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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Default Should there be stronger villains in the DC?

    What I love about DC is that it has good characters and fantastic story lines however one of the things that bothers me is that it's kind of rigid and constricted in terms of powerful characters. Like for example DC has Darkseid as the big bad of all the villains. Now I like Darkseid and the rest of the villains but what has always bothered me is that where Marvel has Galactus, Thanos, and so on DC seems to stick to only having one single powerful threat which is Darkseid.

    Maybe I'm wrong maybe it's simply a matter of exposure but I can't really think of any other villains with the exception of Brainiac(who really doesn't get the attention he deserves) that can be considered a terror of the Universe now Nekron the guy behind Blackest Night I like. I can see him making a come back reviving the Black Lanterns and becoming a sort of Rival for Darkseid and really that would be interesting because Nekron isn't alive so he's probably immune to Darksied's powers.

    Another thing I'd like to see is a villain whose just a threat to everything and is chaos incarnate having no goal or real motivation other than wanting death and destruction for his or her own amusement and only stopping because he or she has suddenly gotten bored or tired. Pretty much a character like Buu from Dragon Ball Z except said character could be like Darkseid's polar opposite like it comes out that while Darkseid is the God of Evil he governs evil order(it's been said in different threads that Superman is like a god of chaos so I think this would be an interesting story line) and this other New God could represent chaotic evil.

  2. #2
    BANNED colonyofcells's Avatar
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    Probably easier to reduce the powers of superman, wonder woman and green lanterns. The movies seem to have reduced the powers of Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman makes more sense as a super soldier level hero similar to Captain America. Kryptonite will not be needed if Superman can be knocked out by gas. Kryptonite could be just powerful radiation that can kill anybody both earthlings and kryptonians alike. Lanterns could be more interesting if they need to ride space ships like Jedi Knights.
    Last edited by colonyofcells; 08-23-2016 at 06:54 PM.

  3. #3
    Never Giving Up! GreenLanternRanger's Avatar
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    There's other powerful threats out there. Doomsday, Parallax, Brainiac, heck even Joker has shown he can be a force to be reckoned with not just against Batman, but the entire DCU. Then there's characters like Time Trapper & Chronos which could be big threats if done right. And as you said Nekron.

    Oh and Dr. Manhattan & The Gentry.
    So yea there's plenty of big threats in the DCU.
    There's a Time For Peace, and Then There's a Time To Punch Nazi Scumbags in the Face!!

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    Not to mention Mordru who needs a whole major team, Legion or JSA to take him on.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    What I love about DC is that it has good characters and fantastic story lines however one of the things that bothers me is that it's kind of rigid and constricted in terms of powerful characters. Like for example DC has Darkseid as the big bad of all the villains. Now I like Darkseid and the rest of the villains but what has always bothered me is that where Marvel has Galactus, Thanos, and so on DC seems to stick to only having one single powerful threat which is Darkseid.

    Maybe I'm wrong maybe it's simply a matter of exposure but I can't really think of any other villains with the exception of Brainiac(who really doesn't get the attention he deserves) that can be considered a terror of the Universe now Nekron the guy behind Blackest Night I like. I can see him making a come back reviving the Black Lanterns and becoming a sort of Rival for Darkseid and really that would be interesting because Nekron isn't alive so he's probably immune to Darksied's powers.
    Yeah, I think this is probably the reason. DC does have several powerful villains: Darkseid and Brainiac like you said, but also Mongul, the Anti-Monitor, Sinestro, Doomsday, Trigon, General Zod, Black Adam, Brother Eye, etc. The main problem though is...DC hardly ever puts them to good use. The last time I remember Black Adam being a huge threat was around "World War III" back in like '06 or '07? Sinestro got major play throughout the whole of Johns's run on Green Lantern, but the pinnacle of his achievement as a villain really came with Sinestro Corps War, again back in '07. Anti-Monitor should be used sparingly...because that guy is TOO big of a threat. Every time he shows up, like planets get realigned and realities are destroyed. And when was the last time Trigon was used as a substantial threat? A guy who has the power to conquer dimensions and DC has him sitting on the shelf.

    DC's villains' schemes tend to be targeted at their "own" hero on a psychological level as opposed to being a widespread thing. And, honestly, that's where a lot of them excel. I don't want the Joker to become a cosmic-level threat. I think he's at his best when he's torturing just the Batman family and can only be at most, a city-wide threat. Same thing with villains like Cheetah and Deathstroke. I don't think those guys could pull of a whole "world domination" type thing. Deathstroke's main achievement as a villain was seducing an underage girl and manipulating her into betraying the Titans from the inside. That's a great accomplishment (for a villain) but, again, its something localized and personal, not a "big" thing.

    This is where a lot of Marvel's event mania is actually a benefit. As much as people here tend to hate on big events, you can't deny that whether good or bad, they do allow Marvel to showcase to their readers just how much of a badass Dr. Doom or Loki or Ultron or Thanos or Magneto or the Red Skull or whoever is. DC has at least a few villains who could anchor an event like that (Luthor, Brainiac, Darkseid, Black Adam, Ra's al Ghul, etc.), but when they do those events, they tend to make the main antagonist someone that very few people know and could hardly describe as a major villain in the DCU (i.e. Nekron in Blackest Night or Superboy Prime in Infinite Crisis). That's not a bad thing, but it does make it hard to build up just one villain's rep.

    IMO, DC needs more villains who can be likened to Dr. Doom or Magneto or Red Skull or Loki. Powerful foes that aren't like "uber-level" but have a solid set of skills that could be used to conquer countries and present a major threat to the hero community. The closest ones I can think of are Lex Luthor and Ra's al Ghul.

    But again, its about exposure. I really think (and have said on multiple occasions) that DC would do well to have more major event comics along the lines of Final Crisis or Sinestro Corps War or Blackest Night where a major villain that a lot of the readers are familiar with takes center stage as the main villain. Have one of Mongul attempting to convert the sun into a new Warworld or of Black Adam attempting to I don't know claim ultimate power or something...
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-24-2016 at 09:49 PM.

  6. #6
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    i don't know about "strong." I'm not intersted in an arms race between heroes and villains, and I've seen enough threats to "the whole universe." But I'd like to stop seeing the same ones all the time.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colonyofcells View Post
    Probably easier to reduce the powers of superman, wonder woman and green lanterns. The movies seem to have reduced the powers of Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman makes more sense as a super soldier level hero similar to Captain America. Kryptonite will not be needed if Superman can be knocked out by gas. Kryptonite could be just powerful radiation that can kill anybody both earthlings and kryptonians alike. Lanterns could be more interesting if they need to ride space ships like Jedi Knights.
    She was able to hold her own against Doomsday, hardly Captain America level. A hero should be exactly as powerful as they need to be to tell the kinds of stories they were meant to tell, no more no less.

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    That's something I don't like about Marvel, they have a multitude of boring one-dimensional big bad threats. DC has plenty of its own too, like Darkseid, Anti-Monitor, Braniac, but they all have their own flavor and there are also threats of a different kind.

    The Anti-Monitor is a threat to reality itself and the independence of the multiverse.

    Braniac is a threat to all live on the quest for superior knowledge.

    Luthor is a threat to the legitimacy of the concept of Superheroes. He often puts civilian lives at risk, but if he had his way, the real defeat would be the world turning on superheroes to make way for (his own) human leadership. It's not an apocalyptic goal but it's no less tragic.

    Reverse Flash is a threat to the timeline, and both he and Zoom are especially threatening towards loved ones.

    Sinestro is a threat to free will. As is Vandal Savage and Darkseid.

    R'as Al Ghul is a threat to those living in any society suffering from corruption, injustice, and environmental destruction. So, not just a threat to most people in most places, but to the idea itself that society can stumble while it progresses, or that the good people in a crummy setup are worth saving.

    The Joker is a threat to sanity and reason.

    Black Manta is a threat to the idea of peaceful co-existence between races, and to the harmony of underwater civilization.

    I like the diversity in villainy.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogotazo View Post
    That's something I don't like about Marvel, they have a multitude of boring one-dimensional big bad threats. DC has plenty of its own too, like Darkseid, Anti-Monitor, Braniac, but they all have their own flavor and there are also threats of a different kind.....

    I like the diversity in villainy.
    I doubt anyone could look at the likes of Loki, Red Skull, Zemo, Kingpin, Norman Osborn, Mystique, Kang, Ultron, Apocalypse, Magneto, or Dr. Doom and say that those villains are "one dimensional big bads." And if they did, well, its almost without a doubt that they'd be wrong.

    Just like DC villains, they all present a different kind of villainy––whether its Magneto's Malcolm X-type brand of equality or Doom's deep-seated jealousy of Reed Richard's life. DC's villains are great. So are Marvel's. Marvel's can easily transition from being threats to just "their" respective heroes into being threats to the whole of the Marvel Universe. Doom, for example, is just as much at home terrorizing the Fantastic Four alone as he is conquering the universe and assuming godhood. The same can be done with DC villains like Darkseid and Lex, but the difference is that DC never really uses them in that big of a way and when they do, they don't publicize it. Marvel makes a bigger deal of their villains' feats and DC never really says "hey look, Lex just conquered the universe and assumed godhood" let alone make an entire event out of it.

    Plus, as I said in my earlier post, a lot of DC's major villains just aren't built for the "world-conquering" feats. Joker is probably THE most iconic and greatest villain in all of comics. However, it's at least somewhat out of character for him to get his hands on an Infinity Gauntlet and conquer the universe. The one time Joker did attain that kind of power, it wasn't even in a Batman comic. Also, I didn't think it made sense for them to do it during the Emperor Joker story and still don't like it now.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-24-2016 at 09:45 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    What I love about DC is that it has good characters and fantastic story lines however one of the things that bothers me is that it's kind of rigid and constricted in terms of powerful characters. Like for example DC has Darkseid as the big bad of all the villains. Now I like Darkseid and the rest of the villains but what has always bothered me is that where Marvel has Galactus, Thanos, and so on DC seems to stick to only having one single powerful threat which is Darkseid.

    Maybe I'm wrong maybe it's simply a matter of exposure but I can't really think of any other villains with the exception of Brainiac(who really doesn't get the attention he deserves) that can be considered a terror of the Universe now Nekron the guy behind Blackest Night I like. I can see him making a come back reviving the Black Lanterns and becoming a sort of Rival for Darkseid and really that would be interesting because Nekron isn't alive so he's probably immune to Darksied's powers.

    Another thing I'd like to see is a villain whose just a threat to everything and is chaos incarnate having no goal or real motivation other than wanting death and destruction for his or her own amusement and only stopping because he or she has suddenly gotten bored or tired. Pretty much a character like Buu from Dragon Ball Z except said character could be like Darkseid's polar opposite like it comes out that while Darkseid is the God of Evil he governs evil order(it's been said in different threads that Superman is like a god of chaos so I think this would be an interesting story line) and this other New God could represent chaotic evil.
    Darkseid is awesome and has a cool look and history (best use of which IMO was in GENESIS). But there are a couple villains I find more intimidating/bad ass than him. Circe actually topped the achievements of both Darkseid and Ares from GENESIS and she did it years ago in War of the Gods. I also find the Superman villain DOMINUS terrifying. And lets not forget the terror that is TRIGON. Neron is also impressive.

    But the more well known villains (read: Batman villains) are not at that level at all. Even Superman's most well known villain is only mortal.

  11. #11
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    there are other villains that are insanely powerful if and when used right. starbreaker the cosmic vampire; the white martians; appa ali apsa, the rouge guardian; elipso; even mr. mxyzptlk

  12. #12
    Incredible Member The Odd Man's Avatar
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    I'd like to lesser know villains get more exposure. Pre-Flashpoint, Dr. Psycho was a force to be reckoned with. Dr. Cyber could be the villainous version of Cyborg (because really, Grid sucks). And what about Wildstorm villains? Kaizen Gamorra has appeared in the New 52, but he's barely recognizable as the threat he once was. And TAO, despite a couple minor appearances in Grayson, should be making the DC heroes tremble.

  13. #13
    Amazing Member Darkstars's Avatar
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    Still have Ares, Cyborg Superman, Zod and Yuga Khan too.

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I doubt anyone could look at the likes of Loki, Red Skull, Zemo, Kingpin, Norman Osborn, Mystique, Kang, Ultron, Apocalypse, Magneto, or Dr. Doom and say that those villains are "one dimensional big bads." And if they did, well, its almost without a doubt that they'd be wrong.

    Just like DC villains, they all present a different kind of villainy––whether its Magneto's Malcolm X-type brand of equality or Doom's deep-seated jealousy of Reed Richard's life. DC's villains are great. So are Marvel's. Marvel's can easily transition from being threats to just "their" respective heroes into being threats to the whole of the Marvel Universe. Doom, for example, is just as much at home terrorizing the Fantastic Four alone as he is conquering the universe and assuming godhood. The same can be done with DC villains like Darkseid and Lex, but the difference is that DC never really uses them in that big of a way and when they do, they don't publicize it. Marvel makes a bigger deal of their villains' feats and DC never really says "hey look, Lex just conquered the universe and assumed godhood" let alone make an entire event out of it.

    Plus, as I said in my earlier post, a lot of DC's major villains just aren't built for the "world-conquering" feats. Joker is probably THE most iconic and greatest villain in all of comics. However, it's at least somewhat out of character for him to get his hands on an Infinity Gauntlet and conquer the universe. The one time Joker did attain that kind of power, it wasn't even in a Batman comic. Also, I didn't think it made sense for them to do it during the Emperor Joker story and still don't like it now.
    I didn't mean to imply that Marvel doesn't have other compelling villains, but the fact you keep referring to an elevated scale that basically reduces their goals to roughly similar ones is what I'm talking about. That last bit about the Joker is exactly why I appreciate a villain like him; it's not about conquering the world (or shouldn't be). Same thing with Lex; he's power-hungry, but he's not typically going to rise to some god-level and become a bald white Darkseid. Neither are the Flash's Rogues, who pride themselves on having a code and never getting too ambitious for their own good; neither will Black Manta, who is a revenge-focused black separatist. Over-the-top shows of power are all too common in comic book events and are essentially futile as the status quo has to be restored at the end of it. My favorite stories are usually not about a threat so big that defeating them seems impossible; I prefer stories that challenge the heroes' idealism, their relationship with the public, that dig into their personal flaws, and that is more easily achieved with motives and desired outcomes that deviate from the apocalyptic, either slightly or greatly.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogotazo View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that Marvel doesn't have other compelling villains, but the fact you keep referring to an elevated scale that basically reduces their goals to roughly similar ones is what I'm talking about. That last bit about the Joker is exactly why I appreciate a villain like him; it's not about conquering the world (or shouldn't be). Same thing with Lex; he's power-hungry, but he's not typically going to rise to some god-level and become a bald white Darkseid. Neither are the Flash's Rogues, who pride themselves on having a code and never getting too ambitious for their own good; neither will Black Manta, who is a revenge-focused black separatist. Over-the-top shows of power are all too common in comic book events and are essentially futile as the status quo has to be restored at the end of it. My favorite stories are usually not about a threat so big that defeating them seems impossible; I prefer stories that challenge the heroes' idealism, their relationship with the public, that dig into their personal flaws, and that is more easily achieved with motives and desired outcomes that deviate from the apocalyptic, either slightly or greatly.
    I think that's a little bit of a broad overgeneralization, though. I've even said that I wouldn't want villains like Joker to suddenly become cosmic threats, but it would be nice if DC used some of their villains in a way that made them into a threat for the whole of the hero community. Of course its nice to have the villain challenge characters on a personal level, but there is no reason for them to be limited to just that. Marvel's villains do both. They have no problem transitioning from stories where they are challenging the heroes idealism and their personal flaws to stories where they conquer the world. Doctor Doom, in assuming godhood, stole Reed Richard's family and has been a competing father figure for Valeria for years. Red Skull has amassed armies and incredible power, but at the same time has challenged Captain America to his core and recently just engineered turning him into a Hydra agent.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-25-2016 at 09:12 AM.

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