New Image Rule?

[JFP]

No we "whined" that poster in that thread does not to seem to understand how buissness Works. Not only that but many in that thread do not seem to understand the difference between ongoing and monthly. None of us ever said that they should not try and get comics on out time, but that a break between arcs, which so far this rule does not seem to go against, can be nesesarry to ensure that the creator actuallly are able to pay their rent and feed their families. The argument in that thread was that almost all creators delays happens because creators felt bored with the comics they were doing for Image which I still maintain is stupid. Some do perhaps, but saying that all do is ignoring the way Image publishing is put together. If any actual whining is to be found in that other thread it is from people who think their need for a comic is bigger then the creators need to survive. None of that changes with this new rule. In that other thread I maintained that if you know in advance you might have to do a break either do a bi-monthly book, as in every other month, or do like saga with planned breaks between arcs.

Can you find me actual quotes from people who said, "All creators delays happens because the creators get bored"? Seriously. Find me quotes where people said this. I'm damn sure I never said all the delays were due to creators getting bored.

As many pointed out, the delays weren't happening between arcs. They were happening in the middle of arcs. And sometimes the cancellations were happening before even the twelfth, sixth, or even third issue.

This new 3-issue policy obviously means Image does not have faith many creators are able to finish their comic before issue 3. That says a lot. A whole lot. When you're a comic book publisher and you don't have faith the majority of creators can get to 3 issues (yes, just 3 freaking issues) before cancelling, that says you don't trust the work ethic of creators.

So it's not only fans who think creators mainly quit due to boredom. It's obvious Image also thinks creators quit before issue 3 out of boredom.

I mean, Capuga is most likely right about all of that. Youre just discounting his answer because it dispels your complaints.

Presumable yes, a new bonus comic will replace the WD strip after #12. Maybe they work for free, maybe they get a small cut, maybe if its work for hire they just get their standard rate from the creator. Its not something we as consumers are privy to.

As for being able to afford to put it out; presumably the returns outway the costs. As Capuga said, the Image staff get paid salaries which is the sum of the cut they take from comic sales.
Regular advertising is something that must be paid for, and in itself reaps no monetary return. A magazine like this has a price point for the consumer and so i assume covers its own costs. At least for now.

capuga is not right about all of that. Nor am I right about all of that. We haven't been told the expenses of the magazine. I'm willing to concede he may be right. I'm also willing to believe he might be wrong. If he's right, then I'll admit he's right. Simple.

I believe it is naive to believe Image is doing the magazine without believing they'll get noticeable profit off it. Why would they give themselves extra work for something that they don't believe will give them noticeable profit?

Do you really believe they are doing this mainly for the creators out of the goodness of their own heart and expecting little to no profit? If so, why aren't they trying other types of advertising such as radio, TV, newspaper, and movie ads? Why not make posters and sign ads to put in comic book stores? Why are the only advertising through a magazine? Maybe because a magazine is the only type of advertisement they can see the possibility of making a noticeable profit. It would be ridiculous for Image to expect their distributor to want to go to the trouble of distributing a magazine they don't think will be profitable. It would be ridiculous for Image to expect they want retailers to go through the trouble of trying to sell a magazine they don't think will be profitable. Do you think Image told their distributor and comic bookstore owners, "We're putting out a new magazine. We don't think there will be money out of it. But we want you to spend time and labor trying to sell a product, our magazine, which we don't think you'll make a profit from"?

By the way, it's interesting capuga has pointed out the creators of the bonus comic are most likely gonna work for free, as if he doesn't see anything wrong with this. When fans appear to ask their creators to work for free, he seems outraged, "You want them to work for free or lose money? That's stupid and you're selfish and entitled." But when Image asks creators to work for free, where is his outrage?

If fans had said, "Hey, Kirkman and Adlard, could you make a Negan backstory and sell it for free to us fans out of goodwill and promotion?" He would sneer at us and say, "You fans are entitled because you want creators to work for free." But when Image appears to ask for the Negan story for free out of goodwill and promotion, he shrugs his shoulders. This is the kind of thing I was talking about how fans who never question industry professionals making it difficult for things to move forward.

[Bor]

Can you find me actual quotes from people who said, "All creators delays happens because the creators get bored"? Seriously. Find me quotes where people said this. I'm damn sure I never said all the delays were due to creators getting bored.

Its right there in the thread yes. And I never said YOU said it, but some did. As far as I remember the only thing you said was you belived most of these creators have procrastninated because of boredom. Which I still disagree with but clearly acknowledged some likely do

As many pointed out, the delays weren't happening between arcs. They were happening in the middle of arcs. And sometimes the cancellations were happening before even the twelfth, sixth, or even third issue.

And as many have pointed out this really hasnt happen as much as some people like to think to justify their anger. Plenty of times these delayes have been announced beforehand or people did not realize that some of these were bi-monthly books. Again some poster confuse ongoing with monthly. Not saying you do but a lot of these threads are full of posters that do.
This new 3-issue policy obviously means Image does not have faith many creators are able to finish their comic before issue 3. That says a lot. A whole lot. When you're a comic book publisher and you don't have faith the majority of creators can get to 3 issues (yes, just 3 freaking issues) before cancelling, that says you don't trust the work ethic of creators.

So it's not only fans who think creators mainly quit due to boredom. It's obvious Image also thinks creators quit before issue 3 out of boredom.

So you never said it was out of boredom but you think Image thinks that based on nothing really? Again if you actually look at the past this has not really happened that often. But I dont disagree with this being a fine enough rule. When its the first few issues you can Work on them for a long time beforehand and do some other Work at the some time so you can actually survive. But that is not always the case with a series that has been going on for more then that. I still think the right way forward is the Saga model of breaks between acts, or just announce it as bi-monthly from the start. Or as a minimum talk to the customers and let them know what is going on. And I want to be clear this is all my view on it from a buissness perspective. Personally I buy plenty of things so if a title is delayed it is not really a problem for me.
capuga is not right about all of that. Nor am I right about all of that. We haven't been told the expenses of the magazine. I'm willing to concede he may be right. I'm also willing to believe he might be wrong. If he's right, then I'll admit he's right. Simple.

I believe it is naive to believe Image is doing the magazine without believing they'll get noticeable profit off it. Why would they give themselves extra work for something that they don't believe will give them noticeable profit?

Do you really believe they are doing this mainly for the creators out of the goodness of their own heart and expecting little to no profit? If so, why aren't they trying other types of advertising such as radio, TV, newspaper, and movie ads? Why not make posters and sign ads to put in comic book stores? Why are the only advertising through a magazine? Maybe because a magazine is the only type of advertisement they can see the possibility of making a noticeable profit. It would be ridiculous for Image to expect their distributor to want to go to the trouble of distributing a magazine they don't think will be profitable. It would be ridiculous for Image to expect they want retailers to go through the trouble of trying to sell a magazine they don't think will be profitable. Do you think Image told their distributor and comic bookstore owners, "We're putting out a new magazine. We don't think there will be money out of it. But we want you to spend time and labor trying to sell a product, our magazine, which we don't think you'll make a profit from"?

By the way, it's interesting capuga has pointed out the creators of the bonus comic are most likely gonna work for free, as if he doesn't see anything wrong with this. When fans appear to ask their creators to work for free, he seems outraged, "You want them to work for free or lose money? That's stupid and you're selfish and entitled." But when Image asks creators to work for free, where is his outrage?

If fans had said, "Hey, Kirkman and Adlard, could you make a Negan backstory and sell it for free to us fans out of goodwill and promotion?" He would sneer at us and say, "You fans are entitled because you want creators to work for free." But when Image appears to ask for the Negan story for free out of goodwill and promotion, he shrugs his shoulders. This is the kind of thing I was talking about how fans who never question industry professionals making it difficult for things to move forward.

[B]As for all this I really dont have an opinion about this./B]

[JFP]

In any case, I would like to reiterate my points. Regarding the magazine, some seem to think Image is putting it out for the creators and Image expects little profit from this.

Point 1: For years, people at Image have said advertising costs a lot and Image has little money. Where did they get the money for this kind of advertisement?

Point 2: If Image is using this magazine mainly for advertising for creators and expect little advertisement in return, why aren't they using other forms of advertising? Why aren't they advertising on TV, radio, movies, magazines, newspapers, posters, signs, billboards, etc.? Why only choose a magazine for advertisement?

Point 3: Why would Image give themselves the extra work and spend what little money they have on a magazine they don't think will bring them significant profit?

Point 4: Image can't expect their distributor and comic bookstore owners to spend time and labor handling a product that will bring those guys little to no profit. If Image expects little to no profit off the magazine, how are they gonna convince their distributor and comic bookstore owners to spend time trying to sell it?

Regarding the deadline policy:

Point 1: Image obviously is doing this for us "entitled fans" who don't like abruptly delayed and cancelled books.

Point 2: Image obviously agrees with us "entitled fans" that most creators quit their books out of boredom. Thus, they have a low opinion of the average creator's ability to finish a comic before issue 3 before getting bored with it.

Point 3: When fans ask creators to make sure they have 3 issues done before publishing, we're called "entitled fans". Now that Image is making sure creators have 3 issues done before publishing, does that make Image Comics an "entitled comic book company"?

Point 4: When fans ask creators to make sure they have 3 issues done before publishing, other fans are up in arms saying, "You're entitled because you want creators to work for free!" When Image demands creators have 3 issues for free before publishing, these same fans are silent.

Here's something I have to think about: Image is now taking greater hand in things they previously regarded as going against the creator-owned process. Will they continue with the process of taking a greater hand in creator-owned comics? What does that mean for Image Comics in the future?

My guess is comics like the Walking Dead and Invincible have convinced them that comics coming out regularly is too good of a thing to ignore. WD may be continuing for quite a while, but Invincible is done pretty soon. Now that they are losing a huge cash cow, they have to find another popular comic to take the place of Invincible. They can't allow the majority of their comics to die out before issue 10 like they did in the past. They have to find comics that will stick around and bring long-term profit. Choosing a popular comic and a popular creator might be the key to finding something to replace Invincible. Is getting Rob Liefeld back to do Youngblood a coincidence?

[Orpheus37]

Its no doubt that Image is totally a buyer beware publisher. I think everyone here understands the business model is not a perfect one. The creators are taking most of the risk with these series. Sure, if the series is a hit then they reap big profits, but not everyone is going to have a massive hit, and many times that just comes down to luck. I wonder if there is someone waiting in the wings to make a comic company that runs more like a book publisher, where advances are given and the company takes on some of the risk. I mean cmon, Jonathan Franzen doesn't sit there and write a whole novel just hoping he'll make money on the back end. No way, they make sure he is taken care of, and that they take the risk together. I think this is why we are seeing a vertigo resurgence right now. The creators can make their own content with some support if the series flops. I think we have heard a lot of really boastful self promotion from image about how they are the ultimate publisher. At the end of the day they're not. They are GREAT for creators just starting out, or the REALLY big name creators who actually can sell lots of books, and get them out on time. The problem comes for everyone caught in between, cause obviously the money just isn't enough to live comfortably. Also, I think Image should have creators do a couple shorter series at the company before they can do a massive one, just to make sure they are serious, and that they probably won't crumble under the huge workload of producing 60+ issues. At the end of the day, it is not the fan's job to understand the business. It is bad form for creators to promise series that they can't actually deliver on. They don't have to be condemned for it, but they don't deserve to have a bunch of excuses made for them either.

[Bor]

Regarding the deadline policy:

Point 1: Image obviously is doing this for us "entitled fans" who don't like abruptly delayed and cancelled books.

Point 2: Image obviously agrees with us "entitled fans" that most creators quit their books out of boredom. Thus, they have a low opinion of the average creator's ability to finish a comic before issue 3 before getting bored with it.

Point 3: When fans ask creators to make sure they have 3 issues done before publishing, we're called "entitled fans". Now that Image is making sure creators have 3 issues done before publishing, does that make Image Comics an "entitled comic book company"?

Point 4: When fans ask creators to make sure they have 3 issues done before publishing, other fans are up in arms saying, "You're entitled because you want creators to work for free!" When Image demands creators have 3 issues for free before publishing, these same fans are silent.

Here's something I have to think about: Image is now taking greater hand in things they previously regarded as going against the creator-owned process. Will they continue with the process of taking a greater hand in creator-owned comics? What does that mean for Image Comics in the future?

My guess is comics like the Walking Dead and Invincible have convinced them that comics coming out regularly is too good of a thing to ignore. WD may be continuing for quite a while, but Invincible is done pretty soon. Now that they are losing a huge cash cow, they have to find another popular comic to take the place of Invincible. They can't allow the majority of their comics to die out before issue 10 like they did in the past. They have to find comics that will stick around and bring long-term profit. Choosing a popular comic and a popular creator might be the key to finding something to replace Invincible. Is getting Rob Liefeld back to do Youngblood a coincidence?

Point 1: No they are doing it for all fans and for their buissness offcourse. No fans like delays if it can be avoided but only entitled fans say stuff like "I dont care if real life happens because I DESERVE my comics". "Me getting comics is more important then real life peoples problems".

Point 2: No this rule certaintly does not say that, that is all you. What they are saying is they want to sell a product. There are plenty of reasons already stated in other threads like creators discovering after the first few issues that the title is not selling as well as they hoped so they have to Work for Marvel/DC/other job to have enough Money to pay rent. There are plenty of reasons other then boredom like creators overestimanting their ability/skill to do a regular book. Although I do think its funny that onlya few posts ago you said you had never said this, but know its become somewhat of a cathphrase for you.

3: In the other thread posters mainly talked about a series as a Whole and not really about 3 issues at all. Some posters were called because of statements like point 2. And no Image is a buissness so they are just that, but not entitled. They, unlike entitled fans, have a Financial stake in it so they can set the conditions they want.

point 4: Yes the problem is still for creators that they are not payed up front. Whether this will lead to some creators going to other Publishers instead time will tell, although I doubt it because the problem was never AS big as some said. Some posters seem to think this delays has happened for 99/100 comics when that just not true.
As for fans being "silent" when Image demands it that is clearly not the same thing since they have an actual Financial stake in it.

As for the rest: I doubt both that a Liefeld title is going to sell enough to convince Image of anything on a regular basis, and I doubt Liefeld is ever going to be able to do a monthly book like that in the long run. Unless its bi-monthly or have planned breaks between acts.

[Dark-Flux]

welfth, sixth, or even third issue.

Capuga is not right about all of that. Nor am I right about all of that. We haven't been told the expenses of the magazine. I'm willing to concede he may be right. I'm also willing to believe he might be wrong. If he's right, then I'll admit he's right. Simple.

I believe it is naive to believe Image is doing the magazine without believing they'll get noticeable profit off it. Why would they give themselves extra work for something that they don't believe will give them noticeable profit?

Do you really believe they are doing this mainly for the creators out of the goodness of their own heart and expecting little to no profit? If so, why aren't they trying other types of advertising such as radio, TV, newspaper, and movie ads? Why not make posters and sign ads to put in comic book stores? Why are the only advertising through a magazine? Maybe because a magazine is the only type of advertisement they can see the possibility of making a noticeable profit. It would be ridiculous for Image to expect their distributor to want to go to the trouble of distributing a magazine they don't think will be profitable. It would be ridiculous for Image to expect they want retailers to go through the trouble of trying to sell a magazine they don't think will be profitable. Do you think Image told their distributor and comic bookstore owners, "We're putting out a new magazine. We don't think there will be money out of it. But we want you to spend time and labor trying to sell a product, our magazine, which we don't think you'll make a profit from"?

Dude, do you just not read other users replies and see what you want to see? Because youre building a big straw man here.
Nobody said Image is putting out a magazine they dont think theyll make a profit on. In fact I said the opposite. Theyre putting it out because they can make a profit because they are charging a $1.99 cover price.
What was said, is that they can afford to make it $1.99 because they dont need to pay the creative teams whose work is showcased because its not original material. And that the staff who do work on the book are already getting paid their usual salary. Therefore once the price of printing is taken, the remaining profits are going directly to Image.

Advertising like radio/TV/newspaper etc has a much higher cost, and doesnt offer any direct return. Unlike Image+ magazine which has low overheads and is purchased by retailers like any comic.

By the way, it's interesting capuga has pointed out the creators of the bonus comic are most likely gonna work for free, as if he doesn't see anything wrong with this. When fans appear to ask their creators to work for free, he seems outraged, "You want them to work for free or lose money? That's stupid and you're selfish and entitled." But when Image asks creators to work for free, where is his outrage?

If fans had said, "Hey, Kirkman and Adlard, could you make a Negan backstory and sell it for free to us fans out of goodwill and promotion?" He would sneer at us and say, "You fans are entitled because you want creators to work for free." But when Image appears to ask for the Negan story for free out of goodwill and promotion, he shrugs his shoulders. This is the kind of thing I was talking about how fans who never question industry professionals making it difficult for things to move forward.

Kirkman is Image. He's the COO. He's also a millionaire. In all likelihood is was his own idea to do it.
The idea that the creatives are not being paid for the original content is also an assumption.
And theres a difference between creators deciding to do free work to promote themselves and entitled fans demanding that they do so.

[JFP]

Bor, as I asked before, "Where specifically in that thread has anyone said 'All delays are due to the creator getting bored'?" You said yes people in that thread said that. But you have no quoted anyone to back up this claim. I am not talking about other threads. I am talking about that specific thread. Who in that thread has made that statement?

Bor said, "And as many have pointed out this really hasnt happen as much as some people like to think to justify their anger. Plenty of times these delayes have been announced beforehand or people did not realize that some of these were bi-monthly books. Again some poster confuse ongoing with monthly. Not saying you do but a lot of these threads are full of posters that do."

Many in the thread disagreed. This has happened enough to justify our anger. Judging by the fact that Image is instituting this 3-issue before publishing policy, they also agree this happens enough times to be a problem.

In addition, you keep saying many of these books that are delayed were said to be merely ongoing or bi-monthly. How do you know the books we were talking about weren't the ones specified to be monthly?

Bor said, "So you never said it was out of boredom but you think Image thinks that based on nothing really?"

No, I'm basing it on the fact that they are implementing it at all. Why would Image implement it if they don't think creators abruptly delay or cancel out of boredom?

Bor said, "Again if you actually look at the past this has not really happened that often. But I dont disagree with this being a fine enough rule. When its the first few issues you can Work on them for a long time beforehand and do some other Work at the some time so you can actually survive. But that is not always the case with a series that has been going on for more then that. I still think the right way forward is the Saga model of breaks between acts, or just announce it as bi-monthly from the start. Or as a minimum talk to the customers and let them know what is going on. And I want to be clear this is all my view on it from a buissness perspective. Personally I buy plenty of things so if a title is delayed it is not really a problem for me."

The business model for selling comics in America differ from those in your country (don't you live in European country?). American comic bookstores simply cannot make money if a significant number of comics are monthly or ongoing with breaks between arcs. Have you ever been inside a comic bookstore in America? The majority of them are open between Noon and 7 (1900). So they average around 7 hours a day. Many aren't even open on weekends. During the most of the day, they are abysmally low on customers. A comic bookstore owner could be open in a location with a large population and count the number of customers who come in for the entire day on his fingers. Hell, he could count the amount of money he makes on his fingers. This is how difficult it is for him to make sales off his monthly.

If a significant number of comics started taking break between arcs that would reduce the number of customers who show up on a regular basis. The average customer won't show up for months on end because he's waiting for months for the next arc to start for his favorite comic. How is the comic bookstore owner going to pay his bills like that?

Having comics come out on a regular set schedule is something he can calculate his expenses around. Comics having breaks between arcs throws that out of whack for him. A few comics doing that wouldn't be bad. But the majority would screw that up.

I know you're a Euro comic fan and used to delays, but following the Euro comic book business model would be horrible for the already decline American comic book industry. Few people wanna see the US comic industry become like Europe's.

[Dark-Flux]

Its no doubt that Image is totally a buyer beware publisher. I think everyone here understands the business model is not a perfect one. The creators are taking most of the risk with these series. Sure, if the series is a hit then they reap big profits, but not everyone is going to have a massive hit, and many times that just comes down to luck. I wonder if there is someone waiting in the wings to make a comic company that runs more like a book publisher, where advances are given and the company takes on some of the risk. I mean cmon, Jonathan Franzen doesn't sit there and write a whole novel just hoping he'll make money on the back end. No way, they make sure he is taken care of, and that they take the risk together. I think this is why we are seeing a vertigo resurgence right now. The creators can make their own content with some support if the series flops. I think we have heard a lot of really boastful self promotion from image about how they are the ultimate publisher. At the end of the day they're not. They are GREAT for creators just starting out, or the REALLY big name creators who actually can sell lots of books, and get them out on time. The problem comes for everyone caught in between, cause obviously the money just isn't enough to live comfortably. Also, I think Image should have creators do a couple shorter series at the company before they can do a massive one, just to make sure they are serious, and that they probably won't crumble under the huge workload of producing 60+ issues. At the end of the day, it is not the fan's job to understand the business. It is bad form for creators to promise series that they can't actually deliver on. They don't have to be condemned for it, but they don't deserve to have a bunch of excuses made for them either.

Eh, are we though?
Granted ive not paid much attention to Vertigo lately but I was under the impression that they released a bunch of creator-owned books ealier this year (but held onto the media rights cos Vertigo) and besides Shefiff of Babylon they all pretty much died after the first arc. Berger was fired. (And is now at Image, go figure) and the future looks like one new book from Williamson and then a return to more edgy/dark work-for-hire on DC properties.

[Orpheus37]

Eh, are we though?
Granted ive not paid much attention to Vertigo lately but I was under the impression that they released a bunch of creator-owned books ealier this year (but held onto the media rights cos Vertigo) and besides Shefiff of Babylon they all pretty much died after the first arc. Berger was fired. (And is now at Image, go figure) and the future looks like one new book from Williamson and then a return to more edgy/dark work-for-hire on DC properties.

Maybe not, I was mostly thinking of Sheriff of Babylon. I know people liked Unfollow. Twilight Children was a big get for them too.

[Dark-Flux]

Maybe not, I was mostly thinking of Sheriff of Babylon. I know people liked Unfollow. Twilight Children was a big get for them too.

I aint disputing that theyve put out some great stuff. Hell most the the recent cancelled stuff was really good. But none of them particularly lit up the sales chart which unfortunatley means DC are unlikely to put any effort into making Vertigo a competative option for creator-owned work.

[Bor]

Bor, as I asked before, "Where specifically in that thread has anyone said 'All delays are due to the creator getting bored'?" You said yes people in that thread said that. But you have no quoted anyone to back up this claim. I am not talking about other threads. I am talking about that specific thread. Who in that thread has made that statement?

Normally I would spend time going through it all Again, but as others have pointed out you seem to ignore actual evidence so I am just going to say if people want to it is right there in the other thread, I am not going to Waste my time. Although I still think its funny you deny while at the same time arguing that this is what Image is thinking and basing their new rule on.
Bor said, "And as many have pointed out this really hasnt happen as much as some people like to think to justify their anger. Plenty of times these delayes have been announced beforehand or people did not realize that some of these were bi-monthly books. Again some poster confuse ongoing with monthly. Not saying you do but a lot of these threads are full of posters that do."

Many in the thread disagreed. This has happened enough to justify our anger. Judging by the fact that Image is instituting this 3-issue before publishing policy, they also agree this happens enough times to be a problem.

In addition, you keep saying many of these books that are delayed were said to be merely ongoing or bi-monthly. How do you know the books we were talking about weren't the ones specified to be monthly?

I know because several times people here have named titles and then confused ongoing with monthly.

Bor said, "So you never said it was out of boredom but you think Image thinks that based on nothing really?"

No, I'm basing it on the fact that they are implementing it at all. Why would Image implement it if they don't think creators abruptly delay or cancel out of boredom?

Among others for some of the reasons I stated in my last post. Sure boredom fits for some, and I never denied that, but some times its stuff like people thinking they could do a monthly book and then discovering that they had clearly overestimated their ability or skill to do a monthly book. That is not really that different from other types of Work. You think you can do it but then discover that it was not as easy as you had thought. That does not mean you were bored with the job, but that you clearly were not as fast as you thought you were. I am sure Image knows these many reasons, but in the end it doenst matter to them one way or another, what they care about is selling books so therefor they see a need for this 3 issue thing.

Bor said, "Again if you actually look at the past this has not really happened that often. But I dont disagree with this being a fine enough rule. When its the first few issues you can Work on them for a long time beforehand and do some other Work at the some time so you can actually survive. But that is not always the case with a series that has been going on for more then that. I still think the right way forward is the Saga model of breaks between acts, or just announce it as bi-monthly from the start. Or as a minimum talk to the customers and let them know what is going on. And I want to be clear this is all my view on it from a buissness perspective. Personally I buy plenty of things so if a title is delayed it is not really a problem for me."

The business model for selling comics in America differ from those in your country (don't you live in European country?). American comic bookstores simply cannot make money if a significant number of comics are monthly or ongoing with breaks between arcs. Have you ever been inside a comic bookstore in America? The majority of them are open between Noon and 7 (1900). So they average around 7 hours a day. Many aren't even open on weekends. During the most of the day, they are abysmally low on customers. A comic bookstore owner could be open in a location with a large population and count the number of customers who come in for the entire day on his fingers. Hell, he could count the amount of money he makes on his fingers. This is how difficult it is for him to make sales off his monthly.
Yes I do live in Europe (Denmark) but that has nothing to do with this. And yes I have spent time in America before, mainly New York and Florida, so I have seen both busy and not so busy stores.


If a significant number of comics started taking break between arcs that would reduce the number of customers who show up on a regular basis. The average customer won't show up for months on end because he's waiting for months for the next arc to start for his favorite comic. How is the comic bookstore owner going to pay his bills like that?

Having comics come out on a regular set schedule is something he can calculate his expenses around. Comics having breaks between arcs throws that out of whack for him. A few comics doing that wouldn't be bad. But the majority would screw that up.

I know you're a Euro comic fan and used to delays, but following the Euro comic book business model would be horrible for the already decline American comic book industry. Few people wanna see the US comic industry become like Europe's.

You seem to still not understand the Image buissness model. Image compared to Marvel and DC make a lot more of the Money on collected editions and evergreens. The fact that you think that because I am from another country does not mean I havent read up on all this, whereas you seemly havent. Yes if all Publishers did this, mainly the big two here, it could be a problem, but when doing interviews/polls from comic shops most shops thend to say that they live and die on big two single issues and only to a small degree from other Publisher like Image. I agree all publishers doing it this way would hurt many shops, but I never said I wanted this for all just like I would not want all publishers to rely as much on super heroes as the big two does, despite my love for many of those titles.

[JFP]

Its no doubt that Image is totally a buyer beware publisher. I think everyone here understands the business model is not a perfect one. The creators are taking most of the risk with these series. Sure, if the series is a hit then they reap big profits, but not everyone is going to have a massive hit, and many times that just comes down to luck. I wonder if there is someone waiting in the wings to make a comic company that runs more like a book publisher, where advances are given and the company takes on some of the risk. I mean cmon, Jonathan Franzen doesn't sit there and write a whole novel just hoping he'll make money on the back end. No way, they make sure he is taken care of, and that they take the risk together. I think this is why we are seeing a vertigo resurgence right now. The creators can make their own content with some support if the series flops. I think we have heard a lot of really boastful self promotion from image about how they are the ultimate publisher. At the end of the day they're not. They are GREAT for creators just starting out, or the REALLY big name creators who actually can sell lots of books, and get them out on time. The problem comes for everyone caught in between, cause obviously the money just isn't enough to live comfortably. Also, I think Image should have creators do a couple shorter series at the company before they can do a massive one, just to make sure they are serious, and that they probably won't crumble under the huge workload of producing 60+ issues. At the end of the day, it is not the fan's job to understand the business. It is bad form for creators to promise series that they can't actually deliver on. They don't have to be condemned for it, but they don't deserve to have a bunch of excuses made for them either.

Agree with this entirely.

Point 1: No they are doing it for all fans and for their buissness offcourse. No fans like delays if it can be avoided but only entitled fans say stuff like "I dont care if real life happens because I DESERVE my comics". "Me getting comics is more important then real life peoples problems".

1. They are not doing it for fans like you who say you are comfortable with delays and argue against a deadline policy. Since when do fans like delays that can avoided? Also, you keep ignoring one important fact: abrupt delays and cancellations are extremely common in monthly comics. We're not talking about ongoing or bimonthly. We are talking about abrupt delays and cancellations in monthly comics. The problem is a significant number of the buying public has zero trust in the monthly comics published by Image ability to continue without delays or cancellations. Sneer at them all you want, but these "entitled fans" are paying customers. Image cannot afford to alienate us.

Point 2: No this rule certaintly does not say that, that is all you. What they are saying is they want to sell a product. There are plenty of reasons already stated in other threads like creators discovering after the first few issues that the title is not selling as well as they hoped so they have to Work for Marvel/DC/other job to have enough Money to pay rent. There are plenty of reasons other then boredom like creators overestimanting their ability/skill to do a regular book. Although I do think its funny that onlya few posts ago you said you had never said this, but know its become somewhat of a cathphrase for you.

2. Only a few posts ago I never said all posters quit out of boredom. I do not understand why you keep insisting people in that thread all quit out of boredom but refuse to post actual quotes to back up your claim.

3: In the other thread posters mainly talked about a series as a Whole and not really about 3 issues at all. Some posters were called because of statements like point 2. And no Image is a buissness so they are just that, but not entitled. They, unlike entitled fans, have a Financial stake in it so they can set the conditions they want.

3. Fans do have a financial stake in things. Just because you don't think so, doesn't mean it isn't there. If you owned your own comic book company and said to some of your customers, "You're just entitled fans. You have no financial stake in this" and these customers took their money elsewhere, after seeing a significant drop in profits, you would realize fans do have a financial stake in this.

point 4: Yes the problem is still for creators that they are not payed up front. Whether this will lead to some creators going to other Publishers instead time will tell, although I doubt it because the problem was never AS big as some said. Some posters seem to think this delays has happened for 99/100 comics when that just not true.
As for fans being "silent" when Image demands it that is clearly not the same thing since they have an actual Financial stake in it.

4. Your opinion: a significant number of fans are entitled fans with no financial stake. Fact: these entitled fans are important for profits. Sneer and scorn us all you want but Image can't afford to alienate us. We'll just take our entitled money someplace else.
As for the rest: I doubt both that a Liefeld title is going to sell enough to convince Image of anything on a regular basis, and I doubt Liefeld is ever going to be able to do a monthly book like that in the long run. Unless its bi-monthly or have planned breaks between acts.

My responses in bold.

I find this whole argument about delays interesting. Both Japan and America are the countries with the top 2 biggest comic book industries. How did they get that way? By selling cheap, disposable, entertaining comics that were sold at a large number of locations, and also sold on a regular set schedule. As the years go by, American comic books are more and more turning away from their roots that made them successful. And many fans are arguing in favor of things that lead to the industry declining. Fans are arguing against comics being cheap. They are arguing against comics being disposable (because they like to collect them). Fans are arguing against zany and entertaining because they appear childish. Fans are arguing against them making an effort to get them into more retailers like grocery stores and gas stations because it costs too much money that might not bring profit. And we also have fans arguing against creators doing what they can to keep a regular set schedule.

If American comics had started out the way they currently are now, the American comic book industry would be like Europe (if it is lucky). I can't wrap my head around the rationale for a declining industry to follow the business model of a far less successful industry.

Japan's comic book industry sees billions of yen a year. America, with 3 times the population, sees a fraction of that in a decade. One way to the Japanese have got a better industry is that in Japan, 1 page per day is considered average at best. In other countries, in including America, 1 page per day is breakneck speed. 4-5 per day is average. How come Japanese artists are able to push themselves other artists can't? Whenever you tell people to follow the Japanese, they sneer and give a bunch of excuses. I cannot understand the reasoning of being scornful and derisive of a multi-billion dollar industry like Japan's, and following a thousand dollar industry like Europe's.

[sven]

Eh, are we though?
Granted ive not paid much attention to Vertigo lately but I was under the impression that they released a bunch of creator-owned books ealier this year (but held onto the media rights cos Vertigo) and besides Shefiff of Babylon they all pretty much died after the first arc. Berger was fired. (And is now at Image, go figure) and the future looks like one new book from Williamson and then a return to more edgy/dark work-for-hire on DC properties.

Certainly not in sales.

191 Lucifer 8* $3.99 DC 9,968
192 Astro City 37 $3.99 DC 9,953
260 Clean Room 10* $3.99 DC 6,069
271 Sheriff of Babylon 8* $3.99 DC 5,680

Unfollow, Red Thorne, Art Ops, Dark & Bloody, and Suiciders did not chart at all.

So less than half of their books even charted and the ones that did had sales that range from average to well below average for an Image title.

Sheriff sold worse than 18 of the 20 Image titles I bought last months and it only beat Switch and Revival by 100 issues.

I just don't see them as a real threat unless creators are willing to work for less money just to work at DC like King. That is going to be rare.

[Bor]

Agree with this entirely.


My responses in bold.

I find this whole argument about delays interesting. Both Japan and America are the countries with the top 2 biggest comic book industries. How did they get that way? By selling cheap, disposable, entertaining comics that were sold at a large number of locations, and also sold on a regular set schedule. As the years go by, American comic books are more and more turning away from their roots that made them successful. And many fans are arguing in favor of things that lead to the industry declining. Fans are arguing against comics being cheap. They are arguing against comics being disposable (because they like to collect them). Fans are arguing against zany and entertaining because they appear childish. Fans are arguing against them making an effort to get them into more retailers like grocery stores and gas stations because it costs too much money that might not bring profit. And we also have fans arguing against creators doing what they can to keep a regular set schedule.

If American comics had started out the way they currently are now, the American comic book industry would be like Europe (if it is lucky). I can't wrap my head around the rationale for a declining industry to follow the business model of a far less successful industry.

Japan's comic book industry sees billions of yen a year. America, with 3 times the population, sees a fraction of that in a decade. One way to the Japanese have got a better industry is that in Japan, 1 page per day is considered average at best. In other countries, in including America, 1 page per day is breakneck speed. 4-5 per day is average. How come Japanese artists are able to push themselves other artists can't? Whenever you tell people to follow the Japanese, they sneer and give a bunch of excuses. I cannot understand the reasoning of being scornful and derisive of a multi-billion dollar industry like Japan's, and following a thousand dollar industry like Europe's.

[B]1. Yes actually they are. They are doing it for all fans which includes me. You keep ignoring the many fans that unlike me, WHO can wait, and those that I and others call entitled fans, re a very big Group of fans who might not be entitled but may very well decide to not buy the single isssues and switch to trades or even completely forget a series exist because of not being published regurly. Despite your viewpoint Image looks at the big Pictures and not just to those who think there needs for a issue is more important then peoples Lifes. Also "extremely common"? No its really not. It happens but out of the many comics coming out its not as common as you make it seem from Image if you actually take time to look at the numbers. But yes it does happen and that is what Image is trying to avoid.

2. I refuse nothing, I choose not to Waste more time when its right there in the thread for people to see. And what are you talking about posters quitting out of boredom? I am saying people say creators quit out of boredom, which many posters claims and think is the main problem.

3. If you dont understand the difference between being a consumer and having a finansical stake then I really dont know what to tell you. I am talking about an ACTUAL finansial stake as is defined by buissness law and from that no you/I/others do not have a finansial stake. If a comic is stopped from being published you Loose no Money, whereas a buissness does. That is the differeme. But we have already had this discussion in the other thread to so I thinks its unlikely any of us is going to move on this. The difference is I am talking about actual Laws and you are arguing semantics of "a stake" while ignoring the difference between an emotionel and finansial stake.

4.No the laws of buissness says that. And thank you yess I will keep "sneering" of any fans that think there petty need for a specific book every month is more important then peoples Lifes.

As for the rest: The comic industry as a Whole can not go back to what it once where unless you go back and remove others things like video games, the internet etc. If people want their animated fix there are so many alternatives now that that is just not going to happen. Not only that but creators would also have to go back to being payed a lot less in salery and no pension. It is well documented how many older creators have had problems living because they were paid so Little in their old lifes. Also you seem to ignore the fact that the industry is not a declining one which all numbers shows. Yes they are Down from 50 years ago, but in general no it is not. Look at the actual numbers please.

[Dark-Flux]

American comics had started out the way they currently are now, the American comic book industry would be like Europe (if it is lucky). I can't wrap my head around the rationale for a declining industry to follow the business model of a far less successful industry.

By all reports the Euro-comics industry is a lot bigger than you make out.
The top selling French-belgian comics sell 300'000-500'000 copies in France alone. Stuff like Asterix is known to sell over a million copies on release.

Japan's comic book industry sees billions of yen a year. America, with 3 times the population, sees a fraction of that in a decade. One way to the Japanese have got a better industry is that in Japan, 1 page per day is considered average at best. In other countries, in including America, 1 page per day is breakneck speed. 4-5 per day is average. How come Japanese artists are able to push themselves other artists can't? Whenever you tell people to follow the Japanese, they sneer and give a bunch of excuses. I cannot understand the reasoning of being scornful and derisive of a multi-billion dollar industry like Japan's, and following a thousand dollar industry like Europe's.

Manga artists have help from a team of uncredited assistants. Sometimes the used studio will receive credit. Its common practice for the headline artist to draw the main characters and assistants will draw backgrounds, background characters, will tidy the work and provide the inks.
The majority of manga is also uncoloured.

And uh, comics in France alone generated $450million in 2014.
Then theres Belgium, Italy, Spain, Germany to add up...

Whatever the total is, the Euro comics industry net worth is in the millions, possibly billions of dollars. Just not in the US.