Should there be stronger villains in the DC?

[Lightning Rider]

And what I'm saying is that there is room for both. Villains like Joker? Yeah, their best feats are the ones that are personal in nature. But for villains like Darkseid and Dr. Doom, they're at their best when they're manipulating events to put massive schemes in motion and emerging as big threats.

Agreed. I suppose we just have a minor disagreement in how often.

I just think DC should do it more. Say what you will about Marvel's events (they really are too numerous), but they make the Marvel Universe feel interconnected and cohesive, and establish a rapport between seemingly opposite corners of the MU. Civil War (the first one) is kind of the perfect example. As much as people seem to hate on that event, it was all about interpersonal interactions within the hero community. Things actually did change after that and the impact was felt in almost all corners of the MU. It would be nice for something to bring that same feeling of interconnectedness to the DCU (which, did in fact exist before Flashpoint, but is kind of missing in its current state). Whether that comes in the form of a massive threat or simply from personal interactions in the DC Universe. Events like Infinite Crisis, Identity Crisis, and Blackest Night, IMO did a really good job of showcasing the connectedness of the DC Universe. But now...its kind of missing.

So, I guess the moral is this: villains being big threats is just as much about the interactions and relationships the heroes form among themselves in dealing with those threats as it is about them being great villains.

I agree, and Civil War is a great example of when it works. I think in large part because there was no central single-minded villain sucking up all the attention. Maybe I just prefer wordier comics, but the conversations and memorable dialogue is what I liked most out of it. The philosophical disagreements and straining relationships. I totally get what you mean now with the interconnectedness, I love that too, I guess I'm just more skeptical of the execution and whether strong villains are necessary for that to take place. I remember thinking, for example, that Blackest Night was going to be much better than it ended up being because of that first issue. Ralph's possessed body was tormenting the Hawks with his memories, taunting them in such a personal way, and invoking their tragic prophecy. I couldn't wait for more characters to come back from the dead and wreak havoc on the consciences of the living heroes by filling them with guilt. But no, what we got was a power ranger like endowment of different color rings left and right and a speech by the guardians about Earth being the center of the universe and the cradle of life and blah blah blah. Still enjoyable, but an example of why I think big events should be done sparingly, to better ensure that they're done well.

I guess because I stopped reading shortly after the New 52 and just started with Rebirth, I find the solo adventures getting back to the core of the characters more refreshing. I'll go back and read the recent era of big threats soon enough.

[Lightning Rider]

In regards to Lex, while I'm not reading the story I find nothing really "wrong" with him wearing the "S."

At this point, Lex has done everything he can to defeat Superman and twist his message. Lex failed every time, and in death even Superman's missteps like Doomed and Truth have been largely forgotten (both by DCU residents and many fans, if Final Days of Superman is anything to go by). Lex might believe that usurping the shield is the only way to defeat Superman (and his memory) once and for all; by taking that hated emblem as his own and making the world remember it as Lex's and not some alien "savior's."

But in general I disagree with the OP. DC has, I think, much better villains than most of Marvel's. There are exceptions of course, and Marvel has a handful of truly awesome bad guys. But for the most part I think DC has done a better job developing their's. Sure, Black Manta might never be a world-ending threat, but he's sure as hell done plenty to ruin Aquaman's life, from killing his infant son to cutting off his hand in Brightest Day to orchestrating a war between the surface and Atlantis in the current series (or something, I'm trade waiting these days). He's sown dissent and fear across multiple societies. He might not be at the head of some huge line-wide Event but he's certainly proven himself a worthy villain. And we're talking about Black friggin Manta here; DC has much better bad guys than him.

They could benefit from some added panel time, but the last few years has been about rebuilding the DCU, and that starts with the heroes.

Good post, and I agree.

[golgi]

What kind of thread is this? Stronger, powerful villains is what DC does.

Starro
Mordru
Johnny Sorrow
Despero
Fernus
Mongul
Mongul Jr.
Solomon Grundy
Darkseid
Onimar Synn
Helspont
Brainiac
Imperiex
Trigon
Nekron
Anton Arcane (In his prime)
Yuga Khan
Gog
Time Trapper
etc...

The list goes on and on...

[golgi]

DC is an old universe
They haven't really invested in their cosmology or hierarchy at all like Marvel has. In many ways its because a lot of their really good villains are not their most powerful ones which is basically the opposite of marvel.

Galactus and the other cosmic characters basically came up with the Fantastic Four whereas the New gods or mystical entities only appeared a few times and have consistently been rebooted which DC does a lot

imo I think its better this way

DC may not have organized their cosmic hierarchy like Marvel has, but DC has a crap load more of abstract/gods/cosmics than Marvel.

[golgi]

I hope DC never goes the Marvel route. Marvel has had this really bad thing over the last 20 years of "bigger, BIGGER, BIGGER" cosmic threats. I mean they just keeping going from city wide threat to world wide threat to galaxy wide threat to now multiversal wide threats. It has just gotten stupid. Even classic characters that used to be scary as hell have all been neutered because they just kept getting jobbed and one upped by the latest and greatest threat. I mean seriously when was the last time Thanos or even Galactus were even a problem.

What are you talking about? DC has more top tier books that feature these "bigger, badder threats". DC also showcases more books that have cosmic level characters as leads. Swamp Thing, Lucifer, Sandman, Death, etc...

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I agree, and Civil War is a great example of when it works. I think in large part because there was no central single-minded villain sucking up all the attention. Maybe I just prefer wordier comics, but the conversations and memorable dialogue is what I liked most out of it. The philosophical disagreements and straining relationships. I totally get what you mean now with the interconnectedness, I love that too, I guess I'm just more skeptical of the execution and whether strong villains are necessary for that to take place. I remember thinking, for example, that Blackest Night was going to be much better than it ended up being because of that first issue. Ralph's possessed body was tormenting the Hawks with his memories, taunting them in such a personal way, and invoking their tragic prophecy. I couldn't wait for more characters to come back from the dead and wreak havoc on the consciences of the living heroes by filling them with guilt. But no, what we got was a power ranger like endowment of different color rings left and right and a speech by the guardians about Earth being the center of the universe and the cradle of life and blah blah blah. Still enjoyable, but an example of why I think big events should be done sparingly, to better ensure that they're done well.

I guess because I stopped reading shortly after the New 52 and just started with Rebirth, I find the solo adventures getting back to the core of the characters more refreshing. I'll go back and read the recent era of big threats soon enough.

Yeah, I agree for the most part. But, IMO, it is better when the heroes are fighting alongside each other than against one another. And to accomplish that, you need a threat from a villain to serve as the catalyst for that interaction.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

What kind of thread is this? Stronger, powerful villains is what DC does.

Starro
Mordru
Johnny Sorrow
Despero
Fernus
Mongul
Mongul Jr.
Solomon Grundy
Darkseid
Onimar Synn
Helspont
Brainiac
Imperiex
Trigon
Nekron
Anton Arcane (In his prime)
Yuga Khan
Gog
Time Trapper
etc...

The list goes on and on...

Yeah. But DC hardly ever uses those villains and really doesn't make a big deal out of their accomplishments. Marvel pretty much does everything but hire a skywriter to publicize everything that Doom or Thanos or Magneto or any of their high profile villains does. And because of that, fans are easily able to say what notches each of the respective villains has in their belt. DC only ever really does that with Joker and to a limited extent Lex and maybe Darkseid. When was the last time DC made a big deal out of Starro or Despero or Mongul....

[golgi]

Yeah. But DC hardly ever uses those villains and really doesn't make a big deal out of their accomplishments. Marvel pretty much does everything but hire a skywriter to publicize everything that Doom or Thanos or Magneto or any of their high profile villains does. And because of that, fans are easily able to say what notches each of the respective villains has in their belt. DC only ever really does that with Joker and to a limited extent Lex and maybe Darkseid. When was the last time DC made a big deal out of Starro or Despero or Mongul....

Mongul has his own planet, for crying out loud. Black Adam has his own nation. Brainiac just brought back all the universes in the Multiverse and bottled them up. Sinestro has his own corps and the UNIVERSE on his side. Time Trapper created his own pocket universe, etc... Most of them have their own accomplishments. But, my point is that DC has far more powerful villains, if this is what the thread is about.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Mongul has his own planet, for crying out loud.

Where have you been? LOL. Sinestro seized Warworld from Mongul to serve as a headquarters for his Corps a while ago, which is an impressive feat for Sinestro, but I'll get to that in a minute.

Also, that's not really an "accomplishment." Mongul has always had Warworld the same way Darkseid has always had Apokolips and Doom has alway had Latveria. But honestly, when was the last time he used Warworld to be a threat to the DCU?

Black Adam has his own nation.

Yeah. And when was the last time he exploited that to cause trouble? Doom has constantly used his position as a monarch to stick it to the heroes of the Marvel U. The last time I remember Black Adam doing anything of that sort was when they negotiated the Freedom of Power Treaty in 52...about 10 years ago. Why doesn't DC do more stuff with him like that?

Brainiac just brought back all the universes in the Multiverse and bottled them up.

And Convergence was a poorly managed event that people are still confused by.

Sinestro has his own corps and the UNIVERSE on his side.

Sinestro is actually doing some big stuff right now. But the fact that you seemingly didn't know that he had seized Warworld (?) kind of proves my point. The only people who would know it or have any clue about the stuff Sinestro is doing or that he's even currently a big threat (and why) would be those people who follow Green Lantern books and before that followed Sinestro's solo series. DC didn't say to its readers "Hey DC readers, look at what Sinestro is doing!" through ads or teasers. Compare that to Marvel, which just dropped teasers about the return of Dr. Octopus in Clone Conspiracy and does the same thing with a lot of their villains. DC even did something similar not too long ago with Joker in their teasers for Death of the Family. Too bad Joker is the only villain who receives that kind of publicity.

Time Trapper created his own pocket universe, etc...

Okay. And who gives a flying fart who Time Trapper is? I honestly can't remember the last time he was relevant...because DC didn't make any sort of deal about him.

But, my point is that DC has far more powerful villains, if this is what the thread is about.

Yeah, DC does have powerful villains. But the point is that they don't use them to their maximum potential.

[golgi]

I DO know Sinestro seized Warworld. I'm just stating things from the past and present. Either way, DC villains are generally more powerful, which was my point.

[golgi]

And the only real villains Marvel treats with respect is Dr. Doom.

[Lightning Rider]

Yeah, I agree for the most part. But, IMO, it is better when the heroes are fighting alongside each other than against one another. And to accomplish that, you need a threat from a villain to serve as the catalyst for that interaction.

Yeah I agree. It can't be Civil War all the time. (Or shouldn't be.)

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I DO know Sinestro seized Warworld. I'm just stating things from the past and present. Either way, DC villains are generally more powerful, which was my point.

That's debatable. Not necessarily untrue, but debatable.

And the only real villains Marvel treats with respect is Dr. Doom.

Again, debatable.

[Uncanny Mutie]

LOL, OP, what are you talking about?!? DC has some of the most powerful villains---and characters in general---in all of comics. Many are in fact OVERpowered. Don't know where you get the idea that Darkseid is the only really powerful one.

[Ascended]

That's debatable. Not necessarily untrue, but debatable.

Again, debatable.

I think it's true that the big, recognized names are typically more powerful.

People talk about Marvel being the more grounded, street level universe, but that's not true at all. Both companies have uber-powered characters coming out of their asses, but in DC's case a lot of their big names, like Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Lantern....basically everyone except Batman and Aquaman, happen to be among those Omega level powerhouses. Marvel's big names however, often happen to be the less powerful guys like Captain America, Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Iron Man (who used to be a solid mid-level guy but has climbed the power ladder in recent years). Stands to reason that the well known villains would follow that same rough pattern.

As for Doom...I think its more that Jonathan Hickman treats Doom with respect moreso than its Marvel treating Doom with respect.