Wonder Woman should be better at fighting than Batman?

[daBronzeBomma]

Superhuman powers and fantastic paraphernalia aside, Wonder Woman has often been said to be the "best pure fighter" on the classic Justice League line-up, which conflicts with Batman's oft-cited status as the "greatest martial artist" among DC's major heroes.

On the one hand, Wonder Woman is said to have hundreds (if not thousands) of years of martial training (depending on the continuity of what her age actually is) on Themyscria, whereas Batman is said to have mastered over 100 different martial arts in his mortal lifetime.

So should Wonder Woman be better, worse or equal to Batman in fighting prowess / martial artistry? With and/or without melee weapons?

[Vanguard-01]

When comparing Wonder Woman to Batman, powers must come into the discussion.

Diana should be able to completely annihilate Batman in a straight up fight. She's faster than him. She can strike so fast he can't even respond. She's stronger than him. By rights, even a glancing blow from her should be able to kill or cripple him. She's tougher than him. He shouldn't be able to hurt her, even with his best strike.

On paper? Diana can blitz Batman and crush him before he even knows a fight is happening, or she can just stand there and let him hit her with everything he's got until he's too exhausted to continue.

Sure, prep time does mitigate this somewhat, but Diana is well-established as being one of the hardest enemies for which Batman has to prep. Most of the methods writers come up with are either completely ludicrous (Tower of Babel) or require the creation of a MacGuffin (End Game.)

So, by rights, Diana should be a better fighter than Batman simply by sheer virtue of her ability to beat him in a fight almost without exception. The only way to fairly compare their fighting skills is to take power out of the equation. If Diana were to be depowered, or if Batman were to be empowered with the same powers as Diana? Who comes out on top then?

Me? I say on a level playing field Diana and Batman are about equal in skill, but Diana has one edge. They both have advantages and disadvantages. With powers off the table, Batman is taller, heavier, longer reach, and probably stronger due to simply having more muscle mass than Diana does. Diana, of course, is probably faster, more agile, and I would bet that Amazon martial arts include a plethora of techniques designed to allow women to combat the physical advantages men typically have over women. Hence? Diana would go into a fight like this slightly better prepared than Batman would be. Batman probably hasn't optimized his fighting skills to take on an opponent like Diana. Diana, however, has.

So in a fist fight on a level playing field? You have a long, drawn-out fight in which both characters will have to use their technical skills to the fullest. It would be a very back-and-forth fight that really doesn't end until one of them makes a serious mistake upon which the other one can capitalize. I'd give a slight edge to Diana based solely on the fact that her training no doubt includes techniques that would allow her to mitigate Batman's physical advantages.

When weapons come into play? Whole other ball game. Batman's weapons give him a whole different set of advantages. If Batman gets to bring his toolbelt to the fight? A non-powered Diana is in serious trouble, even if she brought along some of her favorite toys. Batman's gas grenades, for example, pretty much trump anything Diana has. Her shield won't protect her against a cloud of gas. Regular Batarangs? Sure, she can stop those. Explosives? That's going to be a problem. With powers off the table, Batman probably wins if he gets to use his default equipment. Even if Diana gets to bring her weapons too.

Finally we come to melee. Here, Diana should enjoy an ENORMOUS advantage. Yes, Batman is well-known for being skilled with a sword and maybe a few other melee weapons. But Diana has WAY more experience with such weapons. She was trained with them from childhood. She uses melee weapons on a routine basis. Batman's melee fights are much fewer and farther between. Diana wins by sheer virtue of superior experience.

If Diana is, in fact, centuries or millennia old, then Diana does enjoy a considerable experience advantage in most areas.

So overall? With powers off the table, Diana and Batman are pretty even in one area, Batman has a strong advantage in another, and Diana has a strong advantage in another. So they really come across as fairly equal overall. It really depends on what type of fight and what happens to be at stake.

[Lex Luthor]

I think its hard to quantify it...she should be an expert at what she's been practicing her entire life but Bruce should have more styles under his belt than he since he has been exposed to so many different fighters. If she was without powers then they should still be formidable opponents for one another but also idk if I'd say they should be equal or Bruce should have that edge over her just because he has more diversity than she does. If Diana has thousands of years of experience then I'd say it goes to her though but most versions seem to be around the same age as bruce

[unholyrevenger72]

which conflicts with Batman's oft-cited status as the "greatest martial artist" among DC's major heroes.

it's One of the Best Martial Artists in the World (with out super powers).

Batman is Top 10, not number one, when there are equal or better fighters. O-Sensei, Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, Cassandra Kane, (un-augmented)Deathstroke, Connor Hawke, Bronze Tiger.

[Carabas]

which conflicts with Batman's oft-cited status as the "greatest martial artist" among DC's major heroes.

Except he never was, or at least not until the New 52 came around, not sure about his status now.

Used to be people like Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, Ben Turner, even Cassandra Cain could beat him in a strictly martial arts fight, withour relying on a trickout out suit, utility belt, Robin backup, Jeph Loeb writing....

Batman can beat all of them, of course, but not in a fair fight.

[daBronzeBomma]

When comparing Wonder Woman to Batman,

The only way to fairly compare their fighting skills is to take power out of the equation. If Diana were to be depowered, or if Batman were to be empowered with the same powers as Diana? Who comes out on top then?

My bad, I should have been clearer in the original post: yes, this is any scenario where Diana has been robbed of her superhuman abilities and is left with just her learned (non-power-based) skillset at Comic Book Peak Human level, while facing off against Bruce Wayne (also at Comic Book Peak Human level) in non-bloodlust single combat.

So overall? With powers off the table, Diana and Batman are pretty even in one area, Batman has a strong advantage in another, and Diana has a strong advantage in another. So they really come across as fairly equal overall. It really depends on what type of fight and what happens to be at stake.

That's ultimately my take (voted them equals).

Except he never was, or at least not until the New 52 came around, not sure about his status now.

Used to be people like Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, Ben Turner, even Cassandra Cain could beat him in a strictly martial arts fight, withour relying on a trickout out suit, utility belt, Robin backup, Jeph Loeb writing....

Batman can beat all of them, of course, but not in a fair fight.

Oh yeah, I never said that Batman was the DCU's single greatest martial artist (all those characters you mentioned should cleanly beat Bruce in a fair, non-PIS fight): I said among DC's major heroes (basically the Justice League). That's been one of his calling cards among the Top 10 Alpha Super-Heroes (Supes, Bats, WW, GL, Flash, Aqua, MM, GA, Shazam, and ... the Hawks? Zatanna? Cyborg?): he's the best fighter, and the greatest detective, and the most cunning among them.

I do wonder (no pun intended): while Bruce has mastered something like 113 separate martial arts ... which martial arts, specifically, has Diana mastered?

[Pamp_Lusa]

Batman would win because he's a Man and because he's Batman, unless Wonder Woman hit below the belt, that's the only way she could win this. There's a reason Male gymnasts don't compete in the balance beam and women don't compete with men

[Vanguard-01]

I do wonder (no pun intended): while Bruce has mastered something like 113 separate martial arts ... which martial arts, specifically, has Diana mastered?

Amazon fighting techniques seem pretty rooted in Ancient Greek techniques.

The Ancient Greeks had a martial art/sporting event called "Pankration." It literally means "All powers." It was an "anything goes" kind of fighting style that emphasized wrestling, boxing, and throwing techniques. It was, essentially, the early precursor to modern Mixed Martial Arts.

Wrestling would definitely be in Diana's repetoir. Boxing, as well. As I said in my original post, the Amazons no doubt developed a fighting style that allowed them to overcome the physical advantages that men tend to have over women. One of the best modern examples of such a style would be Brazilian jiu-jitsu. It's designed to allow a practitioner to effectively defend him/herself from his/her back and with an enemy on top of them. The Amazons likely have a similar style.

We do see Diana, occasionally, bust out some moves that look like they're straight out of a kung fu movie, so it's safe to assume that Diana either continued studying martial arts after reaching Man's World, or the Amazons simply developed their own equivalents to these fighting styles over their millennia of isolation.

So, Diana's styles likely include Pankration, some variation on Brazilian jiu-jitsu, wrestling, boxing, and some variation on karate, kung fu, or tae kwon do.

Then of course there are her weapon techniques, as well. Sword, sword and shield, spear, spear and shield, battle axe, archery, javelin throwing, staves, Lasso technique (duh,) and Bullets and Bracelets.

Batman would win because he's a Man and because he's Batman, unless Wonder Woman hit below the belt, that's the only way she could win this. There's a reason Male gymnasts don't compete in the balance beam and women don't compete with men.

You ARE aware that women can and do effectively defend themselves against men without resorting to hitting below the belt, right?

I just pointed out that there are fighting techniques that are specifically designed to counter a significant strength or size advantage. It's the reason why Royce Gracie defeated other men nearly twice his size in the first UFC.

[Pamp_Lusa]

Well first of all sport fighting is a completely different ballgame in that there are rules in place and while a Professional female fighter may or may not be able to defeat a Man depending on the size/weight difference, no Female can overcome a Male of equivalent skill, that's just common sense

[Vanguard-01]

Well first of all sport fighting is a completely different ballgame in that there are rules in place and while a Professional female fighter may or may not be able to defeat a Man depending on the size/weight difference, no Female can overcome a Male of equivalent skill, that's just common sense

The original UFC had a whopping three rules: "No biting, no low blows, and no eye gouging."

And since there are documented occasions of women effectively defending themselves against would-be rapists and/or assailants in the real world, I'd say your "common sense" is slightly lacking. It's not easy, but it can be done.

Also? We're talking about fictional characters in a setting where plot dictates the outcome of things.

[Lex Luthor]

Batman would win because he's a Man and because he's Batman, unless Wonder Woman hit below the belt, that's the only way she could win this. There's a reason Male gymnasts don't compete in the balance beam and women don't compete with men

Honestly this is getting into murky area because a. we are in the realm of fiction so there is no reason we have to be limited by the same laws of physics the real world is b. that isn't necessarily true

[Agent 86]

Yes. Wonder Woman should be better at fighting than Batman. But, many writers see Batman as more of a Bat-god. And many other writers see Wonder Woman as little more than Lois Lane in a swimsuit when it comes to her abilities.

[Adekis]

I said this before in a "Superman should be smarter than Batman" thread, but Batman is often written as if it makes any sense for him to be a better combatant and strategist than someone who was trained by the god of War himself, smarter than a man who can program a five-dimensional scalar field to disable a 5D weapon, better focused than people whose weapons run on focus and willpower, etc.

The fact is that by any realistic standards, Batman should be slow, weak and fragile on the League, and certainly not smart in a way that outclasses the goddess of war and truth, an alien superman and a professional forensic scientist.

But then I imagined a world where everyone just constantly keeps pretending to mess up or hold back in order to let Batman feel important, because Alfred begged them to do it, and it was just a really sad idea! I don't want Batman to be pathetic and sad like that. He should at least be best at something. So I'll give him criminal psychology. He can be best at that, and okay at everything else.

But no, Diana kicks his ass in every single fight. In fact, everyone on the League kicks his ass in every single fight, except for Green Arrow, who's in the same boat. His "best thing" is zen.

[theoneandonly]

bat mite to the rescue seriously batman is so outclassed that he was begging her for sanctuary according to some arcane ritual in some story because he was thoroughly beaten by her. without her powers she wouldn't be able to take him as he has regularly sparred with her and is used to her fighting style and would have devised a counter for it though maybe Dianna also has prepared for this eventuality and prepared for it as true warriors always instinctively do

[Majesty]

When comparing Wonder Woman to Batman, powers must come into the discussion.

Diana should be able to completely annihilate Batman in a straight up fight. She's faster than him. She can strike so fast he can't even respond. She's stronger than him. By rights, even a glancing blow from her should be able to kill or cripple him. She's tougher than him. He shouldn't be able to hurt her, even with his best strike.

On paper? Diana can blitz Batman and crush him before he even knows a fight is happening, or she can just stand there and let him hit her with everything he's got until he's too exhausted to continue.

Sure, prep time does mitigate this somewhat, but Diana is well-established as being one of the hardest enemies for which Batman has to prep. Most of the methods writers come up with are either completely ludicrous (Tower of Babel) or require the creation of a MacGuffin (End Game.)

So, by rights, Diana should be a better fighter than Batman simply by sheer virtue of her ability to beat him in a fight almost without exception. The only way to fairly compare their fighting skills is to take power out of the equation. If Diana were to be depowered, or if Batman were to be empowered with the same powers as Diana? Who comes out on top then?

Me? I say on a level playing field Diana and Batman are about equal in skill, but Diana has one edge. They both have advantages and disadvantages. With powers off the table, Batman is taller, heavier, longer reach, and probably stronger due to simply having more muscle mass than Diana does. Diana, of course, is probably faster, more agile, and I would bet that Amazon martial arts include a plethora of techniques designed to allow women to combat the physical advantages men typically have over women. Hence? Diana would go into a fight like this slightly better prepared than Batman would be. Batman probably hasn't optimized his fighting skills to take on an opponent like Diana. Diana, however, has.

So in a fist fight on a level playing field? You have a long, drawn-out fight in which both characters will have to use their technical skills to the fullest. It would be a very back-and-forth fight that really doesn't end until one of them makes a serious mistake upon which the other one can capitalize. I'd give a slight edge to Diana based solely on the fact that her training no doubt includes techniques that would allow her to mitigate Batman's physical advantages.

When weapons come into play? Whole other ball game. Batman's weapons give him a whole different set of advantages. If Batman gets to bring his toolbelt to the fight? A non-powered Diana is in serious trouble, even if she brought along some of her favorite toys. Batman's gas grenades, for example, pretty much trump anything Diana has. Her shield won't protect her against a cloud of gas. Regular Batarangs? Sure, she can stop those. Explosives? That's going to be a problem. With powers off the table, Batman probably wins if he gets to use his default equipment. Even if Diana gets to bring her weapons too.

Finally we come to melee. Here, Diana should enjoy an ENORMOUS advantage. Yes, Batman is well-known for being skilled with a sword and maybe a few other melee weapons. But Diana has WAY more experience with such weapons. She was trained with them from childhood. She uses melee weapons on a routine basis. Batman's melee fights are much fewer and farther between. Diana wins by sheer virtue of superior experience.

If Diana is, in fact, centuries or millennia old, then Diana does enjoy a considerable experience advantage in most areas.

So overall? With powers off the table, Diana and Batman are pretty even in one area, Batman has a strong advantage in another, and Diana has a strong advantage in another. So they really come across as fairly equal overall. It really depends on what type of fight and what happens to be at stake.

Said everything I was going to or could have said, and said it even better than I would have