting right now. IMO the only good plot line going right now is the Oz characters role and the mystery surrounding it.

[GigiFusc]

Personally speaking, I don't want Superman to be paternalistic AT ALL with anyone. I don't like him
when he is paternalistic towards his son and I don't like him when he is paternalistic with Lois, Lana or anyone else. I'm sure that one of the major reasons Superman has less appeal than Batman among readers is that nobody likes people who teach lessons.


Also, I don't think that Supersons will radically change Jon's role in Superman series. Maybe - MAYBE - it will make Jon a bit more sympathetic than he currently is (not hard). But I don't think that in Superman's life anything will change. As I said, Clark simply needs Jon right now (yes, it's sad but that's it). More than Jon needs Clark.

I'm gonna have to agree with this. And before anyone pulls up the 'maybe it's a dad thing', I'm a father of two.

The switch from an all out superhero that puts his life on the line to save anyone to a husband & father figure who will inevitably be focused on his wife and child isn't sitting well with me. I can see why some might like it, but it's not doing it for me right now. Maybe if their relationship changes it might get better? For example, it would be real interesting if something bad were to happen and Jon turns against his father? I like the idea of a family enemy over a family.

[D4BBT]

I'm gonna have to agree with this. And before anyone pulls up the 'maybe it's a dad thing', I'm a father of two.

The switch from an all out superhero that puts his life on the line to save anyone to a husband & father figure who will inevitably be focused on his wife and child isn't sitting well with me. I can see why some might like it, but it's not doing it for me right now. Maybe if their relationship changes it might get better? For example, it would be real interesting if something bad were to happen and Jon turns against his father? I like the idea of a family enemy over a family.

Wouldn't that be an all time twist. Jon goes rogue because of the mixing of DNA's kinda like the abomination created by Lex in BvS.

[manofsteel1979]

Since when do DC fans care about reviews? The movies being the prime example. People say that these are great new stories, but to me they're just rehashed stories with new secondary twists like Lex being a hero and Jon being part of the fold. Is this the only way to appease old time Superman fans? I'd challenge people to re-read some of the trades from the New 52. They seem to have more new ideas than anything we are getting right now. IMO the only good plot line going right now is the Oz characters role and the mystery surrounding it.

Well,one could counter argue that aside from Sm/WW and putting him in an armored suit,the New 52 wasn't all that new or brimming with new ideas unless the stories were written by Morrison or Pak,and even then some of it was a rehash of stuff done before and better. I mean,i liked Morrison's origin and all but did we really need yet a third freaking retelling of the origin in 5 years? Did we have to live through yet another boring long crossover based around Doomsday? Was a year long story about Superman losing his powers really necessary or new? And don't get me started on the steaming pile that constituted " He'll on Earth/Return of Krypton." I still don't understand the end of that later story after trying to reread it a third time recently. Granted,ACTION rehashed DOOMSDAY again,but at least it was over and done in 6 issues. Not spread out to 12 regular issues and 3 over sized specials.

Plus,with Jon they are actually doing new things with the mythos. Superman has never had an in continuity son. We've had 70 plus years of a Superman who wasn't a dad. What's the harm with trying something really new for say a few years? If it doesn't work out and enough readers get tired of it, it will just be undone somehow. The Super marriage prior to FLASHPOINT and SM/WW are a testament to it. It's comics after all.Nothing is permanent.

And...if Jon proves popular with a majority of readers and he sticks around indefinitely...well,good. it's a new toy and concept in the mythos. If it leads to good stories and good sales and a few new avenues to explore,whats the harm? A healthy Superman line means a healthier DC Comics and a healthier comics industry IMO. Let's face it. Superman as a line hasn't been healthy for a long long long time. Since the early 2000s. The New 52 briefly gained signs of new life,but it was pissed away. I'm not completely confident the current status quo won't find the same fate,but I'm all for out of the box against the grain new ideas if actually well executed. So far,aside from hiccups in ACTION COMICS,its been well done.

[D4BBT]

Well,one could counter argue that aside from Sm/WW and putting him in an armored suit,the New 52 wasn't all that new or brimming with new ideas unless the stories were written by Morrison or Pak,and even then some of it was a rehash of stuff done before and better. I mean,i liked Morrison's origin and all but did we really need yet a third freaking retelling of the origin in 5 years? Did we have to live through yet another boring long crossover based around Doomsday? Was a year long story about Superman losing his powers really necessary or new? And don't get me started on the steaming pile that constituted " He'll on Earth/Return of Krypton." I still don't understand the end of that later story after trying to reread it a third time recently. Granted,ACTION rehashed DOOMSDAY again,but at least it was over and done in 6 issues. Not spread out to 12 regular issues and 3 over sized specials.

Morrison's run was 18 issues and only 1 of those was the origin. The Doomsday crossover read much better in trade, and I'd argue that the main focus of the story was not Doomsday himself but what happened to Superman after he defeated this very different version of Doomsday. Honestly, if they had called Doomsday by a different name they could have created a new character because he was that different IMO. Truth is a tough one to defend, but I haven't read that in trade yet. It might be better. I personally enjoyed H'el on Earth in the trade and that was a completely new villain and story. Return of Krypton was meh, but they can't all be gems. Some stories didn't get a chance because of editorial and talent changes. Helspont looked promising IMO.

Also, the Doomsday arc may be over but that story is still there with him being intercepted by Oz. Plus we're still seeing Eraticator in the other title.

Plus,with Jon they are actually doing new things with the mythos. Superman has never had an in continuity son. We've had 70 plus years of a Superman who wasn't a dad. What's the harm with trying something really new for say a few years? If it doesn't work out and enough readers get tired of it, it will just be undone somehow. The Super marriage prior to FLASHPOINT and SM/WW are a testament to it. It's comics after all.Nothing is permanent.

A story is still a story weather it's in continuity or not. That being said Christopher Kent was a son and Superman played a fatherly role. Chris had powers, and Supes tried to protect him, blah, blah, blah.

And...if Jon proves popular with a majority of readers and he sticks around indefinitely...well,good. it's a new toy and concept in the mythos. If it leads to good stories and good sales and a few new avenues to explore,whats the harm? A healthy Superman line means a healthier DC Comics and a healthier comics industry IMO. Let's face it. Superman as a line hasn't been healthy for a long long long time. Since the early 2000s. The New 52 briefly gained signs of new life,but it was pissed away. I'm not completely confident the current status quo won't find the same fate,but I'm all for out of the box against the grain new ideas if actually well executed. So far,aside from hiccups in ACTION COMICS,its been well done.

IMO DC is screwing up Superman. They spend all this time creating a new status quo, and then take it away. They can't seem to stick with a version. Has anyone listed them? Even in the broadest strokes there are at least 4. Golden age, Silver age, Modern age, New 52. These are different takes on the character and Superman fans have their favorites. This is the divide created within the Superman fandom, and why he can't be the number 1 hero in terms of sales. Fans of the character can't even agree which incarnation is the best. Compare that to Batman and you're talking 2....Campy or not, and most prefer the "not". Can we simplify Superman down to 2, or get a consensus on 1? I don't think it can be done and I think DC is to blame.

When Batman has a son, it doesn't change him as a character. IMO a son changes Superman as a character. Here's why... I read Superman as a kid, but stopped to focus on other things like sports and girls. Now as an adult, I'm married and can't play sports like I used to so I've gone back to the hobby that I enjoyed back then. Because of this, I missed a lot of the post-crisis Superman stories and the only ones I've really read are those that come highly recommended as trades. Most of those are out of continuity BTW. If anyone has in continuity recommendations aside from DOS, I'm all ears. New 52 was when I got back into comics and Superman as a character. The confident/brash characteristics made sense for a young powerful hero just getting started, while at his core he was still just a guy trying to do the right thing. Now this guy is gone and is replaced with someone who has a wife and kid to worry about, and can't just focus on doing the right thing because of the effect it can/will have on his family. IMO we're trading this hero looking for the greater good for a dad who can't forget about his family while making decision. Compared to Batman, who isn't really a dad to Damian. Superman can't be that way with Jon.

[manduck37]

Since when do DC fans care about reviews? The movies being the prime example. People say that these are great new stories, but to me they're just rehashed stories with new secondary twists like Lex being a hero and Jon being part of the fold. Is this the only way to appease old time Superman fans? I'd challenge people to re-read some of the trades from the New 52. They seem to have more new ideas than anything we are getting right now. IMO the only good plot line going right now is the Oz characters role and the mystery surrounding it.

I'm sure many DC fans care about reviews. You don't speak for all of fandom. Though the point is that there are fans and reviewers out there that like this direction and find a lot of new and fun things in the current direction. In other words, positive feedback on the new direction. Besides, New 52 Superman isn't actually anything new. It's just a rehash of Pre-Crisis Superman. You have your Golden Age origin rehash, first time meeting of various villains, the Kents are dead, and so on. Even the Superman Wonder Woman relationship was done before. The way things are now with a married family man Superman is actually the boldest and most drastic change to the mythos in decades. That's where the new ideas are. The whole idea that Superman would stop saving people because he has a family or would put his family before everyone else on the planet is completely false. We're not seeing that in the books. There is no indication of that coming in the books. We're getting an intro to Jon for his spin off book and Superman is still Superman in every way. Just now he has an expanded supporting cast, new story possibilities and more people seem to want to read his comics. Numbers don't lie. So while you may not like the current direction (which I'm sorry to hear), it's in no way damaging to Superman. If anything, he's getting more positive buzz now than he has in years.

[manofsteel1979]

Many of the same people that seem to be the most vocal about the supposed damage or limitations this new status quo is inflicting on the franchise are the ones that through their rose colored nostalgia goggles mourn the supposed lost potential of the New 52 incarnation. Both of which,of course only exists in theory and on paper but not borne out thus far. The New 52 could have been great. By all rights it should have been. It wasn't. It ended up where it ended up and nothing can change that. The current status quo,may be a failure ultimately too,but we won't know until it's tried. Let's see how it all plays out over the next while before we make so many assumptions.

[D4BBT]

I'm sure many DC fans care about reviews. You don't speak for all of fandom. Though the point is that there are fans and reviewers out there that like this direction and find a lot of new and fun things in the current direction. In other words, positive feedback on the new direction. Besides, New 52 Superman isn't actually anything new. It's just a rehash of Pre-Crisis Superman. You have your Golden Age origin rehash, first time meeting of various villains, the Kents are dead, and so on. Even the Superman Wonder Woman relationship was done before. The way things are now with a married family man Superman is actually the boldest and most drastic change to the mythos in decades. That's where the new ideas are. The whole idea that Superman would stop saving people because he has a family or would put his family before everyone else on the planet is completely false. We're not seeing that in the books. There is no indication of that coming in the books. We're getting an intro to Jon for his spin off book and Superman is still Superman in every way. Just now he has an expanded supporting cast, new story possibilities and more people seem to want to read his comics. Numbers don't lie. So while you may not like the current direction (which I'm sorry to hear), it's in no way damaging to Superman. If anything, he's getting more positive buzz now than he has in years.

Of course some fans care about reviews. It' called speaking in generalities. When the majority act a certain way, you make a generality knowing that there is and are always outliers. Now I only speak in generalities when there are actual stats to back it up, and in this case I used the movie going audience.

Are you equating the ending of Kingdom Come to a fully fledged story about Sm/WW?

So this is not a rehash of the Christopher Kent situation?

Superman 4 of Rebirth has him saving his family with the hope that the Eradicator would follow. His main goal was the safety of his family. Bibbo's comment doesn't change Superman's main concern in the fight...saving his family.

Numbers are always great when there is a reboot, and I'd argue the main reason the numbers are maintaining is because they're dragging New 52 Superman fans along with the outside hope he may return. If that story line was part of this, we'd see numbers drop just like the New 52. Also, I'm pretty sure the reviews were great for Morrison at the beginning of his run too.

I'm not saying you're wrong for liking it. I'm telling you why I dislike it, and I don't think anyone can deny that there is a divide within Superman fans that you don't really see with any other character DC or Marvel. Part of the problem are these drastic changes. You can't tell me this is the same character as New 52 Superman, because I would just reference you to all the post-crisis fans that were complaining about the New 52.

[D4BBT]

Many of the same people that seem to be the most vocal about the supposed damage or limitations this new status quo is inflicting on the franchise are the ones that through their rose colored nostalgia goggles mourn the supposed lost potential of the New 52 incarnation. Both of which,of course only exists in theory and on paper but not borne out thus far. The New 52 could have been great. By all rights it should have been. It wasn't. It ended up where it ended up and nothing can change that. The current status quo,may be a failure ultimately too,but we won't know until it's tried. Let's see how it all plays out over the next while before we make so many assumptions.

I don't think Superman comics will ever get to where they where when he was at the top of his popularity, which I largely blame DC for because of the divide they have created.

Saying that New 52 wasn't great is an opinion. I enjoyed many of the stories. To say it wasn't great because of sales is different, but I would then direct you to Superman sales prior to New 52.

These aren't just assumptions. In both books, it feels like Superman is putting his family first. This is the idea at the heart of my problem with this new status quo.

[Superlad93]

Are you equating the ending of Kingdom Come to a fully fledged story about Sm/WW?

Post-Crisis aka Superdad and Wonder Woman dated shortly in continuity.

So this is not a rehash of the Christopher Kent situation?

It isn't. There are several factors that make it different from Christopher's situation

Superman 4 of Rebirth has him saving his family with the hope that the Eradicator would follow.

This is super not true. Eradicator's main goal is getting Kal-El and Jon. He doesn't care about Earth or it's people. He is strictly her FOR KAL AND JON. So logic dictates that if Superman moves the battle from Earth then Eradicator will follow because he is there FOR KAL AND JON. There is no "hope" that he will follow. There is only fact. Again, Kal and Jon are the things that he wants so he will follow them where they go.

You can dislike the idea of the son and the family, and I (and I'm sure others here) respect your views on the matter, but continuing to use this particular point doesn't help your informed argument against the idea.

[manduck37]

Of course some fans care about reviews. It' called speaking in generalities. When the majority act a certain way, you make a generality knowing that there is and are always outliers. Now I only speak in generalities when there are actual stats to back it up, and in this case I used the movie going audience.

Are you equating the ending of Kingdom Come to a fully fledged story about Sm/WW?

So this is not a rehash of the Christopher Kent situation?

Superman 4 of Rebirth has him saving his family with the hope that the Eradicator would follow. His main goal was the safety of his family. Bibbo's comment doesn't change Superman's main concern in the fight...saving his family.

Numbers are always great when there is a reboot, and I'd argue the main reason the numbers are maintaining is because they're dragging New 52 Superman fans along with the outside hope he may return. If that story line was part of this, we'd see numbers drop just like the New 52. Also, I'm pretty sure the reviews were great for Morrison at the beginning of his run too.

I'm not saying you're wrong for liking it. I'm telling you why I dislike it, and I don't think anyone can deny that there is a divide within Superman fans that you don't really see with any other character DC or Marvel. Part of the problem are these drastic changes. You can't tell me this is the same character as New 52 Superman, because I would just reference you to all the post-crisis fans that were complaining about the New 52.

The movie going audience is much larger than the comic reading audience. So to them, these stories are new. Plus I've seen plenty of comic fans wishing that certain stories were put on the big screen. It's probably safe to say that comic fans don't mind when a story they know and love is adapted to film. You also have to take into account that the bulk of movies being made are rehashes, either of books, remakes of older movies, or graphic novels. So having a Superman movie that rehashes old Superman stories is pretty much normal business in the movie business.

The end of Kingdom Come wasn't a full fledged SM/WW story. Here's the thing, neither was the New 52 romance between them. It barely existed, even in the SM/WW book itself. They approached the idea that this would be a new take for fans of the pairing and then didn't do it any justice. As for Christopher Kent, he was never set up to be Superboy or a biological son to Superman. It has some similarities, but it wasn't going in the direction they have planned for Jon. So that's certainly a new take.

The Eradicator was specifically looking for Kryptonians. He was seeking Superman out to help him bring back Krypton and targeted Jon specifically to purge his human half. His main goal was saving his son because his son was the direct target. Eradicator wasn't moving on to eliminate humanity, he was specifically trying to eliminate Jon. So Superman protected him. Superman didn't abandon humanity to save his son. It's all right there in the story, spelled out plain as day.

Yes, reboot numbers are always good. Morrison's run was kind of a mixed bag, as far a reviews go. Some good, some bad, some saying it was ok but not his best work. I thought it was great and really enjoyed it. I'm not saying you're wrong for not liking this new direction. Just that there is a difference between saying you don't care for something and saying it's ruined the character and irrevocably changed him so that he's not a hero. Superman is still exactly like Superman has been in every version, a selfless hero. If you don't like the current story, that's totally cool. Speaking in sweeping generalities to try and paint it like the property of Superman is forever damaged is another thing entirely. For what it's worth, I've never cared for kid heroes either. Never liked Robin, myself. But here's the thing, not every character in a book is meant for me. Different characters reach different people. Kid heroes weren't created for men between the ages of 19-35 with disposable income and so on. They were created for kids, to get them into the stories so that they had a character to identify with. So I'd never begrudge DC putting Robin in a story if it gets kids to read and enjoy Batman. Same goes for Jon and Superman. Though I must admit, I do like Jon (when Tomasi writes him).