Should there be stronger villains in the DC?

[Lightning Rider]

I think that's a little bit of a broad overgeneralization, though. I've even said that I wouldn't want villains like Joker to suddenly become cosmic threats, but it would be nice if DC used some of their villains in a way that made them into a threat for the whole of the hero community. Of course its nice to have the villain challenge characters on a personal level, but there is no reason for them to be limited to just that. Marvel's villains do both. They have no problem transitioning from stories where they are challenging the heroes idealism and their personal flaws to stories where they conquer the world. Doctor Doom, in assuming godhood, stole Reed Richard's family and has been a competing father figure for Valeria for years. Red Skull has amassed armies and incredible power, but at the same time has challenged Captain America to his core and recently just engineered turning him into a Hydra agent.

I see DC villains becoming League-wide threats all the time. Sinestro in Sinestro Corps War, Superboy Prime in SCW and Infinite Crisis, Black Adam multiple times, Lex countless times, Ares, Darkseid, Braniac, etc.

But big world-threatening stories get boring. They swallow everything up and leave tight room for meaningful characterization. More exposure for sidelined villains would be cool, but I don't need a rotating cast of god-conquerers to emerge to feel satisfied with DC's villains.

Identity Crisis saw the death of the spouse of one B-level League member and all hell broke loose. That's much more intriguing to me.

[Nite-Wing]

DC is an old universe
They haven't really invested in their cosmology or hierarchy at all like Marvel has. In many ways its because a lot of their really good villains are not their most powerful ones which is basically the opposite of marvel.

Galactus and the other cosmic characters basically came up with the Fantastic Four whereas the New gods or mystical entities only appeared a few times and have consistently been rebooted which DC does a lot

imo I think its better this way

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I see DC villains becoming League-wide threats all the time. Sinestro in Sinestro Corps War, Superboy Prime in SCW and Infinite Crisis

Sinestro Corps War was 9 years ago. Infinite Crisis was even longer ago. And what were those? I'm pretty sure they were "conquer-the-world" and "make-the-heroes-unite-against-one-threat" stories. So, yeah...DC's villains can absolutely shine when you use them the way Marvel uses their villains.

Black Adam multiple times, Lex countless times, Ares, Darkseid, Braniac, etc.

Name the last time that a lot of these villains presented a huge threat. Darkseid War was more about Darkseid's absence than his presence. Darkseid's last great presence as a villain was Final Crisis....8 years ago.

Black Adam's last time being a huge threat was WWIII (I think. Can't really remember). Again, long time ago.

Lex is another more behind the scenes guy, whose villainy isn't apparent on its face. And also, he assumes godhood and then...gives it up to just brawl with Superman? It was cool that he became ruler of Apokolips during Darkseid War, but now he's more so trying to emulate Superman than fight him, which is kind of OOC for him.

I can't even remember the last time Ares was even relevant as a villain.

But big world-threatening stories get boring. They swallow everything up and leave tight room for meaningful characterization. More exposure for sidelined villains would be cool, but I don't need a rotating cast of god-conquerers to emerge to feel satisfied with DC's villains.

Identity Crisis saw the death of the spouse of one B-level League member and all hell broke loose. That's much more intriguing to me.

Again, I'd say that's an overgeneralization. Secret Wars was by far one of the best events I've ever read, full of rich character moments, and for me was better than anything DC had to offer at the time. That's because Jon Hickman was writing it. Rock of Ages, another conquer the world story, was probably one of the best parts of Morrison's JLA run.

It just goes to show, any story depends on the writers. All DC or any company needs to make those types of stories work is good writers.

And yes, Identity Crisis was great. But I'm not going to hold that story up and say DC should only do stories like that. It was something Meltzer wanted to do and it worked. But so can stories like Sinestro Corps War and Secret Wars and House of M.

[Lightning Rider]

Sinestro Corps War was 9 years ago. Infinite Crisis was even longer ago. And what were those? I'm pretty sure they were "conquer-the-world" and "make-the-heroes-unite-against-one-threat" stories. So, yeah...DC's villains can absolutely shine when you use them the way Marvel uses their villains.

I don't know if I'd say Sinestro "shone" in that even though he clearly came off as dangerous. He had some good lines that reinforced his persona and goals, but I don't know that I learned anything more about him, or that he showed a different side to himself, or that he affected in any way the already existing relationships he had with the opposing heroes.

In the grand scheme of things 9 years ago wasn't that long ago. I didn't know you were talking with so much reference to the very recent past and present.

Name the last time that a lot of these villains presented a huge threat. Darkseid War was more about Darkseid's absence than his presence. Darkseid's last great presence as a villain was Final Crisis....8 years ago.

Black Adam's last time being a huge threat was WWIII (I think. Can't really remember). Again, long time ago.

How frequently do villains have to threaten to take over the world in apocalyptic fashion for you? Yearly? It gets exhausting. And if you want more villains doing it, that means taking turns, which means each turn taking longer.

Forever Evil was 2013-2014, with Lex/Sinestro/Adam, Darkseid War just happened. I haven't read either (yet) but I believe they qualify.

Lex is another more behind the scenes guy, whose villainy isn't apparent on its face. And also, he assumes godhood and then...gives it up to just brawl with Superman? It was cool that he became ruler of Apokolips during Darkseid War, but now he's more so trying to emulate Superman than fight him, which is kind of OOC for him.

I totally disagree it's out of character; Lex resents the idea of an Alien being humanity's savior instead of intelligent humans like himself. Wearing the "S" may be a bit much considering how much he hates him, but trying to supplant him seems totally in line with his character. I dropped the story and I've heard it's still just a long fight with Doomsday, which I'm not too interested in, but the concept is great and I much prefer it to Lex assuming "godhood". Why wouldn't that story be like every other "megapowerful" story? This might just come down to taste. I don't like constant DBZ-esque ascensions to ultimate power, only for another one to come around and play out in almost the exact same circumstances a short while later.

It just goes to show, any story depends on the writers. All DC or any company needs to make those types of stories work is good writers.

I don't disagree, and that's kind of my point. There's no inherent need for an increase in conquer-the-world stories.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't know if I'd say Sinestro "shone" in that even though he clearly came off as dangerous. He had some good lines that reinforced his persona and goals, but I don't know that I learned anything more about him, or that he showed a different side to himself, or that he affected in any way the already existing relationships he had with the opposing heroes.

Its been forever since I read SCW, so I might be hazy on the details. However, part of what makes a villain great as a villain is their achievements. Joker is not just a great villain because of his complexity as a character, but also because he killed Jason Todd and paralyzed Barbara Gordon. Doomsday is remembered because, well, he killed Superman. There's not much else to his character besides his raw power, which was enough to kill the Man of Steel. And what made Sinestro Corps War a great story for Sinestro is how far he was able to push the heroes and what he was able to pull off.

Also, Sinestro is kind of a bad example because he's actually doing some big stuff now in the GL books, but a lot of villains like Mongul and Despero and the like are just sitting around doing nothing.

In the grand scheme of things 9 years ago wasn't that long ago. I didn't know you were talking with so much reference to the very recent past and present.

How frequently do villains have to threaten to take over the world in apocalyptic fashion for you? Yearly? It gets exhausting. And if you want more villains doing it, that means taking turns, which means each turn taking longer.

Not saying they have to do it on a regular basis. But perhaps maybe less than a decade or so would be nice.

Forever Evil was 2013-2014, with Lex/Sinestro/Adam, Darkseid War just happened. I haven't read either (yet) but I believe they qualify.

Again, Darkseid War was not even really about Darkseid doing anything. Darkseid wasn't even present for the majority of that arc. I'll give you Forever Evil, but the main thing coming out of that arc was Lex Luthor's shift to "heroism."

I totally disagree it's out of character; Lex resents the idea of an Alien being humanity's savior instead of intelligent humans like himself. Wearing the "S" may be a bit much considering how much he hates him, but trying to supplant him seems totally in line with his character. I dropped the story and I've heard it's still just a long fight with Doomsday, which I'm not too interested in, but the concept is great and I much prefer it to Lex assuming "godhood". Why wouldn't that story be like every other "megapowerful" story? This might just come down to taste. I don't like constant DBZ-esque ascensions to ultimate power, only for another one to come around and play out in almost the exact same circumstances a short while later.

Yeah. Lex hates Superman. His whole thing is that he wants humanity to see that they don't need a savior from another planet. And yes, a little bit of that is out of a desire to supplant him, but he wants to replace him as Lex not as "another" Superman.

I don't disagree, and that's kind of my point. There's no inherent need for an increase in conquer-the-world stories.

It's not about just one type of story. Its about having the villains actually DO something of note that pulls in the whole DCU. It doesn't have to be "Lex takes over the world," but there should be a story where some villain does something that spurs the heroes into action, whether that's assuming godhood, rewriting reality, instigating war, or just killing some superhero's wife.

[theoneandonly]

Sinestro Corps War was 9 years ago. Infinite Crisis was even longer ago. And what were those? I'm pretty sure they were "conquer-the-world" and "make-the-heroes-unite-against-one-threat" stories. So, yeah...DC's villains can absolutely shine when you use them the way Marvel uses their villains.



Name the last time that a lot of these villains presented a huge threat. Darkseid War was more about Darkseid's absence than his presence. Darkseid's last great presence as a villain was Final Crisis....8 years ago.

Black Adam's last time being a huge threat was WWIII (I think. Can't really remember). Again, long time ago.

Lex is another more behind the scenes guy, whose villainy isn't apparent on its face. And also, he assumes godhood and then...gives it up to just brawl with Superman? It was cool that he became ruler of Apokolips during Darkseid War, but now he's more so trying to emulate Superman than fight him, which is kind of OOC for him.

I can't even remember the last time Ares was even relevant as a villain.



Again, I'd say that's an overgeneralization. Secret Wars was by far one of the best events I've ever read, full of rich character moments, and for me was better than anything DC had to offer at the time. That's because Jon Hickman was writing it. Rock of Ages, another conquer the world story, was probably one of the best parts of Morrison's JLA run.

It just goes to show, any story depends on the writers. All DC or any company needs to make those types of stories work is good writers.

And yes, Identity Crisis was great. But I'm not going to hold that story up and say DC should only do stories like that. It was something Meltzer wanted to do and it worked. But so can stories like Sinestro Corps War and Secret Wars and House of M.

I don't understand how rock of ages is so revered as a great story as I absolutely felt the whole motivation of luthor attempt to make a corporate takeover ridiculous and then batman counter by buying his way out was also ridiculous Darkseid felt like he was jobbing and at a loose end to what to do next The time traveling heroes journey didn't make sense the role of Aztec was underwhelming and in fact that whole arc was underwhelming and it felt like all of them were going through the motions as seen when joker obligatorily got the stone and it all depends on what choice was made to compensate for his complete humiliation at hands of plastic man and luthor going Scott free after all the destruction he caused just because he undoes it

[Zero Hunter]

I hope DC never goes the Marvel route. Marvel has had this really bad thing over the last 20 years of "bigger, BIGGER, BIGGER" cosmic threats. I mean they just keeping going from city wide threat to world wide threat to galaxy wide threat to now multiversal wide threats. It has just gotten stupid. Even classic characters that used to be scary as hell have all been neutered because they just kept getting jobbed and one upped by the latest and greatest threat. I mean seriously when was the last time Thanos or even Galactus were even a problem.

[Sutekh]

I wouldn't mind more variety with villains. Superman gets a lot of Kryptonian types. Batman gets a lot of crazy people with no powers. Flash gets either 'guy with gimmick/gadget' or 'evil speedster.' Green Lantern gets people with energy constructs, with wielders of other colored rings a common theme. Finding some powersets that make for a good challenge for a character (magical type vs. superman, low-powered metahuman vs. Batman, etc.) could add some variety, with villains of other heroes showing up to threaten a different hero (several of the Flash's gadget-using Rogue's Gallery would be interesting matches against Batman, for instance), or the occasional new character.

But just making them more powerful doesn't really guarantee that they are going to be 'better' characters. Batman's got exactly zero super-powers, and he's a fine character. (Ditto Lex and the Joker and Captain Cold, for villains.) Wotan was insanely powerful, back in the golden age, able to throw planets at the Specter. Where is he now?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I hope DC never goes the Marvel route. Marvel has had this really bad thing over the last 20 years of "bigger, BIGGER, BIGGER" cosmic threats. I mean they just keeping going from city wide threat to world wide threat to galaxy wide threat to now multiversal wide threats. It has just gotten stupid. Even classic characters that used to be scary as hell have all been neutered because they just kept getting jobbed and one upped by the latest and greatest threat. I mean seriously when was the last time Thanos or even Galactus were even a problem.

Uhhhh.....



But even so, I fail to see how the solution to "villains keep getting defeated in their attempts to take over the world" is "the villains shouldn't even try to do so." Of course they keep losing, they're the villains of the story. The whole point of comics is that the good guys win eventually. What makes a villain great is how close they can get to achieving their goals before the heroes eventually do overcome them.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't understand how rock of ages is so revered as a great story as I absolutely felt the whole motivation of luthor attempt to make a corporate takeover ridiculous and then batman counter by buying his way out was also ridiculous Darkseid felt like he was jobbing and at a loose end to what to do next The time traveling heroes journey didn't make sense the role of Aztec was underwhelming and in fact that whole arc was underwhelming and it felt like all of them were going through the motions as seen when joker obligatorily got the stone and it all depends on what choice was made to compensate for his complete humiliation at hands of plastic man and luthor going Scott free after all the destruction he caused just because he undoes it

Personal opinions aside, Rock of Ages is still remembered by most of the fanbase as a good story and one of the better showcasing of Darkseid and his abilities. DC needs to do more stories like that. They need to make their villains actually feel like huge, universe wide threats.

[Lightning Rider]

Its been forever since I read SCW, so I might be hazy on the details. However, part of what makes a villain great as a villain is their achievements. Joker is not just a great villain because of his complexity as a character, but also because he killed Jason Todd and paralyzed Barbara Gordon. Doomsday is remembered because, well, he killed Superman. There's not much else to his character besides his raw power, which was enough to kill the Man of Steel. And what made Sinestro Corps War a great story for Sinestro is how far he was able to push the heroes and what he was able to pull off.

Also, Sinestro is kind of a bad example because he's actually doing some big stuff now in the GL books, but a lot of villains like Mongul and Despero and the like are just sitting around doing nothing.

Sure, achievements are important, but I see more drama in something like paralyzing Barbara Gordon than a generic cosmic threat plot. Overemphasizing "feats" and the scale of threat encourages, as it was put before, an "arms race" between heroes and villains.

Not saying they have to do it on a regular basis. But perhaps maybe less than a decade or so would be nice.

Reasonable, but I feel that's what we've got.

Again, Darkseid War was not even really about Darkseid doing anything. Darkseid wasn't even present for the majority of that arc. I'll give you Forever Evil, but the main thing coming out of that arc was Lex Luthor's shift to "heroism."

At least it involved the New Gods, who you could say were due for a meaningful appearance.

Yeah. Lex hates Superman. His whole thing is that he wants humanity to see that they don't need a savior from another planet. And yes, a little bit of that is out of a desire to supplant him, but he wants to replace him as Lex not as "another" Superman.

I'd say we've seen enough of him trying to get important weapons or powers, namely Superman's in All-Star, that it's not a stretch for him to try and make Superman redundant.

It's not about just one type of story. Its about having the villains actually DO something of note that pulls in the whole DCU. It doesn't have to be "Lex takes over the world," but there should be a story where some villain does something that spurs the heroes into action, whether that's assuming godhood, rewriting reality, instigating war, or just killing some superhero's wife.

I agree, I'm just fine with the frequency at which it already happens. Too often and it loses its meaning. I don't think a story's quality depends on the scale or having the WHOLE DCU get sucked in. I just think it's overrated. The DCU is very big and much gets lost in these big stories. Not to mention the tiring reality-threatening trope being abused to death. I'm tired of being told that the rules are suddenly different. I was so done with it by the time Flash Rebirth and Blackest Night were out. I want to enjoy the world, not constantly shift my understanding of it. That said I like most of the big stories. I just got tired believing in the threats when they happened so close to one another.

I hope DC never goes the Marvel route. Marvel has had this really bad thing over the last 20 years of "bigger, BIGGER, BIGGER" cosmic threats. I mean they just keeping going from city wide threat to world wide threat to galaxy wide threat to now multiversal wide threats. It has just gotten stupid. Even classic characters that used to be scary as hell have all been neutered because they just kept getting jobbed and one upped by the latest and greatest threat. I mean seriously when was the last time Thanos or even Galactus were even a problem.

This is exactly what I would not want to happen. A diversity of types of threats spread out instead of a constant growth in scale of each threat is much preferable to me.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Sure, achievements are important, but I see more drama in something like paralyzing Barbara Gordon than a generic cosmic threat plot. Overemphasizing "feats" and the scale of threat encourages, as it was put before, an "arms race" between heroes and villains.

And what I'm saying is that there is room for both. Villains like Joker? Yeah, their best feats are the ones that are personal in nature. But for villains like Darkseid and Dr. Doom, they're at their best when they're manipulating events to put massive schemes in motion and emerging as big threats.

I agree, I'm just fine with the frequency at which it already happens. Too often and it loses its meaning. I don't think a story's quality depends on the scale or having the WHOLE DCU get sucked in. I just think it's overrated. The DCU is very big and much gets lost in these big stories. Not to mention the tiring reality-threatening trope being abused to death. I'm tired of being told that the rules are suddenly different. I was so done with it by the time Flash Rebirth and Blackest Night were out. I want to enjoy the world, not constantly shift my understanding of it. That said I like most of the big stories. I just got tired believing in the threats when they happened so close to one another.

I just think DC should do it more. Say what you will about Marvel's events (they really are too numerous), but they make the Marvel Universe feel interconnected and cohesive, and establish a rapport between seemingly opposite corners of the MU. Civil War (the first one) is kind of the perfect example. As much as people seem to hate on that event, it was all about interpersonal interactions within the hero community. Things actually did change after that and the impact was felt in almost all corners of the MU. It would be nice for something to bring that same feeling of interconnectedness to the DCU (which, did in fact exist before Flashpoint, but is kind of missing in its current state). Whether that comes in the form of a massive threat or simply from personal interactions in the DC Universe. Events like Infinite Crisis, Identity Crisis, and Blackest Night, IMO did a really good job of showcasing the connectedness of the DC Universe. But now...its kind of missing.

So, I guess the moral is this: villains being big threats is just as much about the interactions and relationships the heroes form among themselves in dealing with those threats as it is about them being great villains.

[Zero Hunter]

Uhhhh.....


.

That is not really helping your point. That story was garbage with the old "long lost son" bullshit angle.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That is not really helping your point. That story was garbage with the old "long lost son" bullshit angle.

Really? I think it does. Especially because that story received mass critical acclaim, with pretty much every review site, including this one, IGN, Comic Vine, etc., calling it a "tremendous read."

[Ascended]

In regards to Lex, while I'm not reading the story I find nothing really "wrong" with him wearing the "S."

At this point, Lex has done everything he can to defeat Superman and twist his message. Lex failed every time, and in death even Superman's missteps like Doomed and Truth have been largely forgotten (both by DCU residents and many fans, if Final Days of Superman is anything to go by). Lex might believe that usurping the shield is the only way to defeat Superman (and his memory) once and for all; by taking that hated emblem as his own and making the world remember it as Lex's and not some alien "savior's."

But in general I disagree with the OP. DC has, I think, much better villains than most of Marvel's. There are exceptions of course, and Marvel has a handful of truly awesome bad guys. But for the most part I think DC has done a better job developing their's. Sure, Black Manta might never be a world-ending threat, but he's sure as hell done plenty to ruin Aquaman's life, from killing his infant son to cutting off his hand in Brightest Day to orchestrating a war between the surface and Atlantis in the current series (or something, I'm trade waiting these days). He's sown dissent and fear across multiple societies. He might not be at the head of some huge line-wide Event but he's certainly proven himself a worthy villain. And we're talking about Black friggin Manta here; DC has much better bad guys than him.

They could benefit from some added panel time, but the last few years has been about rebuilding the DCU, and that starts with the heroes.