New Image Rule?

[JFP]

Dude, do you just not read other users replies and see what you want to see? Because youre building a big straw man here.
Nobody said Image is putting out a magazine they dont think theyll make a profit on. In fact I said the opposite. Theyre putting it out because they can make a profit because they are charging a $1.99 cover price.
What was said, is that they can afford to make it $1.99 because they dont need to pay the creative teams whose work is showcased because its not original material. And that the staff who do work on the book are already getting paid their usual salary. Therefore once the price of printing is taken, the remaining profits are going directly to Image.

Advertising like radio/TV/newspaper etc has a much higher cost, and doesnt offer any direct return. Unlike Image+ magazine which has low overheads and is purchased by retailers like any comic.



Kirkman is Image. He's the COO. He's also a millionaire. In all likelihood is was his own idea to do it.
The idea that the creatives are not being paid for the original content is also an assumption.
And theres a difference between creators deciding to do free work to promote themselves and entitled fans demanding that they do so.

I remember now. It was Joker who indicated they might not be doing it with the expectation of big profit. Sorry I projected that upon you.

How am I demanding they do free work when I am paying for it?

[B]1. Yes actually they are. They are doing it for all fans which includes me. You keep ignoring the many fans that unlike me, WHO can wait, and those that I and others call entitled fans, re a very big Group of fans who might not be entitled but may very well decide to not buy the single isssues and switch to trades or even completely forget a series exist because of not being published regurly. Despite your viewpoint Image looks at the big Pictures and not just to those who think there needs for a issue is more important then peoples Lifes. Also "extremely common"? No its really not. It happens but out of the many comics coming out its not as common as you make it seem from Image if you actually take time to look at the numbers. But yes it does happen and that is what Image is trying to avoid.

2. I refuse nothing, I choose not to Waste more time when its right there in the thread for people to see. And what are you talking about posters quitting out of boredom? I am saying people say creators quit out of boredom, which many posters claims and think is the main problem.

3. If you dont understand the difference between being a consumer and having a finansical stake then I really dont know what to tell you. I am talking about an ACTUAL finansial stake as is defined by buissness law and from that no you/I/others do not have a finansial stake. If a comic is stopped from being published you Loose no Money, whereas a buissness does. That is the differeme. But we have already had this discussion in the other thread to so I thinks its unlikely any of us is going to move on this. The difference is I am talking about actual Laws and you are arguing semantics of "a stake" while ignoring the difference between an emotionel and finansial stake.

4.No the laws of buissness says that. And thank you yess I will keep "sneering" of any fans that think there petty need for a specific book every month is more important then peoples Lifes.

As for the rest: The comic industry as a Whole can not go back to what it once where unless you go back and remove others things like video games, the internet etc. If people want their animated fix there are so many alternatives now that that is just not going to happen. Not only that but creators would also have to go back to being payed a lot less in salery and no pension. It is well documented how many older creators have had problems living because they were paid so Little in their old lifes. Also you seem to ignore the fact that the industry is not a declining one which all numbers shows. Yes they are Down from 50 years ago, but in general no it is not. Look at the actual numbers please.

1. All fans are benefiting from this 3-issue policy. But they are doing it for the fans who are unwilling to wait, which excludes you, but includes entitled fans.

And yes, books being abruptly delayed and cancelled is extremely common. Extremely common means it happens enough times for them to need to impose a deadline.

2. If you do not wish to provide the quotes where posters said, "All creators quit out of boredom", then will you please quit insisting this is what people have said?

3. Fine. We're not gonna agree on this. Let's end it.

4. You mean their lives are at stake when they say they don't have the time and money to finish a comic but they have the time and money to attend all-expenses paid trips to comic cons where they sell their art for hundreds of dollars?

The film industry, the music industry, the video game industry, and other industries are still billion dollar industries despite the fact that they compete with other entertainment industries. Comics could do the same. If Japan can still sell billions of dollars worth of comics with a third of America's population, the American comic book industry can do the same.

But you're saying you don't understand how I can say the industry is in decline based on what the numbers show.

I do not see how an industry where 150,000 sold is a bestseller is strong. I do not see an industry where the numbers of comic bookstores in a country of more than 300 million is less than 300 is strong. I do not see comic bookstores closing left and right shows a strong industry. Sure, they have good profits compared to years ago. But the profits for video rental stores are good compared to years ago too. Is anyone gonna say the video rental industry is strong? Or are they gonna say it is in decline?

By all reports the Euro-comics industry is a lot bigger than you make out.
The top selling French-belgian comics sell 300'000-500'000 copies in France alone. Stuff like Asterix is known to sell over a million copies on release.




Manga artists have help from a team of uncredited assistants. Sometimes the used studio will receive credit. Its common practice for the headline artist to draw the main characters and assistants will draw backgrounds, background characters, will tidy the work and provide the inks.
The majority of manga is also uncoloured.

And uh, comics in France alone generated $450million in 2014.
Then theres Belgium, Italy, Spain, Germany to add up...

Whatever the total is, the Euro comics industry net worth is in the millions, possibly billions of dollars. Just not in the US.

Where are your numbers to back this up about the profits for the Euro comic industry? Not saying I disagree. I have been googling for them and can't find them.

In addition, it's not just the numbers that make the Euro comic market pathetic, it's the comic book situation. Asterix and Tintin are how old? Damn near a century old. Yet they dominate the Euro comic market. Same thing goes for comics by the Big 2. It's pathetic when comics featuring characters damn near a century old dominate the industry and new and interesting stories only have a fraction of recognition and profit. This is not a pleasant thing for either the Euro or American comic book industries. At least in Japan, comic books less than 5 year old can spring to the top on a regular basis. In America and Europe that's practically unheard of. Pathetic.

I understand how manga artists get their work done. I was just wondering why American artists can't follow that successful model.

I want to see information on what comics generate the most money in Europe. If comics generate $450 million in France, are the sales entirely from Euro comics? Do those figures include foreign comic sales? If so, depending on how much the foreign comic sales make up that $450 million, the Euro comic industry may not make as much money as you are proposing.

[Bor]

I remember now. It was Joker who indicated they might not be doing it with the expectation of big profit. Sorry I projected that upon you.

How am I demanding they do free work when I am paying for it?

1. All fans are benefiting from this 3-issue policy. But they are doing it for the fans who are unwilling to wait, which excludes you, but includes entitled fans.

And yes, books being abruptly delayed and cancelled is extremely common. Extremely common means it happens enough times for them to need to impose a deadline.

No it also as I said includes fans WHO might end up not buying a series because they forgot about it completely or end up buying it years after the fact as Tp/hardcover, which certaintly means me.

2. If you do not wish to provide the quotes where posters said, "All creators quit out of boredom", then will you please quit insisting this is what people have said?

I´ll tell you what stop ignoring actual facts and numbers and I will go back and find it for you.

3. Fine. We're not gonna agree on this. Let's end it.

Agreed

4. You mean their lives are at stake when they say they don't have the time and money to finish a comic but they have the time and money to attend all-expenses paid trips to comic cons where they sell their art for hundreds of dollars?

You really seem to have misunderstood how many conventions Work. Often these creators are not actually payed anything in advance nor do they have "all-expenses paid trip". Espescially not if you are not on of the big a list names. Sure Geoff Johns likely is well taken cared for but that really dont apply to everyone. That is well documented by many creators too. Most of the time these creators are not millionairs or anything close to that. Sure if you get a hit like Walking dead/ get a tv/movie deal you can make some real Money, but that does not happen to everyone and even for those that are lucky, they often have to wait years until it happens.
I am talking about the fact that some of these creators Lifes are at stake when they have to do several months Work in advance with no guarentee that they will make back the Money in the near future. That is how the Image model Works.

The film industry, the music industry, the video game industry, and other industries are still billion dollar industries despite the fact that they compete with other entertainment industries. Comics could do the same. If Japan can still sell billions of dollars worth of comics with a third of America's population, the American comic book industry can do the same.

But you're saying you don't understand how I can say the industry is in decline based on what the numbers show.

I do not see how an industry where 150,000 sold is a bestseller is strong. I do not see an industry where the numbers of comic bookstores in a country of more than 300 million is less than 300 is strong. I do not see comic bookstores closing left and right shows a strong industry. Sure, they have good profits compared to years ago. But the profits for video rental stores are good compared to years ago too. Is anyone gonna say the video rental industry is strong? Or are they gonna say it is in decline?

I am saying it is not in decline because more comics are being solled and more Money is being made. It is really that simple. And while the lack of comicbook stores certaintly is to bad, a lot of sales are happening on online stores or as digital comics. I agree that the status of the comic buissness is not GREAT but saying that it is in decline is factually wrong.
Where are your numbers to back this up about the profits for the Euro comic industry? Not saying I disagree. I have been googling for them and can't find them.

In addition, it's not just the numbers that make the Euro comic market pathetic, it's the comic book situation. Asterix and Tintin are how old? Damn near a century old. Yet they dominate the Euro comic market. Same thing goes for comics by the Big 2. It's pathetic when comics featuring characters damn near a century old dominate the industry and new and interesting stories only have a fraction of recognition and profit. This is not a pleasant thing for either the Euro or American comic book industries. At least in Japan, comic books less than 5 year old can spring to the top on a regular basis. In America and Europe that's practically unheard of. Pathetic.

I understand how manga artists get their work done. I was just wondering why American artists can't follow that successful model.

I want to see information on what comics generate the most money in Europe. If comics generate $450 million in France, are the sales entirely from Euro comics? Do those figures include foreign comic sales? If so, depending on how much the foreign comic sales make up that $450 million, the Euro comic industry may not make as much money as you are proposing.

Now you are arguing creativeity and not sales. Just like Just like many Europeans have not heard about various non big two comics there are many comics you likely havent even heard about because they dont sell AS well as some of those you mentioned. Other then that I was not given those numbers so I will let Dark-Flux speak for himself.

[TotalSnorefest]

To be honest I don't have a lot of thoughts here, I'm mainly into comics for the stories, not so much the business side. So take my speculation with appropriate amounts of salt! But want to reply to one thing:

I believe it is naive to believe Image is doing the magazine without believing they'll get noticeable profit off it. Why would they give themselves extra work for something that they don't believe will give them noticeable profit?

Think you're mostly right on this point. Comics retailers buy mostly through Diamond, who publish available product solicitations in Previews Magazine. However, Marvel gets an entire magazine just for themselves, and recently DC did too for its Reborn/Rebirth (I forget the name, sorry) month. Image+ Magazine is yet another publisher deciding it might be worth it to publish their own magazine to further spotlight their products, and prevent them from being overlooked in the Previews flood.

So yeah I think you're correct that they're doing this to get more attention (and sales), and they use popular creators like Charlie Adlard to get regular customers (not just shop owners) interested too, who will see a lot of other products on offer, etc. Whether those extra strips are unpaid, I don't know. Would hope not, but then again I could see someone like Brandon Graham (who does a one-page strip in it) outright volunteering his time to promote creator-owned material.

Whether the magazine actually makes them money? Maybe not in sales, although I guess printing costs aren't super high and most of the content is essentially just already-existing solicits/advertisements. But they probably feel it's worth publishing it for the increased exposure of their products.

Sales are up slightly for Image books across the board recently, which could prove them right. Although I've also read it's mostly because of more foot traffic in comic shops thanks to the new DC stuff. Kinda hope these separate magazine don't split the market too much longterm though. If people no longer look at Previews because the 3 biggest U.S. publishers pull out of it... That could lessen the amount of eyeballs on small press stuff, but that's a different discussion.

[JFP]

Bor, I think we should drop it. We're boring each other and most likely other readers. We should agree to disagree. Fair enough.

One thing I'll say again, I do not wanna see the American comic book industry follow the European one: beautifully drawn, expensive, hardcover albums that are published every two years would definitely hurt the American comic book industry. Unfortunately, it seems that's the way things are going. The American comic book industry should be following the Japanese. A successful model is one to emulate not criticize.

Another thing to note is this 3-issue policy from Image is exactly the sort of thing fans and Image has been saying they're unable or unwilling to do for years. So there are questions:

1. Why are they implementing it now?
2. Along with making a magazine, this seems to be a change from their hands off creator-owned policy. Why the change in policy?
3. Since they are moving toward taking a greater hand in the books published by them, are they considering ditching the self-publishing model in whole or partially?

I can only see this policy having a benefit for Image. It squeezes out the weak artists who can't commit and leaves the ones that can. A book being abruptly cancelled or delayed does not help their company. By implementing this policy, it shows they are in need of artists who commit more than ever.

Another thing, TotalSnorefest makes a lot of good points. He points out that the Big 2 are essential for Image to have sales. Some like to say Image trades are making more than the Big 2. But they acknowledge that the sales wouldn't be there if the Big 2 were to fold. So I find it strange how people boast about the sales of indie comics being higher than before as a sign the market is strong (and not in decline), but they will acknowledge the sales are thanks to the Big 2 bringing in foot traffic, and the indies rely on the Big 2 more than ever.

I say if we can prove the numbers for indies would definitely be there without the Big 2, then we can use those numbers to support the claim the market is stronger than ever.

[Dark-Flux]

Solid figures are hard to come by for Euro comics due to the lack of a direct market but from what ive been able to scrape together for the French market...

Heres a report from Bleeding Cool from 2013 detailing some sales percentages;
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/...uite-a-bit-is/

Just over 5000 titles published in 2013, with 3800 being new material. 40% of that is manga, so thats a huge chunk surprisingly, with 39% being French-Belgian comics and 10% american comics.

Top 3 publishers by revenue were Dargaud, Glenet and Delcourt.

Latest Asterix sold just under 2.5 million copies
Blake & Mortimer Vol 22 : 445'000 copies.
Le Chat vol 18: 350'000
XIII Vol. 22 : 250'000
Blacksad Vol. 5 : 220'000
Thargol vol. 34 : 200'000
Boule et Bill vol. 34 :180'000
Jokes Toto vol. 10 : 180'000
Legendary Vol. 16 : 170'000
Nombrils Vol. 6 : 170'000
The Sisters Vol. 8 : 180'000
XIII Mystery Vol. 6 : 150'000
The Worlds of Thorgal: Youth Vol. 2 : 140'000
Les Profs Vol. 16 : 125'000

Top selling US comic is Walking Dead with two unspecified volumes hitting 200'000 and 100'000 copies.

Four unspecified Naruto vols sell 200'000 each.
Numerous One Piece/Fairy Tail volumes selling 90-170'000 each.

Various newstand editions of Marvel/DC titles selling 15'000-30'000 copies each.

Report claiming French comic market is worth just under $460 million in 2014;
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/b...ic-novels.html

Comics make up 12.5% of all published books in France.


An older post detailing stats from 2007;
http://comipress.com/article/2008/11/30/3705.html

Worth keeping in mind thats thats just France. No accounting for the entire euro-industry which seems even harder to find info for...

[Bor]

Bor, I think we should drop it. We're boring each other and most likely other readers. We should agree to disagree. Fair enough.

One thing I'll say again, I do not wanna see the American comic book industry follow the European one: beautifully drawn, expensive, hardcover albums that are published every two years would definitely hurt the American comic book industry. Unfortunately, it seems that's the way things are going. The American comic book industry should be following the Japanese. A successful model is one to emulate not criticize.

Another thing to note is this 3-issue policy from Image is exactly the sort of thing fans and Image has been saying they're unable or unwilling to do for years. So there are questions:

1. Why are they implementing it now?
2. Along with making a magazine, this seems to be a change from their hands off creator-owned policy. Why the change in policy?
3. Since they are moving toward taking a greater hand in the books published by them, are they considering ditching the self-publishing model in whole or partially?

I can only see this policy having a benefit for Image. It squeezes out the weak artists who can't commit and leaves the ones that can. A book being abruptly cancelled or delayed does not help their company. By implementing this policy, it shows they are in need of artists who commit more than ever.

Another thing, TotalSnorefest makes a lot of good points. He points out that the Big 2 are essential for Image to have sales. Some like to say Image trades are making more than the Big 2. But they acknowledge that the sales wouldn't be there if the Big 2 were to fold. So I find it strange how people boast about the sales of indie comics being higher than before as a sign the market is strong (and not in decline), but they will acknowledge the sales are thanks to the Big 2 bringing in foot traffic, and the indies rely on the Big 2 more than ever.

I say if we can prove the numbers for indies would definitely be there without the Big 2, then we can use those numbers to support the claim the market is stronger than ever.

I agree we should drop it, but I do want to say these last few things.
I agree that a 3-issue policy could be a good thing.
The reason people say the market is not in decline is because all numbers shows that is not true. You are right it is not as big as the Japanese market but it is not in decline. Likewise saying that the market is stronger then ever in sales is not true either, which I think most people here, myself included, have admitted to. The is a middle ground between strongest it has ever been and in decline which is were it is currently. If you want to discuss these Things with other posters I dont understand why you are unwilling to accept actual sales numbers. Not only that but those are just the numbers we do get, that does not take into account the growing market of digital comics. We can debate preferences and more but the numbers still stand and ignoring them does not really help the debate at all. While I agree it would be great if American comics sold in the numbers Japanese does its just not going to happen. The markets are just to different with stuff like majority lacking colour etc. Just because a model if succesfull some Places do not mean they will be in other places to. Personnaly I would enjoy it if more comics came out in a magazine like form, kinda like shonen jump or something like that, but its just not going to happen. Stuff like Dark horse presents Sells okay for what it is, but not nearly enough to support a Whole conversion to this formate either.

[JFP]

Solid figures are hard to come by for Euro comics due to the lack of a direct market but from what ive been able to scrape together for the French market...

Heres a report from Bleeding Cool from 2013 detailing some sales percentages;
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/01/...uite-a-bit-is/

Just over 5000 titles published in 2013, with 3800 being new material. 40% of that is manga, so thats a huge chunk surprisingly, with 39% being French-Belgian comics and 10% american comics.

Top 3 publishers by revenue were Dargaud, Glenet and Delcourt.

Latest Asterix sold just under 2.5 million copies
Blake & Mortimer Vol 22 : 445'000 copies.
Le Chat vol 18: 350'000
XIII Vol. 22 : 250'000
Blacksad Vol. 5 : 220'000
Thargol vol. 34 : 200'000
Boule et Bill vol. 34 :180'000
Jokes Toto vol. 10 : 180'000
Legendary Vol. 16 : 170'000
Nombrils Vol. 6 : 170'000
The Sisters Vol. 8 : 180'000
XIII Mystery Vol. 6 : 150'000
The Worlds of Thorgal: Youth Vol. 2 : 140'000
Les Profs Vol. 16 : 125'000

Top selling US comic is Walking Dead with two unspecified volumes hitting 200'000 and 100'000 copies.

Four unspecified Naruto vols sell 200'000 each.
Numerous One Piece/Fairy Tail volumes selling 90-170'000 each.

Various newstand editions of Marvel/DC titles selling 15'000-30'000 copies each.

Report claiming French comic market is worth just under $460 million in 2014;
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/b...ic-novels.html

Comics make up 12.5% of all published books in France.


An older post detailing stats from 2007;
http://comipress.com/article/2008/11/30/3705.html

Worth keeping in mind thats thats just France. No accounting for the entire euro-industry which seems even harder to find info for...

I wasn't asking for the Euro comic market. I was asking about the Euro comics. I wanted to know this: is that $450 million spent entirely on Euro comics? If it's not entirely from sales of Euro comics, maybe it's not as strong as you claim.

But you're response has enlightened me anyway. You've shown to me the Euro comic book industry (or at least the French one) is in far worse shape than I originally supposed. In the American comic book industry, two comic publishers are anchoring it. And these are from characters that are damn near a century old. That's sad. But the Euro comic industry is anchored by 2 comics. No, not two publishers. 2 comics: Tintin and Asterix. When you're industry is anchored by characters that are damn near a century old that is saaaaaaaaaad. In fact, it's actually abysmally pathetic.

The American comic industry: much of the sales come from foreign comics. If the two biggest domestic publisher folded, it would spell dire consequences for the industry. *shakes head*

The European comic industry: much of the sales come from foreign comics. If 2 biggest comics (yes, just 2 comics!) folded, it would spell dire consequences for the industry. *absolute facepalm*

It gets worse when you realize it takes the Euro and American comic industries combined a decade to get close to what the Japanese make in a year. Yet somehow people think these are strong industries?????

I agree we should drop it, but I do want to say these last few things.
I agree that a 3-issue policy could be a good thing.
The reason people say the market is not in decline is because all numbers shows that is not true. You are right it is not as big as the Japanese market but it is not in decline. Likewise saying that the market is stronger then ever in sales is not true either, which I think most people here, myself included, have admitted to. The is a middle ground between strongest it has ever been and in decline which is were it is currently. If you want to discuss these Things with other posters I dont understand why you are unwilling to accept actual sales numbers. Not only that but those are just the numbers we do get, that does not take into account the growing market of digital comics. We can debate preferences and more but the numbers still stand and ignoring them does not really help the debate at all. While I agree it would be great if American comics sold in the numbers Japanese does its just not going to happen. The markets are just to different with stuff like majority lacking colour etc. Just because a model if succesfull some Places do not mean they will be in other places to. Personnaly I would enjoy it if more comics came out in a magazine like form, kinda like shonen jump or something like that, but its just not going to happen. Stuff like Dark horse presents Sells okay for what it is, but not nearly enough to support a Whole conversion to this formate either.

Let's look at things this way: let's say you own a store in a shopping district with 10 other stores. 2 stores are anchoring the stores and bring in the customers due to their huge popularity. You say, "Look at the sales of my store. I'm doing well. I am in good shape. In fact, this entire shopping district is in good shape." If I asked you, "What would happen if those 2 big stores left? What would happen to your sales and the sales of the other stories?" You answer, "That would be disastrous. The shopping district would most likely fail. I don't think us 8 remaining stores are enough to hold this together." Well then, how can you say you're store is doing well and the shopping district is in good shape?

People say, "Look at comic book sales. Sales from the Big 2 and indies are doing well. The comic book industry is in good shape." I ask you, "What would happen if the Big 2 left? What would happen to the sales of the indies?" You answer, "That would be disastrous. The comic book industry would take a huge fall. I don't think the indies are enough to take the place of the Big 2." Then how can you say the American comic book industry is in good shape?

People say the industry is doing well according to the sales of the indies. But they have zero faith the sales would be there without the Big 2. Then how can the industry be doing well?

Regarding the Japanese comic industry, it is successful in other places. They are big sellers in both the American and Euro markets. If the Japanese can sell black and white comics successfully to the American and Euro markets, why can't the American and Euro markets do the same with their own comics? In fact, isn't the WD currently one of the highest selling black and white comics in the U.S. and Europe?

[Dark-Flux]

If Asterix and Tintin were to dissappear the european market would be fine because they dont use a direct market distribution system like the US.
Yes, the total revenue generated might go down, but every other book would still be selling its usual numbers and bring its publisher and creators the usual revenue because theres no direct distribution company like diamond to be toppled over, leaving ever other publisher in the s***.
The only ones loosing profits would be the publishers of Asterix and Tintin. For everybody else, its business as usual.

wasn't asking for the Euro comic market. I was asking about the Euro comics. I wanted to know this: is that $450 million spent entirely on Euro comics? If it's not entirely from sales of Euro comics, maybe it's not as strong as you claim.

Its as i said, 40% manga, 39% French-Belgian, 10% American, 11% other stuff.
But the brakedown is irrelevant since all that revenue goes to the european (or in this case the french) market regardless of the materials origin.
The only factor would be liscensing fees, or if say, Japan suddenly stopped producing manga for french publishers to liscense.

Whatever the case, the french comic market is generating more revenue and the average person spending more per head than the US despite being like, 5 times a smaller population.

[Bor]

Let's look at things this way: let's say you own a store in a shopping district with 10 other stores. 2 stores are anchoring the stores and bring in the customers due to their huge popularity. You say, "Look at the sales of my store. I'm doing well. I am in good shape. In fact, this entire shopping district is in good shape." If I asked you, "What would happen if those 2 big stores left? What would happen to your sales and the sales of the other stories?" You answer, "That would be disastrous. The shopping district would most likely fail. I don't think us 8 remaining stores are enough to hold this together." Well then, how can you say you're store is doing well and the shopping district is in good shape?

People say, "Look at comic book sales. Sales from the Big 2 and indies are doing well. The comic book industry is in good shape." I ask you, "What would happen if the Big 2 left? What would happen to the sales of the indies?" You answer, "That would be disastrous. The comic book industry would take a huge fall. I don't think the indies are enough to take the place of the Big 2." Then how can you say the American comic book industry is in good shape?

People say the industry is doing well according to the sales of the indies. But they have zero faith the sales would be there without the Big 2. Then how can the industry be doing well?

Regarding the Japanese comic industry, it is successful in other places. They are big sellers in both the American and Euro markets. If the Japanese can sell black and white comics successfully to the American and Euro markets, why can't the American and Euro markets do the same with their own comics? In fact, isn't the WD currently one of the highest selling black and white comics in the U.S. and Europe?

Yes if the big two disappeared it would hurt the market. Can you name me any industry where if 70% of what was offered suddenly disappered the market would be the same? This doenst make any sense at all. You want people to ignore actual evidence and numbers to speculate on your theory? Is that really all you got? The fact stands as this: The industry, despite your continued denial of facts, is not in decline. And your example do not really Work since American comics Sells in other Places like Europe to, often in bigger numbers then manga. The walking dead is ONE Black and White comic whereas there are several hundred each month that is not Black and White coming out in the US alone. If you actually dont think that a significant number of readers would drop comics if it lacked colour you are wrong. Even manga is trying to give new editions with colour, one of the most prominent being Dragonball, in some countries because there is a significant market that wants that.

[Bor]

If Asterix and Tintin were to dissappear the european market would be fine because they dont use a direct market distribution system like the US.
Yes, the total revenue generated might go down, but every other book would still be selling its usual numbers and bring its publisher and creators the usual revenue because theres no direct distribution company like diamond to be toppled over, leaving ever other publisher in the s***.
The only ones loosing profits would be the publishers of Asterix and Tintin. For everybody else, its business as usual.



Its as i said, 40% manga, 39% French-Belgian, 10% American, 11% other stuff.
But the brakedown is irrelevant since all that revenue goes to the european (or in this case the french) market regardless of the materials origin.
The only factor would be liscensing fees, or if say, Japan suddenly stopped producing manga for french publishers to liscense.

Whatever the case, the french comic market is generating more revenue and the average person spending more per head than the US despite being like, 5 times a smaller population.

It might not only be buisness as usual, it might mean a couple of those other comics would sell more because some readers would to get their fix other Places. Sure that is pure speculation but it could happen. Likely even if that happened the overall market might be Down but it could benifit some.

[Dark-Flux]

I think the idea is more that its not healthy to have 70% of your market owned by 2 companies on the first place. But then, thats not something that can be dictated. People buy what they want.
It wouldnt be a problem so much if it wernt for Diamond distributers being the sole remaining direct market distributer in the US. What with the newstand being an unknown factor, if Marvel and DC suddenly disappeared, Diamond would likly go with it.
Indies would follow in that theyd suddenly be a mad scramble to set up a replacement form of distribution which most likly just wouldnt occur in time.
The bookstore market of trades is in all likelihood, healthy enough to keep the companies afloat, but in the case of a publisher like Image, whose business model means creators only get paid on the back end, i doubt anybody would be able to stick around to generate continuing new content. If Image did survive it would probably be in a vastly different state operations wise.

Fortunatley, i doubt either of the Big 2 is just gonna up and vanish. What we'll hopefully see as time passes is a continued more equal distribution of market share.
Overall sales might decline potentially, but a more equal market share is "healthier" so to speak. At least in terms of longevity. Or ideally, like the french comic market, the newstand and bookstore markets take off.
But yeah, we arnt privy to US bookstore sales anyway so...

Oh and then theres digital. Which at last count accounted for 40% of the US industry, but whose sales arnt reported.
Really, any speculation on the health of the US comic industry at this point should be taken with a huuuuuge grain of salt because theres just so many unreported figures.

[Bor]

I think the idea is more that its not healthy to have 70% of your market owned by 2 companies on the first place. But then, thats not something that can be dictated. People buy what they want.
It wouldnt be a problem so much if it wernt for Diamond distributers being the sole remaining direct market distributer in the US. What with the newstand being an unknown factor, if Marvel and DC suddenly disappeared, Diamond would likly go with it.
Indies would follow in that theyd suddenly be a mad scramble to set up a replacement form of distribution which most likly just wouldnt occur in time.
The bookstore market of trades is in all likelihood, healthy enough to keep the companies afloat, but in the case of a publisher like Image, whose business model means creators only get paid on the back end, i doubt anybody would be able to stick around to generate continuing new content. If Image did survive it would probably be in a vastly different state operations wise.

Fortunatley, i doubt either of the Big 2 is just gonna up and vanish. What we'll hopefully see as time passes is a continued more equal distribution of market share.
Overall sales might decline potentially, but a more equal market share is "healthier" so to speak. At least in terms of longevity.

Fair enough but none of this changes that saying the market is in decline is simply not true. But no the big two are likely not going anywhere. Whereelse is the mouse and Warner Brothers going to get new ideas/material for there next big movie, videogame or line of action figures?

[JFP]

If Asterix and Tintin were to dissappear the european market would be fine because they dont use a direct market distribution system like the US.
Yes, the total revenue generated might go down, but every other book would still be selling its usual numbers and bring its publisher and creators the usual revenue because theres no direct distribution company like diamond to be toppled over, leaving ever other publisher in the s***.
The only ones loosing profits would be the publishers of Asterix and Tintin. For everybody else, its business as usual.



Its as i said, 40% manga, 39% French-Belgian, 10% American, 11% other stuff.
But the brakedown is irrelevant since all that revenue goes to the european (or in this case the french) market regardless of the materials origin.
The only factor would be liscensing fees, or if say, Japan suddenly stopped producing manga for french publishers to liscense.

Whatever the case, the french comic market is generating more revenue and the average person spending more per head than the US despite being like, 5 times a smaller population.

It isn't just about the direct market distribution, it's about the retailers. If Asterix and Tintin were to disappear would Euro comic bookstores make enough money from other Euro comics to stay afloat?

In addition, I was wondering how much of that $450 million is from sales Euro comics. Scroll up and you'll see I originally asked about the sales for the Euro comic industry, not the Euro comic market. It looks like at most Euro comic books sell only half of that $450 million ($225 million). But that's a guess. According to your sources, Franco-Belgian sell 39% and the other could mainly be Euro or it could be from other countries outside Europe beside the U.S. and Japan. And like I said, it gets worse when you realize that the $225 million (at most) they sell in France, around half of it comes from Asterix. So, without Asterix, the sales for Euro comics in France could be less than $100 million. Without Asterix, Euro comics would sell less than manga in France. In fact, Euro comics would likely sell less than half than manga in France.

All that says abysmal for the Euro comic industry (I said industry, not market) in France.

Yes if the big two disappeared it would hurt the market. Can you name me any industry where if 70% of what was offered suddenly disappered the market would be the same? This doenst make any sense at all. You want people to ignore actual evidence and numbers to speculate on your theory? Is that really all you got? The fact stands as this: The industry, despite your continued denial of facts, is not in decline. And your example do not really Work since American comics Sells in other Places like Europe to, often in bigger numbers then manga. The walking dead is ONE Black and White comic whereas there are several hundred each month that is not Black and White coming out in the US alone. If you actually dont think that a significant number of readers would drop comics if it lacked colour you are wrong. Even manga is trying to give new editions with colour, one of the most prominent being Dragonball, in some countries because there is a significant market that wants that.

People are saying the American comic book industry is doing well. But it's held up by 2 publishers. How is the industry doing well?

Look at it this way: you have a football team that scores is popular. 2 players are responsible for your team competitive. Without those 2 players, you know your team would fail miserably. How can you say your team is doing well if it's held together by only 2 players? Wouldn't you say that the 2 players are doing well and the team is a failure? A team that relies on 2 players to stay relevant is not a successful team.

You have an industry that is making numbers. 2 publishers are responsible for it making those numbers. Without those 2 publishers, you know the industry would fail miserably. How can you say the American comic book industry is doing well if it is held together by only 2 publishers? Wouldn't you say that the Big 2 are doing well and the rest of the publishers are failing? Publishers that rely on their competitors to keep them relevant are not successful publishers.

[JFP]

Oh and then theres digital. Which at last count accounted for 40% of the US industry, but whose sales arnt reported.
Really, any speculation on the health of the US comic industry at this point should be taken with a huuuuuge grain of salt because theres just so many unreported figures.

I have some questions and comments.

Comic bookstores are decreasing in the U.S. That's a fact. If the health of the comic book industry is good, then why are comic bookstores decreasing?

Digital comic bookstores have barely been increasing. Why is comixology dominating the market? If the sales were so high, wouldn't there be a boom in people running to create their own digital comics? Why so few challengers to comixology if the sales are supposedly high?

Digital comics becoming the norm in the U.S. and brick and mortar dying out are a bad thing for the U.S. comic industry. It kills the casual consumer. How many of us got into comics by casually walking into a store that sells comics and buying it on a whim? Lots of us comic book fans. If comics had been digital decades ago, many of us would never have become fans. Unless you're directly looking for comics, you can spend every day of your life searching the web and never come across anything comic book-related. Think about it. There are online radio dramas and online stageplays available only online. But no one finds these unless they are specifically looking for them. Same thing with comics. If comics become entirely online, you're hardly likely to stumble upon them unless you're specifically looking for them. Like online radio dramas and online stageplays, comic books being available only online would only be for the existing market. We think about how difficult it is to get new fans now but with digital only it will be much harder to gain new readers. The days of people getting into comics because they were walking by and the cover interested them enough to start flipping through it will be long gone.

In addition, many people got into comics because a friend, relative, or acquaintance let them read their comics they had lying around or outright gave us their old comics. With digital, you lose that aspect of people getting into comics.

Comic book covers were extremely important because publishers realized the most fascinating covers attracted new readers enough to stop and take a chance on them. I know damn well that's what happened with me. Seeing this issue of Batman made me become a lifelong Batman fan:

408-1.jpg

I remember the comic bookstore was at a local shopping center. I was a teen who was bored waiting for his mom to finish shopping. So I started walking through the mall. It had a comic bookstore. I wanted to go in and flip through the magazines. The magazines were at the right, while the comics were at the left. Even though I headed toward the right, something on the left caught my eye. It was an issue of Batman. I'd seen Batman in the Tim Burton movies, but never bothered with the comics. When I saw this comic, I was intrigued. It was wrapped in plastic and had a white board behind it. Without knowing the importance of it being wrapped and sealed, I opened it up and began flipping through it. I read it from beginning to end and loved every bit of it. So I decided to buy it. Looking back on it now, I'm amazed that this comic, which was 2 decades old (this was 1999), was being sold for only 50 cents. It was cheap, entertaining, and eyecatching. Plus, the store was a 10 minute bike ride from my house. If the comic had been available online for $1.99 (or more) on comixology where I can only read 5 sample pages (at most), I'm damn sure I wouldn't have been interested in it no matter how cool the cover. And I'm sure the same could be said for the rest of us. How many of us would have gotten into comics if they were only available digitally for $1.99 or more with only a 5 page sample?

[Bor]

It isn't just about the direct market distribution, it's about the retailers. If Asterix and Tintin were to disappear would Euro comic bookstores make enough money from other Euro comics to stay afloat?

In addition, I was wondering how much of that $450 million is from sales Euro comics. Scroll up and you'll see I originally asked about the sales for the Euro comic industry, not the Euro comic market. It looks like at most Euro comic books sell only half of that $450 million ($225 million). But that's a guess. According to your sources, Franco-Belgian sell 39% and the other could mainly be Euro or it could be from other countries outside Europe beside the U.S. and Japan. And like I said, it gets worse when you realize that the $225 million (at most) they sell in France, around half of it comes from Asterix. So, without Asterix, the sales for Euro comics in France could be less than $100 million. Without Asterix, Euro comics would sell less than manga in France. In fact, Euro comics would likely sell less than half than manga in France.

All that says abysmal for the Euro comic industry (I said industry, not market) in France.


People are saying the American comic book industry is doing well. But it's held up by 2 publishers. How is the industry doing well?

Look at it this way: you have a football team that scores is popular. 2 players are responsible for your team competitive. Without those 2 players, you know your team would fail miserably. How can you say your team is doing well if it's held together by only 2 players? Wouldn't you say that the 2 players are doing well and the team is a failure? A team that relies on 2 players to stay relevant is not a successful team.

You have an industry that is making numbers. 2 publishers are responsible for it making those numbers. Without those 2 publishers, you know the industry would fail miserably. How can you say the American comic book industry is doing well if it is held together by only 2 publishers? Wouldn't you say that the Big 2 are doing well and the rest of the publishers are failing? Publishers that rely on their competitors to keep them relevant are not successful publishers.

Sales are up, not just for the big two. Your example just doesnt work because this is a case of two players doing better then others yes, but the rest of the "team" is doing better too mostly. You said that the industry was in decline and that is factually wrong. I am not saying the industry is doing "great" but that it is certaintly not in decline. But none of this has really anything to do with the original point of the thread. You seem determined to ignore actual numbers and instead rely on nothing but speculation. I get that you want it to be more like the japanese model and that would increase sales, and you might be right. But I maintain that we will never know because I just dont think that will ever happen.