Oversized "Captain America: Steve Rogers" #4 Packs In Shocking Reveals, Returns

[Huntsman Spider]

Redvector, Hydra-Cap killing Red Skull would be absolutely beautiful karmic irony. Red Skull had Kobik rewrite Steve Rogers's memories so that he would become a loyal deep cover agent of HYDRA in the belief this would put Steve under his control, but it ends with him dead at Steve's hands as Steve is loyal to the "ideal" of HYDRA, not the Red Skull like the Skull arrogantly presumed.

Macattack, thanks for the Breaking Benjamin YouTube link. Big fan.

Tien Long, thanks for sharing that page. Really sums up what makes Steve Rogers a great hero, and hopefully that will ultimately be reaffirmed when this arc concludes.

[pokany]

I am really growing tired of brainwashing every other hero or turning from marvel. Its gotten old at marvel last 10 years. Its boring now. I'm tired of heroes are always at marvel just be at each throats.

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Steve seem tired too hahaha

[Tien Long]

I understand where you're coming from and given that there is already another complicated Captain America story going it would be nice to see Cap Rogers just doing his pure hero schtick. But that said you should continue reading if only because everything so far has been a long set-up for something bigger and likely very much worth reading. That and it's always nice to encourage Marvel to do something different with their characters and stories.

We'll see, bro. I'll always respect tradition and what has come before, but I'm willing to see changes with characters and new stories. Cap's recent acts in the title have been shocking. I can see how they aren't gratuitous and how they are not being done just for shock value. They ultimately serve a purpose, which involves many interesting parts and players.

Still, it's shocking nonetheless. Hopefully the pay off will be worth it.

Thing is we are not seeing Cap kill anyone other maybe some Apes.

In this issue we see him go to strike the Red Ghost seemingly a killing blow but the scene cuts away right there.

I don't think I'm reading too much into things if I say if we don't see the kill then the character probably isn't dead. Considering the last time Spencer depicted Cap killing two people but didn't quite show it one of them turned up alive and well the next issue.

We also have the bodies of Zemo and Selvig being discovered this issue so it seems he's got the access to some lmds or other means of faking someone's death. Then there's the mysterious door we're shown in this issue, if Zemo and Red Ghost aren't alive on the other side I'll eat my hat.

I doubt this story will end with any deaths on Steve's conscious but I can see him carrying guilt over injuring Jack Flag and I'm sure assembling super villains to take down the Red Skull.

An interesting way of framing it. As is the case in the comics world, unless one sees a body and a pronouncement that someone is 100% dead, there's still a possibility that no one has died. Hopefully, Jack Flag won't die. But yeah, who knew that the possible loss of Red Ghost and his super apes would be elicit such a response!

Redvector, Hydra-Cap killing Red Skull would be absolutely beautiful karmic irony. Red Skull had Kobik rewrite Steve Rogers's memories so that he would become a loyal deep cover agent of HYDRA in the belief this would put Steve under his control, but it ends with him dead at Steve's hands as Steve is loyal to the "ideal" of HYDRA, not the Red Skull like the Skull arrogantly presumed.

Macattack, thanks for the Breaking Benjamin YouTube link. Big fan.

Tien Long, thanks for sharing that page. Really sums up what makes Steve Rogers a great hero, and hopefully that will ultimately be reaffirmed when this arc concludes.

No problem, bro. Yeah, saw these panels featured on a thread here. Definitely pull at the heart and a good reminder of who the REAL Steve Rogers is .

[Alpha Storm]

And that went on wwwwwwaayyyy to long.



I just laugh at the fact that I'm wearing a t-shirt of that scene right now. Yeah this feels like he is point to destroy the character make Sam greater cap instead of both being on same level.

I've felt like that from the start, this is Nick Spencer taking out his personal grudge against those people who were jerks on social media(because it's only the jerks that count afterall, never mind all the rest of us) for his own personal agenda.

[Orbus]

I was out before the series even started. I knew it was going to be bad.

I don't think anyone say this is bad. As in badly written or having poor artwork. I've seen more than a few people that don't care for the specific story say they think the actual execution is good.

If the basic concept of this story doesn't appeal to you then fair enough but then I would hope fans don't get into meltdowns about how it's desecrating a character or irreparably ruining him when people should know that when all is said and done it wont turn out that way. Then again not too long ago people expressed the belief that Spencer rewrote the second issue to pacify disgruntled fans and I still hear some DC fans smugly proclaim that Jean Paul Valley didn't last long as Batman as if that wasn't the entire point of that story from the beginning.

An interesting way of framing it. As is the case in the comics world, unless one sees a body and a pronouncement that someone is 100% dead, there's still a possibility that no one has died. Hopefully, Jack Flag won't die. But yeah, who knew that the possible loss of Red Ghost and his super apes would be elicit such a response!

I don't think the response has much to do with killing the Red Ghost and his super apes specifically but rather the the suggestion that Steve Rogers would murder.

I'd argue it seems pretty obvious since he isn't really killing anyone since we never actually the kills. Zemo and Selvig are both supposed to be dead, killed by Steve Rogers and their corpses are found in this very issue. Either Rogers is faking killing them or them or Kobik is doing some reality warping shenanigans. Either case I think it casts doubt on any murder Steve is seemingly commits in the book.

My personal theory is that he's gathering super villains to use against the Red Skull. Depending on the super villains he uses it could be potentially set up the next big Cap story with him leading Hydra or it could be a good thing if the ones he drafts are open to redemption. I don't think it should be lost on anyone this story is connected to the Thunderbolts.

And that went on wwwwwwaayyyy to long.Yeah this feels like he is point to destroy the character make Sam greater cap instead of both being on same level.

Hmmm

I've felt like that from the start, this is Nick Spencer taking out his personal grudge against those people who were jerks on social media(because it's only the jerks that count afterall, never mind all the rest of us) for his own personal agenda.

Even more hmmm.

Are you suggested that Spencer did a mini-event to bring Steve Rogers back and convinced Marvel to publish a second book simply to stick it to his critics on the internet. Critics of an approach (Sam Wilson as Captain America) that wasn't even started by him.

Okay...and Marvel is complicit in this? It seems a lot of these conspiracy theories are at odds with each other. Marvel are trying to ruin the characters and properties they don't have the movie rights to and boost up the characters they own the rights to while on the other hand they are also deliberately ruining those same characters they own the rights to in order for a more "sinister" agenda.

[theoneandonly]

I don't think that cap can come out of this without killing someone or the whole story would be just another rehash of other stories where he turned but there was no repercussions and it is not as if he hasn't killed before. I remember one instance when he killed a terrorist in Russia and returned to America without answering for his actions to Russian authorities anyway I hope we see the induction and training of Steve now that he's a orphan in the next issue and it will have to be pretty extensive indoctrination for young Steve to turn into a double agent and then keep it secret from the government and it would imply that Hydra also made him captain America by infiltration

[Leach]

I've felt like that from the start, this is Nick Spencer taking out his personal grudge against those people who were jerks on social media(because it's only the jerks that count afterall, never mind all the rest of us) for his own personal agenda.

It's funny that you think a writer for a big publisher really cares what the people of [insert social media platform here] think of the story they have crafted and has been in the works for months before people started commenting on it.

Okay...and Marvel is complicit in this? It seems a lot of these conspiracy theories are at odds with each other. Marvel are trying to ruin the characters and properties they don't have the movie rights to and boost up the characters they own the rights to while on the other hand they are also deliberately ruining those same characters they own the rights to in order for a more "sinister" agenda.

So I have found that the forum lurkers in CBR tend to be more conspiracy laden than those in r/conspiracy. This is all an agenda for Marvel to fuck themselves apparently, because they hate money? or they hate their readers? or they're pushing diversity to appease the SJWs? or they want to devalue franchises that have made them a ton of money because a small subsection doesn't have particular rights in a certain media? or something something something hates their comic book fans?

I can't quite figure out what these people think; except it is not sitting back and enjoying a good fictitious story. If they don't like it, then speak with their cash because their comments just make them appear to be insolent children.

[Moon Ronin]

I'm still giving this a chance. This Cap takes so getting used to yes but it seems that there is a bigger story than just Cap being Hydra.

I like that the Red Skulls plain is going to back fire on him. Cap a man with a strategic mind and a loyalty to an Idea that a cause is greater than a man, he is still that, only the idea has changed.
The only problem I have with this is that it is going on during Civil War II, that he has not yet been seen by Ulysses. I mean Ulysses is seeing Old Man Logan killing one person, Nico killing one person (but not the great bug invasion that seems to be killing hundreds, that leads to the killing of this one person) Why didn't he see Cap killing the Red Ghost and his Apes or any of his other acts? Also is Sharon in on it too, it would seem that she would be against such move in government.

[Wellsoul2]

There are many reasons why people are infuriated with this story. Captain America is different from every other character in the Marvel Universe because he represents the USA and fought in WW2 vs the Nazis. If more people from the World War 2 era were still around they would be disgusted with this story. The other way he is different is that he has a very strong Black and white morality to do what is right. Captain America's character might be the most developed and predictable and admired in the Marvel Universe. Comics characters used to stand for something. Things changed in the 80's where you had Punisher, Wolverine and others that had murkier morality. All well and good. Even in the early 2000's Cap questioned why Wolverine, a murderer should be in the Avengers... Now it seems there is no problem with Hawkeye killing and having murderers on every team. Fine..I loved Dark Avengers and other books that have clear bad guys. You need the good guys though too and I think Marvel has gone too far in destroying those characters like Steve Rogers, Thor, and all the Illuminati who are responsible for the death of worlds. Really in the end it makes a crap story because a story is better when you have actual good guys and not just shades of Gray. In Illuminati it seemed Steve Rogers was the only good guy left. This is what made DC crappy...reboots and not keeping the characters having a solid perspective and backstory.

[ChaoticScholar]

The timing of this is so bad. On the anniversary, and when there's a bigass statue of him touring New York, oh and when his movie makes him a better looking hero then Superman. I bet they turn him into Master Hydra Leader too.

[Judge Dredd]

There are many reasons why people are infuriated with this story. Captain America is different from every other character in the Marvel Universe because he represents the USA and fought in WW2 vs the Nazis. If more people from the World War 2 era were still around they would be disgusted with this story. The other way he is different is that he has a very strong Black and white morality to do what is right. Captain America's character might be the most developed and predictable and admired in the Marvel Universe. Comics characters used to stand for something. Things changed in the 80's where you had Punisher, Wolverine and others that had murkier morality. All well and good. Even in the early 2000's Cap questioned why Wolverine, a murderer should be in the Avengers... Now it seems there is no problem with Hawkeye killing and having murderers on every team. Fine..I loved Dark Avengers and other books that have clear bad guys. You need the good guys though too and I think Marvel has gone too far in destroying those characters like Steve Rogers, Thor, and all the Illuminati who are responsible for the death of worlds. Really in the end it makes a crap story because a story is better when you have actual good guys and not just shades of Gray. In Illuminati it seemed Steve Rogers was the only good guy left. This is what made DC crappy...reboots and not keeping the characters having a solid perspective and backstory.

Hickman's use of the Illuminati and the destroying of worlds was a great story and his Avengers and New Avengers were amazing lead ins to Infinity and Secret Wars. Also he is made up and he never really fought Nazis and really had nothing to do with the actual real war that had actual soldiers and heroes fight and die, not someone in spandex. I am sure the veterans of WW2 have better things to do then worry about a comic character, and are more concerned about the health of themselves and other real life veterans from all wars, then if Captain America killed.

[KOSLOX]

Between this and Sam Wilson, these are the best Cap stories since Bucky was THE Captain America.

[Zero Hunter]

This will end with Steve getting his right mind back and feeling so much guilt over the things that have gone on he will retire and go away yet again leaving another open spot for yet another Captain America to step up. Probably a woman this time. I almost promise you that is what is going to happen.

[The Whovian]

I don't think anyone say this is bad. As in badly written or having poor artwork.

When I said bad, I wasn't referring to the writing or art. Just that the story itself would be bad and take Cap to a very dark place and something the exact opposite of what Cap stands for and fights for. This is not a Cap that I want to read about and certainly not a Cap I want to pay for.

[The Whovian]

This will end with Steve getting his right mind back and feeling so much guilt over the things that have gone on he will retire and go away yet again leaving another open spot for yet another Captain America to step up. Probably a woman this time. I almost promise you that is what is going to happen.

Without a doubt, this is exactly where this is headed. Marvel loves replacing its heroes with other people. It's their gimmick.