New Image Rule?

[Bor]

I have some questions and comments.

Comic bookstores are decreasing in the U.S. That's a fact. If the health of the comic book industry is good, then why are comic bookstores decreasing?

Digital comic bookstores have barely been increasing. Why is comixology dominating the market? If the sales were so high, wouldn't there be a boom in people running to create their own digital comics? Why so few challengers to comixology if the sales are supposedly high?

Digital comics becoming the norm in the U.S. and brick and mortar dying out are a bad thing for the U.S. comic industry. It kills the casual consumer. How many of us got into comics by casually walking into a store that sells comics and buying it on a whim? Lots of us comic book fans. If comics had been digital decades ago, many of us would never have become fans. Unless you're directly looking for comics, you can spend every day of your life searching the web and never come across anything comic book-related. Think about it. There are online radio dramas and online stageplays available only online. But no one finds these unless they are specifically looking for them. Same thing with comics. If comics become entirely online, you're hardly likely to stumble upon them unless you're specifically looking for them. Like online radio dramas and online stageplays, comic books being available only online would only be for the existing market. We think about how difficult it is to get new fans now but with digital only it will be much harder to gain new readers. The days of people getting into comics because they were walking by and the cover interested them enough to start flipping through it will be long gone.

In addition, many people got into comics because a friend, relative, or acquaintance let them read their comics they had lying around or outright gave us their old comics. With digital, you lose that aspect of people getting into comics.

Comic book covers were extremely important because publishers realized the most fascinating covers attracted new readers enough to stop and take a chance on them. I know damn well that's what happened with me. Seeing this issue of Batman made me become a lifelong Batman fan:

Attachment 39439

I remember the comic bookstore was at a local shopping center. I was a teen who was bored waiting for his mom to finish shopping. So I started walking through the mall. It had a comic bookstore. I wanted to go in and flip through the magazines. The magazines were at the right, while the comics were at the left. Even though I headed toward the right, something on the left caught my eye. It was an issue of Batman. I'd seen Batman in the Tim Burton movies, but never bothered with the comics. When I saw this comic, I was intrigued. It was wrapped in plastic and had a white board behind it. Without knowing the importance of it being wrapped and sealed, I opened it up and began flipping through it. I read it from beginning to end and loved every bit of it. So I decided to buy it. Looking back on it now, I'm amazed that this comic, which was 2 decades old (this was 1999), was being sold for only 50 cents. It was cheap, entertaining, and eyecatching. Plus, the store was a 10 minute bike ride from my house. If the comic had been available online for $1.99 (or more) on comixology where I can only read 5 sample pages (at most), I'm damn sure I wouldn't have been interested in it no matter how cool the cover. And I'm sure the same could be said for the rest of us. How many of us would have gotten into comics if they were only available digitally for $1.99 or more with only a 5 page sample?

The reason why the industry as a whole is not in decline even though the number of stores are is for the same many other types of stores are suffering: the internet. People getting their comics from places like online retailers and amazon is what it killing the physical stores and while I agree that sucks do you actually think that is going to change?

[JFP]

Sales are up, not just for the big two. Your example just doesnt work because this is a case of two players doing better then others yes, but the rest of the "team" is doing better too mostly. You said that the industry was in decline and that is factually wrong. I am not saying the industry is doing "great" but that it is certaintly not in decline. But none of this has really anything to do with the original point of the thread. You seem determined to ignore actual numbers and instead rely on nothing but speculation. I get that you want it to be more like the japanese model and that would increase sales, and you might be right. But I maintain that we will never know because I just dont think that will ever happen.

Let's look at the situation of the U.S. comic book industry:

--declining comic bookstores.
--Big 2 still dominate.
--the public doesn't respect comic books anymore than they have in the past.
--the main demographic is older males.
--Japan sells more comics domestically than the US does globally.
--150,000 books sold is considered a bestseller.
--if the Big 2 die out, it means dire consequences for the industry.
--creators are more willing to let their comic book die out and work for the Big 2 because they don't believe there's money in working on their own comic.

In the 80s and 90s, a single comic issue could sell more than 500,000 copies. In fact, many sold more than a million copies:
10. The Walking Dead (2003) No. 100 (384,000 copies)
9. The Amazing Spider-Man (1963) No. 583 (530,000 copies)
8. The Amazing Spider-Man (2014) No. 1 (533,000 copies)
7. Deathmate (Prologue, Blue, and Yellow) (1993-94) (700,000 copies each)
6. Fantastic Four (1998) No. 60 (752,000 copies)
5. Spawn (1992) No. 1 (1.7 Million copies)
4. Spider-Man (1990) No. 1 (2.5 Million copies)
3. Superman (1987) No. 75 (3 Million copies)
2. X-Force (1992) No. 1 (5 Million copies)
1. X-Men (1991) No. 1 (7.1 Million copies)

https://www.zapkapowcomics.com/top-1...ng-comic-books

Today, if a single issue sells more than 150,000 both digitally and in print, it is calls for rejoicing. As the years go by, it's becoming harder and harder for a single issue to reach 150,000 sold. But somehow, the industry isn't in decline?

The reason why the industry as a whole is not in decline even though the number of stores are is for the same many other types of stores are suffering: the internet. People getting their comics from places like online retailers and amazon is what it killing the physical stores and while I agree that sucks do you actually think that is going to change?

This overlooks the fact that comic bookstores were declining in large numbers before digital comics. Even in the 90s, comic bookstores were declining dramatically each year. Ask any old comic book reader in America and they'll tell you comic book stores were declining before the internet.

[Bor]

Let's look at the situation of the U.S. comic book industry:

--declining comic bookstores.
--Big 2 still dominate.
--the public doesn't respect comic books anymore than they have in the past.
--the main demographic is older males.
--Japan sells more comics domestically than the US does globally.
--150,000 books sold is considered a bestseller.
--if the Big 2 die out, it means dire consequences for the industry.
--creators are more willing to let their comic book die out and work for the Big 2 because they don't believe there's money in working on their own comic.

In the 80s and 90s, a single comic issue could sell more than 500,000 copies. In fact, many sold more than a million copies:
10. The Walking Dead (2003) No. 100 (384,000 copies)
9. The Amazing Spider-Man (1963) No. 583 (530,000 copies)
8. The Amazing Spider-Man (2014) No. 1 (533,000 copies)
7. Deathmate (Prologue, Blue, and Yellow) (1993-94) (700,000 copies each)
6. Fantastic Four (1998) No. 60 (752,000 copies)
5. Spawn (1992) No. 1 (1.7 Million copies)
4. Spider-Man (1990) No. 1 (2.5 Million copies)
3. Superman (1987) No. 75 (3 Million copies)
2. X-Force (1992) No. 1 (5 Million copies)
1. X-Men (1991) No. 1 (7.1 Million copies)

https://www.zapkapowcomics.com/top-1...ng-comic-books

Today, if a single issue sells more than 150,000 both digitally and in print, it is calls for rejoicing. As the years go by, it's becoming harder and harder for a single issue to reach 150,000 sold. But somehow, the industry isn't in decline?




This overlooks the fact that comic bookstores were declining in large numbers before digital comics. Even in the 90s, comic bookstores were declining dramatically each year. Ask any old comic book reader in America and they'll tell you comic book stores were declining before the internet.

The vast majority of your reasons are purely subjective and have nothing to do with whetter the industry is in decline or not. The big two dominates the market yes, but that in itself is not a sign og anything nor is how much the japanese market sells. Comics sales is what is important and proves you wrong it is really that simple. Ask any reader and they will also tell you that one of the reasons why there are fewer stores IS because of the internet and also one of the reasons being how many stores opened up and closed because of the speculate market in the 80s and 90s not to mention the introduction of other sources for entertainment.

Other then that I really dont see your reasoning for a lot of the titles you give. Some of those came out in the last few years and does not really Work as an example. On top of that many of the others came out at a time where the speculators market was at its highest and an artificial bubble was created which by its nature could never last. And if you want me to choose between that time and the cracy comics it created (like a million different versions of Liefeld books) and now, then I vastly prefer the titles coming out now.
So no éven if a title is not selling 150.000 comics regurly it does not mean the industry is in decline. All that matters is the total sales numbers. You like to use examples so I will give you one: If Mcdonalds starts selling less of their big Macs but their total sales still rises it does not mean that they are in decline just that the Big Mac is not as popular anymore. They are still making more Money. Could the industry decline in a few years? Sure it could, but that does not change that currently it is not.

If you want to discuss whether the current market is substaneable in the long run then that sounds interesting and I am certaintly up for that but we should proberly do that in another thread instead.

[Prisoner 6655321]

I don't mind reasonable delays but what REALLY bugs me is when a few issues of a book comes out, they don't finish the arc and then nothing. The Dying and the Dead comes to mind for me but there have been others. Waiting is one thing, being tricked into paying for an incomplete fraction of a story is another.

Seriously... whoever's fault it is for that book not coming out... You might be an ok person but _____ you for stealing $15 from everyone who supported your book for the first 3 issues.

[JFP]

Ok Bor, we'll leave that discussion for another thread.

I don't mind reasonable delays but what REALLY bugs me is when a few issues of a book comes out, they don't finish the arc and then nothing. The Dying and the Dead comes to mind for me but there have been others. Waiting is one thing, being tricked into paying for an incomplete fraction of a story is another.

Seriously... whoever's fault it is for that book not coming out... You might be an ok person but _____ you for stealing $15 from everyone who supported your book for the first 3 issues.

I don't give a damn what nobody says, you're one hundred percent correct.

Years ago, I had more than 1,500 comics and hundreds of titles. I remember rummaging through my collection one day and realizing out of the hundreds of titles, less than 1% were of stories that had been completed. I had a huge chunk of Image titles and none of them were complete. The majority had been abruptly cancelled and a small minority were still ongoing. I thought, "Damn. Hundreds of dollars down the drain for incomplete stories. I'm not going to enjoy rereading incomplete stories. Nor can I make any kind of profit off them. What a waste." And I threw the vast majority of them in the recycling bin.

That was back in the winter of 2011. By the end of the year, I had more or less drifted out of comics. I became an avid film lover because at least with films you're guaranteed to get a completed story. Between 2012 and the end of 2015, I only bought 10 trades. For the most part, I didn't even read American comics. I mainly read manga comics, and even then, it was mainly those with completed stories. Only last year, at the end of 2015, did I get back into comics. I am making more and so my local comic shops are making a profit.

Unfortunately, like you, I bought the Dying and the Dead, and several other comics that ended up delayed or cancelled (like Copperhead). I can't help but think to myself, "This **** again? Where a comic book is abruptly cancelled or abruptly delayed? Now I remember why I stopped reading comic books. I was tired of throwing my money down the drain to support a medium where the majority of stories are never completed. After all these years, you'd think this abruptly delayed and cancelled bullshit wouldn't be the norm anymore. You'd think the industry would clean up their act."

Serious question: is this bullshit with comics abruptly cancelled or delayed ever gonna stop being the norm, and start being something that only happens with a minority of comics?

[Bor]

Ok Bor, we'll leave that discussion for another thread.



I don't give a damn what nobody says, you're one hundred percent correct.

Years ago, I had more than 1,500 comics and hundreds of titles. I remember rummaging through my collection one day and realizing out of the hundreds of titles, less than 1% were of stories that had been completed. I had a huge chunk of Image titles and none of them were complete. The majority had been abruptly cancelled and a small minority were still ongoing. I thought, "Damn. Hundreds of dollars down the drain for incomplete stories. I'm not going to enjoy rereading incomplete stories. Nor can I make any kind of profit off them. What a waste." And I threw the vast majority of them in the recycling bin.

That was back in the winter of 2011. By the end of the year, I had more or less drifted out of comics. I became an avid film lover because at least with films you're guaranteed to get a completed story. Between 2012 and the end of 2015, I only bought 10 trades. For the most part, I didn't even read American comics. I mainly read manga comics, and even then, it was mainly those with completed stories. Only last year, at the end of 2015, did I get back into comics. I am making more and so my local comic shops are making a profit.

Unfortunately, like you, I bought the Dying and the Dead, and several other comics that ended up delayed or cancelled (like Copperhead). I can't help but think to myself, "This **** again? Where a comic book is abruptly cancelled or abruptly delayed? Now I remember why I stopped reading comic books. I was tired of throwing my money down the drain to support a medium where the majority of stories are never completed. After all these years, you'd think this abruptly delayed and cancelled bullshit wouldn't be the norm anymore. You'd think the industry would clean up their act."

Serious question: is this bullshit with comics abruptly cancelled or delayed ever gonna stop being the norm, and start being something that only happens with a minority of comics?

I know we are going in circles here but I am just going to say it again: The numbers doent support that yours is the normal experience.

[JFP]

Bor, your whole argument is that "customers pay per issue. When the customer buys a comic, he is paying per issue. So if a creator decides to abruptly cancel a series, the customer can't complain because he paid already paid for the issues. He didn't pay for the whole series, he paid per issue. So the business transaction is final." Your argument is garbage for two simple reasons.

First, a comic book reader would never start paying for a comic book he knew was gonna be cancelled. Name a comic book reader who starts paying for a comic he knows is gonna be abruptly cancelled. You can't find one. You'd have an easier time finding Sasquatch than you would finding a comic fan who starts paying for a comic he knows will be abruptly cancelled. Thus, a comic book creator is 100% aware that people are only paying to read his comics because they believe he'll finish it. As a result, if a creator abruptly cancels his series, he knows damn well he is giving readers exactly what they do not want: an unfinished series. He knows damn well they wouldn't have bought his series if he was gonna cancel it. He knows damn well it wasn't about paying per issue and that's final. It was about paying for a completed story they can enjoy and/or sell later on.

Secondly, the only reason why we pay per issue is because creators make it apparent that paying his monthly comic is important for him. We could wait for the trade (hell, we could pirate it online), but we're paying for it because we want to help him out on his expenses. So we're doing it because we want to help him out. We don't have to pay for his monthly at all. Simple as that.

This whole thing regarding creators being able to finish their monthly comic shouldn't be an argument we should be having, honestly. Most of that is because the creators were unrealistic.

First question: shouldn't creators know ahead of time whether or not the comic book will be enough to sustain them? These creators start books, find out it's not enough to pay their bills, then drop it for other work. Why the hell didn't the factor in the possibility it most likely not gonna make them money beforehand? Why do they wait until after they start the book, get a few issues out there, and then say, "Duuuuh, this comic book isn't bringing me enough money to sustain my lifestyle. So I'll quit it to take on other work." You should have estimated the possibility of your comic book not being enough to sustain you beforehand, numb nuts.

Second question: why do these creators only figure only after they start the monthly comic that they aren't able to keep up with a monthly schedule? All artists know how fast they can put out a comic page. Even amateur artists are well aware of their work pace. So if an artist says, "This monthly schedule is harder for me than I thought. I thought I could keep up with it but I'm not fast enough to do so." That's complete and total bullsheet. You knew damn well you weren't able to keep up with it. You just thought you could put out a comic, it would make a lot in the beginning and you'd be able to make big bank on the first few issues. When that didn't happen, you wormed your way out of it with pathetic excuses.

A lot of this stuff regarding comic book artists is bullshit. Having dealt with them, I am not gullible enough to believe their lies. For instance, a comic artist says, "It would be nice if I could have twelve months worth done before I start publishing. But I can't. Who is gonna pay me while I'm making those 12 issues?" Why are other artists capable of putting their art out their without pay but comic book artists can't? Why can a music artist put out music with no pay? Why can a filmmaker make a film with no pay? Why can stage playwrights put out their stories with no pay? Why can painters create paintings with no pay? All those other artists are capable of producing their art with no pay. But a comic artist can't put out 2 or 3 issues with no pay? Gimme a break.

Artists complain about their pay being low. But that's because of supply and demand.

Supply: the number of illustrators is increasing yearly. American illustrators no longer have to only compete for work from artists nationally. With the internet and the spread of English, they now have to compete with people globally. Everywhere from Paraguay to Lithuania to Sri Lanka to Papau New Guinea there are illustrators who are selling their services online. And some of them go cheap. I'm talking about $5 per page cheap.

I got this illustration of Two-Face in a Batman costume from an artist in Lithuania for 5 bucks.


I got this Jason Voorhees pic from an artist in Japan for $5 too.


So more and more, good illustrators are a dime a dozen.

Demand: the demand is decreasing. Magazines and newspapers are decreasing and the ones remaining are cutting back on illustrators. Book covers are relying less and less on illustrators and more and more on graphic designers with little or no illustration skills. Illustrators have to compete more and more with web designers with little or no illustration skills for work.

So the supply of illustrators is increasing but the demand is decreasing. So if an illustrator manages to get his comic book published, he's damn lucky. You'd think he be damn happy to be able to do something most illustrators will never be able to do. Most illustrators will never be able to make money off their skills for any period of time. So you'd think they'd be happy to be so lucky. But nope. It's too much work for them. So they get work for someone else and gripe about the fact that they have to use their skills to make someone else's dream come true.

If they make a comic book and they want to stop, the least they can do is wrap up the story. They may be losing money on the story. But they are gaining good will of the other people involved. The publisher, distributor, retailer, and reader are all involved in it. By just abruptly cancelling it, they are screwing over their future relations with these people. Because the publisher, distributor, retailer, and reader are gonna be reluctant to want to deal with anything he has to offer in the future. By only thinking about your money now, you're only thinking in terms of short-term goals. The long-term goals are to solidify a positive relationship with the publisher, distributor, retailer, and reader. If your short-term goals of not being paid money now are not being met, then that's your fault for not estimating this stuff beforehand.

[BCya]

Apparently, to help cut down on all the delays, Image is instituting a new policy that creators must have three completed issues before they'll solicit a new book. I think this is smart, but I wonder if it's just for new books or if ones that take time off between arcs are susceptible to this same rule. I don't know much about it because Rob Liefeld mentioned it in passing during his new Youngblood reveal on Nerdy Pop.

If this is true, Rob Liefeld may never work in this industry again!

And I still like his stuff. I loved Hawk and Dove when it first came out, though they may have been his best work. How was he so popular and then so reviled? I guess that happens with singers and actors, too.

[Dark-Flux]

Bor, your whole argument is that "customers pay per issue. When the customer buys a comic, he is paying per issue. So if a creator decides to abruptly cancel a series, the customer can't complain because he paid already paid for the issues. He didn't pay for the whole series, he paid per issue. So the business transaction is final." Your argument is garbage for two simple reasons.

First, a comic book reader would never start paying for a comic book he knew was gonna be cancelled. Name a comic book reader who starts paying for a comic he knows is gonna be abruptly cancelled. You can't find one. You'd have an easier time finding Sasquatch than you would finding a comic fan who starts paying for a comic he knows will be abruptly cancelled. Thus, a comic book creator is 100% aware that people are only paying to read his comics because they believe he'll finish it. As a result, if a creator abruptly cancels his series, he knows damn well he is giving readers exactly what they do not want: an unfinished series. He knows damn well they wouldn't have bought his series if he was gonna cancel it. He knows damn well it wasn't about paying per issue and that's final. It was about paying for a completed story they can enjoy and/or sell later on.

Irrelevant.
Buying into a series because you think its gonna finish is an assumption on the readers part. No contract or agreement was made that the series would reach its conclusion if you buy the first issue. The creators probably didnt go in with the idea of cancelling the book early, but **** happens. Its the reality of the situation.

Secondly, the only reason why we pay per issue is because creators make it apparent that paying his monthly comic is important for him. We could wait for the trade (hell, we could pirate it online), but we're paying for it because we want to help him out on his expenses. So we're doing it because we want to help him out. We don't have to pay for his monthly at all. Simple as that.

Still gives no guarantee of a completed series. If the sales arnt there, it'll be cancelled because the team simply cant afford to put it out.
If its cancelled simply cos the creator gets bored, then yeah its annoying and bad form on the creators part. But again, I wasnt promised anything beyond what I'd paid for.
If its delayed because of some unforeseen circumstance (lets say Danger Club being delayed almost two years because the artists kids were involved in an accident) then thats fine. Im a person capable of empathy. I realize that some things come before work.

This whole thing regarding creators being able to finish their monthly comic shouldn't be an argument we should be having, honestly. Most of that is because the creators were unrealistic.

First question: shouldn't creators know ahead of time whether or not the comic book will be enough to sustain them? These creators start books, find out it's not enough to pay their bills, then drop it for other work. Why the hell didn't the factor in the possibility it most likely not gonna make them money beforehand? Why do they wait until after they start the book, get a few issues out there, and then say, "Duuuuh, this comic book isn't bringing me enough money to sustain my lifestyle. So I'll quit it to take on other work." You should have estimated the possibility of your comic book not being enough to sustain you beforehand, numb nuts.

They do, but they dont dictate readers spending habits.
They know they'll need to sell X amount of copies to keep going. If they sell less than that, games over. Im sure every creator would love to sell Walking Dead numbers. But if it were that easy everybody would be doing it.

Second question: why do these creators only figure only after they start the monthly comic that they aren't able to keep up with a monthly schedule? All artists know how fast they can put out a comic page. Even amateur artists are well aware of their work pace. So if an artist says, "This monthly schedule is harder for me than I thought. I thought I could keep up with it but I'm not fast enough to do so." That's complete and total bullsheet. You knew damn well you weren't able to keep up with it. You just thought you could put out a comic, it would make a lot in the beginning and you'd be able to make big bank on the first few issues. When that didn't happen, you wormed your way out of it with pathetic excuses.

Youre assuming every book is a monthly, when Image very rarely describes it as so. Its very common to take breaks between arcs and thats usually the intended plan from the off.
Youre also assuming that if an artist fails to hit a self imposed deadline its because theyre slow or lazy, as opposed to any number of unforeseen circumstances coming up.

A lot of this stuff regarding comic book artists is bullshit. Having dealt with them, I am not gullible enough to believe their lies. For instance, a comic artist says, "It would be nice if I could have twelve months worth done before I start publishing. But I can't. Who is gonna pay me while I'm making those 12 issues?" Why are other artists capable of putting their art out their without pay but comic book artists can't? Why can a music artist put out music with no pay? Why can a filmmaker make a film with no pay? Why can stage playwrights put out their stories with no pay? Why can painters create paintings with no pay? All those other artists are capable of producing their art with no pay. But a comic artist can't put out 2 or 3 issues with no pay? Gimme a break.

They do. For every single series Image puts out. They get paid on the back end. They very likely wont see payment for the art produced for #1 until after the first arc is wrapped. 5-6 issues.

Artists complain about their pay being low. But that's because of supply and demand.

Show me one. Nobody gets into comics for the money.
They need to make enough to get by, like anybody else. The vast majority of creators in comics have two jobs to supplement their income.

Supply: the number of illustrators is increasing yearly. American illustrators no longer have to only compete for work from artists nationally. With the internet and the spread of English, they now have to compete with people globally. Everywhere from Paraguay to Lithuania to Sri Lanka to Papau New Guinea there are illustrators who are selling their services online. And some of them go cheap. I'm talking about $5 per page cheap.

I got this illustration of Two-Face in a Batman costume from an artist in Lithuania for 5 bucks.


I got this Jason Voorhees pic from an artist in Japan for $5 too.


So more and more, good illustrators are a dime a dozen.

Neither of those artists are good enough to be hired by bigger publishers. At least based on those pinups. Publishers hire based on strength of sequentials, which is a whole other discipline.
They also have to be paid a minimum page rate by the publisher. So how cheap they are willing to work for is irrelevant to a point.

Demand: the demand is decreasing. Magazines and newspapers are decreasing and the ones remaining are cutting back on illustrators. Book covers are relying less and less on illustrators and more and more on graphic designers with little or no illustration skills. Illustrators have to compete more and more with web designers with little or no illustration skills for work.

So the supply of illustrators is increasing but the demand is decreasing. So if an illustrator manages to get his comic book published, he's damn lucky. You'd think he be damn happy to be able to do something most illustrators will never be able to do. Most illustrators will never be able to make money off their skills for any period of time. So you'd think they'd be happy to be so lucky. But nope. It's too much work for them. So they get work for someone else and gripe about the fact that they have to use their skills to make someone else's dream come true.

Happiness doesnt pay bills.

If they make a comic book and they want to stop, the least they can do is wrap up the story. They may be losing money on the story. But they are gaining good will of the other people involved. The publisher, distributor, retailer, and reader are all involved in it. By just abruptly cancelling it, they are screwing over their future relations with these people. Because the publisher, distributor, retailer, and reader are gonna be reluctant to want to deal with anything he has to offer in the future. By only thinking about your money now, you're only thinking in terms of short-term goals. The long-term goals are to solidify a positive relationship with the publisher, distributor, retailer, and reader. If your short-term goals of not being paid money now are not being met, then that's your fault for not estimating this stuff beforehand.

And potentially souring their name with publishers and readers is the price they pay for delays or cancellations.
The money is their business. Its easy for you to say "they may be losing money" - but do it anyway, but thats not your call. You have no idea about creators circumstances or the work they put in. They cant spend weeks at a drawing table if they cant afford groceries, or they're being evicted. They'll go to where they can get money - ie. work for hire projects, more shifts at their second job. Their health, family and well-being matters more than if you or I get the next issue of our funny-book.

[Bor]

[QUOTE=JFP;2267727]Bor, your whole argument is that "customers pay per issue. When the customer buys a comic, he is paying per issue. So if a creator decides to abruptly cancel a series, the customer can't complain because he paid already paid for the issues. He didn't pay for the whole series, he paid per issue. So the business transaction is final." Your argument is garbage for two simple reasons.


Just because you either dont understand or dont like how a buissness transaction Works that does not mean my argument is garbage no. It just Means you disagree with my opinion, which unfortunately for you is based on actual law and how it Works legally and in practice.
First, a comic book reader would never start paying for a comic book he knew was gonna be cancelled. Name a comic book reader who starts paying for a comic he knows is gonna be abruptly cancelled. You can't find one. You'd have an easier time finding Sasquatch than you would finding a comic fan who starts paying for a comic he knows will be abruptly cancelled. Thus, a comic book creator is 100% aware that people are only paying to read his comics because they believe he'll finish it. As a result, if a creator abruptly cancels his series, he knows damn well he is giving readers exactly what they do not want: an unfinished series. He knows damn well they wouldn't have bought his series if he was gonna cancel it. He knows damn well it wasn't about paying per issue and that's final. It was about paying for a completed story they can enjoy and/or sell later on.
I already adressed this but I will repeat myself: If you start reading a series with the 100 % expectation that it is going to deliver a full story before it ends bacause of various reasons then that is on you. You can never do that you can only go in with the hope that it will finish. You are right that if you know its not going to finish then people would likely not start a series, so if the writer/artist starts a new series and plans to NOT finish it then that is pretty bad. But how often do you think that actually happens?
Secondly, the only reason why we pay per issue is because creators make it apparent that paying his monthly comic is important for him. We could wait for the trade (hell, we could pirate it online), but we're paying for it because we want to help him out on his expenses. So we're doing it because we want to help him out. We don't have to pay for his monthly at all. Simple as that.

That is correct but just because you are buying a monthly comics does not mean you are doing it for free, you get what you payed for: That monthly book.

This whole thing regarding creators being able to finish their monthly comic shouldn't be an argument we should be having, honestly. Most of that is because the creators were unrealistic.

First question: shouldn't creators know ahead of time whether or not the comic book will be enough to sustain them? These creators start books, find out it's not enough to pay their bills, then drop it for other work. Why the hell didn't the factor in the possibility it most likely not gonna make them money beforehand? Why do they wait until after they start the book, get a few issues out there, and then say, "Duuuuh, this comic book isn't bringing me enough money to sustain my lifestyle. So I'll quit it to take on other work." You should have estimated the possibility of your comic book not being enough to sustain you beforehand, numb nuts.
So you expect the creators to predict the future? Okay then
Second question: why do these creators only figure only after they start the monthly comic that they aren't able to keep up with a monthly schedule? All artists know how fast they can put out a comic page. Even amateur artists are well aware of their work pace. So if an artist says, "This monthly schedule is harder for me than I thought. I thought I could keep up with it but I'm not fast enough to do so." That's complete and total bullsheet. You knew damn well you weren't able to keep up with it. You just thought you could put out a comic, it would make a lot in the beginning and you'd be able to make big bank on the first few issues. When that didn't happen, you wormed your way out of it with pathetic excuses.
See most of this is just wrong. First of all let us for this argument just disregar the artists who haver never tried it before, since they are not really interesting in this. For various reasons Things happens that changes peoples Lifes, like having a Family, and how much time they can spent on Work stuff

A lot of this stuff regarding comic book artists is bullshit. Having dealt with them, I am not gullible enough to believe their lies. For instance, a comic artist says, "It would be nice if I could have twelve months worth done before I start publishing. But I can't. Who is gonna pay me while I'm making those 12 issues?" Why are other artists capable of putting their art out their without pay but comic book artists can't? Why can a music artist put out music with no pay? Why can a filmmaker make a film with no pay? Why can stage playwrights put out their stories with no pay? Why can painters create paintings with no pay? All those other artists are capable of producing their art with no pay. But a comic artist can't put out 2 or 3 issues with no pay? Gimme a break.
Going by your apparent lack of knowlegde of anything about the comic industry and your denial of actual facts and numbers I see no reason to think you have had any actual interactions with artists. Not only that but this above qoute is pretty much fan entitlement at its finist.
Artists complain about their pay being low. But that's because of supply and demand.
And that pay being low is why they have to take jobs from the big two. thanks for finally understanding that
Supply: the number of illustrators is increasing yearly. American illustrators no longer have to only compete for work from artists nationally. With the internet and the spread of English, they now have to compete with people globally. Everywhere from Paraguay to Lithuania to Sri Lanka to Papau New Guinea there are illustrators who are selling their services online. And some of them go cheap. I'm talking about $5 per page cheap.

QUOTE]

[Bor]

I got this illustration of Two-Face in a Batman costume from an artist in Lithuania for 5 bucks.


I got this Jason Voorhees pic from an artist in Japan for $5 too.


So more and more, good illustrators are a dime a dozen.

Demand: the demand is decreasing. Magazines and newspapers are decreasing and the ones remaining are cutting back on illustrators. Book covers are relying less and less on illustrators and more and more on graphic designers with little or no illustration skills. Illustrators have to compete more and more with web designers with little or no illustration skills for work.

So the supply of illustrators is increasing but the demand is decreasing. So if an illustrator manages to get his comic book published, he's damn lucky. You'd think he be damn happy to be able to do something most illustrators will never be able to do. Most illustrators will never be able to make money off their skills for any period of time. So you'd think they'd be happy to be so lucky. But nope. It's too much work for them. So they get work for someone else and gripe about the fact that they have to use their skills to make someone else's dream come true.

If they make a comic book and they want to stop, the least they can do is wrap up the story. They may be losing money on the story. But they are gaining good will of the other people involved. The publisher, distributor, retailer, and reader are all involved in it. By just abruptly cancelling it, they are screwing over their future relations with these people. Because the publisher, distributor, retailer, and reader are gonna be reluctant to want to deal with anything he has to offer in the future. By only thinking about your money now, you're only thinking in terms of short-term goals. The long-term goals are to solidify a positive relationship with the publisher, distributor, retailer, and reader. If your short-term goals of not being paid money now are not being met, then that's your fault for not estimating this stuff beforehand.

If you think those two are examples the comic industry should follow then I will just say I disagree. I love Jason and Friday the 13th as a Whole, but a series put out like FReddy vs Jason Vs Ash looks A LOT better then those two in my opinion and the 5 $ you payed is likely as high as I would ever give for a comic of that quality. Not to mention that in a Whole comics those two would only be a single panel each and not the 20+ pages worth that would be necesarry to produce a actual comic.

Look JFP as I have already said I get your opinion, but that is just that, that is only your opinion. My viewpoint is based on actual contractional law and how it Works. You are saying there should be some clause that says there should be more then that, but there isnt. If you go in reading a book 100% expecting it to finish then that is your fault. That doesnt mean you can be irratated on the creators involved but all that gives you is the option to not support them in the future. No where does it say that when a creator starts a series they have to finish it. It is really that simple. Should they? Yes off course because its nice to the fans and it makes the best buissness sense if you expect to Work in the industry again in the future, but if you are not able to do it then that is just how it is. Sometimes when a series gets cancelled it is not on the creator but the Publisher deciding it is not woth it anymore and they dont even get a say. Just because a creator does a bad job in estimating their ability to the job or readers interest in the series does not mean you as a reader gets to decide they have to keep on publishing a series because you think you should get it just because a previous issue. Feeling they should is entitlement and I have no problem calling people who have that opinion out on it. That does not mean you cant get angry on them, it just Means the only thing you have the right to do in that situation is to not support them in the future and I fully support that. But none of that Means a creator has to finish a series, except if they want you to support them in the future. Even then some creator, Like Liefeld, have proven that even though they disapoint readers like that they are still able to get Work in the future, so even that is no guantee nor does it give you any special rights to demand a creator finish a series just because readers want them to.

[JFP]

Irrelevant.
Buying into a series because you think its gonna finish is an assumption on the readers part. No contract or agreement was made that the series would reach its conclusion if you buy the first issue. The creators probably didnt go in with the idea of cancelling the book early, but **** happens. Its the reality of the situation.Still gives no guarantee of a completed series. If the sales arnt there, it'll be cancelled because the team simply cant afford to put it out.
If its cancelled simply cos the creator gets bored, then yeah its annoying and bad form on the creators part. But again, I wasnt promised anything beyond what I'd paid for.

I hire a painter. I pay him per hour. After 2 or 3 hours, he decides, "I don't wanna finish this because this is not gonna pay me the money I want. I know there's 9 more hours needed to finish. But I'm gonna quit anyway." I tell him, "I hired you to paint all the walls." "Yeah, but you only paid per hour. Since I've been paid for each of the 2-3 hours I've worked. Our transaction here is completed. So our business is done here." I'm gonna say, "You know damn well I didn't hire you for only 2-3 hours worth of work. I hired you to complete the work. And you know damn well I wouldn't have paid for your services if I knew you were gonna bail without finishing the work. I would have spent the money on a dude who can actually finish the job." He says, "This is not paying me enough money. You're just gonna have to deal with having your work unfinished." I'm gonna say, "This is not paying you enough money? Shouldn't you have figured this **** out before you started work?" He says, "See ya." And I'm left wasting money on a dude who can't finish his work.

I pay a for a comic. I pay per issue. After 2 or 3 issues, he decides, "I don't wanna finish this because this is not gonna pay me the money I want. I know there's 9 more issues needed to be finished. But I'm gonna quit anyway." I tell him, "I paid for your comic because I thought you would finish the story." "Yeah, but you only paid per issue. Since I've been paid for each of the 2-3 issues I've put out. Our transaction here is completed. So our business is done here." I'm gonna say, "You know damn well I didn't pay for an unfinished comic with only 2 or 3 issues. I paid your comic because I thought you were gonna give me a completed story. And you know damn well I wouldn't have paid for your comic if I knew you were gonna bail without finishing the story. I would have spent the money on a dude who can actually finish a comic he started." He says, "This is not paying me enough money. You're just gonna have to deal with having your comic unfinished." I'm gonna say, "This is not paying you enough money? Shouldn't you have figured this **** out before you started the comic?" He says, "See ya." And I'm left wasting money on a dude who can't finish his work.

They do, but they dont dictate readers spending habits.
They know they'll need to sell X amount of copies to keep going. If they sell less than that, games over. Im sure every creator would love to sell Walking Dead numbers. But if it were that easy everybody would be doing it.

Once again, they should have known this? What's so hard about planning ahead and saying, "There's a good chance this comic won't make me the money I want. So I should have a way to finish the story quickly if that happens."?

Youre assuming every book is a monthly, when Image very rarely describes it as so. Its very common to take breaks between arcs and thats usually the intended plan from the off.

I'm only talking about the books that are monthly.

Youre also assuming that if an artist fails to hit a self imposed deadline its because theyre slow or lazy, as opposed to any number of unforeseen circumstances coming up.

Have you ever talked to artists about their work habits? Have you ever talked to artists at an art school like School of the Art Institute of Chicago or been on websites for artists like conceptart forum or smackjeeves forum? One of the biggest things artists talk about on a casual basis is procrastination. Talking to artists, you'll realize the majority of the men procrastinate. When they are just in a casual setting, they will be candid about it. When it's related to business, they'll insist they are fast and get work on time. No artist is gonna say he's big on procrastination. It is not in his best interest.

Your favorite creator won't tell you he quit his book because he was procrastinating. He will lose fans that way. So he'll jump in another direction and give you the whole sob story about how his family is in dire straits and they are scraping to get by. By lying to you about that, he gains your sympathy. Really guy, talk to artists. You will find they are a lazy bunch.

They do. For every single series Image puts out. They get paid on the back end. They very likely wont see payment for the art produced for #1 until after the first arc is wrapped. 5-6 issues.

No, we're talking about those artists who say they won't work make 3 or more issues before publishing because "nobody is paying me while I make my story." As I asked before, how come musicians, filmmakers, painters, playwrights, and other artists can make work without getting paid but comic book artists feel they're so special they can't?

Show me one. Nobody gets into comics for the money.

If they don't get into comics for the money, then why are they quitting their comic due to lack of money? Why do they complain they don't wanna make sure they have 3 or more issues done before publishing because they won't get paid for their work? Why are they more interested in selling their art for work they don't believe in rather than using their art for something they do believe in, even if it's for free?

Neither of those artists are good enough to be hired by bigger publishers. At least based on those pinups. Publishers hire based on strength of sequentials, which is a whole other discipline.

Your opinion. My opinion: their art is good enough for comic books. If publishers are big in sequentials, why is Rob Liefeld one of the most popular creators in America? Why does he continue to get work? Are you gonna say his art is miles ahead of the art of the artists above?

They also have to be paid a minimum page rate by the publisher. So how cheap they are willing to work for is irrelevant to a point.

Actually, they don't have to be paid a minimum page rate by the publisher. It's just a normal practice. I don't think there's a law that states publishers have to pay creators per page. Publishers can actually only pay them once the work is completed.

In any case, my point was the supply of artists is increasing, while the demand is decreasing. To be able to make any money off illustration work is difficult because of this. They are lucky to get the money they are getting.

Happiness doesnt pay bills.

Making the publisher, distributor, retailer, and customer happy creates a positive relationship that will make a creator's future bills look bright because they trust his ability to finish the work. Look at Rob Liefeld. Do you think it's a coincidence Image is instituting this new 3 issue policy now that Rob is trying to publish a new comic? Do you think Diamond is interested in his work? Do you think retailers are interested in his work? How many fans have given up on him because of his inability to finish a comic?

Like most creators, he only thinks of the short-term goal: I need to pay bills now. He didn't think about the long-term goals: making the publisher, distributor, retailer, and customer happy so they'll trust his ability to make a comic, therefore, enabling him to have a fanbase that will allow him to pay bills in the future.

And potentially souring their name with publishers and readers is the price they pay for delays or cancellations.

That's what I'm saying. What do they gain by souring their name with publisher, the distributor, retailers, and readers?

The money is their business. Its easy for you to say "they may be losing money" - but do it anyway, but thats not your call. You have no idea about creators circumstances or the work they put in. They cant spend weeks at a drawing table if they cant afford groceries, or they're being evicted. They'll go to where they can get money - ie. work for hire projects, more shifts at their second job. Their health, family and well-being matters more than if you or I get the next issue of our funny-book.

As I said before, I don't believe this ****. I do believe some are in dire circumstances, and I sympathize. But, as I said before, after talking with artists and hearing their glaring and eye-raising admittance of procrastination, I just can't believe the majority of them are in dire circumstances. I do believe most are procrastinators. I also believe they won't tell you they didn't finish their comic because of procrastination. It is not in their best interest to tell you the truth. They do not gain anything. In fact, they have much to lose. So giving out a sob story to the readers about how their family is scraping by is in their best interest. As I stressed before, talk to illustrators, you'll hear the most candid and eye-raising stories of their laziness and procrastination.

[JFP]

Bor, business transactions aren't based solely on business law. They are based mainly on human relationships.

A guy owns a restaurant. But he acts like a total jerk to customers. As a result, customers don't come back and he has to shut down due to lack of business. Based on contractual law, he gave them what they paid for: food. So the transaction was completed. But human relationships don't work solely according to business law. They didn't go solely for food; they also came for a satisfying atmosphere and service. Are you gonna say he's a smart businessman who knows how to satisfy customers?

A guy starts a comic. But he quits after 2 or 3 issues. As a result, the publisher, distributor, retailers, and readers are gonna be reluctant to handle any of his future work. Based on contract law, he game them what they paid for: those 2 or 3 issues. So the transaction was completed. But human relationships don't work solely according to business law. Those people involved weren't in it solely per issue; they also wanted a completed story. Are you gonna say he's a smart creator who knows how to satisfy his publisher, distributor, retailers, and readers?

[Bor]

Bor, business transactions aren't based solely on business law. They are based mainly on human relationships.

A guy owns a restaurant. But he acts like a total jerk to customers. As a result, customers don't come back and he has to shut down due to lack of business. Based on contractual law, he gave them what they paid for: food. So the transaction was completed. But human relationships don't work solely according to business law. They didn't go solely for food; they also came for a satisfying atmosphere and service. Are you gonna say he's a smart businessman who knows how to satisfy customers?

A guy starts a comic. But he quits after 2 or 3 issues. As a result, the publisher, distributor, retailers, and readers are gonna be reluctant to handle any of his future work. Based on contract law, he game them what they paid for: those 2 or 3 issues. So the transaction was completed. But human relationships don't work solely according to business law. Those people involved weren't in it solely per issue; they also wanted a completed story. Are you gonna say he's a smart creator who knows how to satisfy his publisher, distributor, retailers, and readers?

Forgive me if I dont take any "advice" from the guy who feels he has the right to a comicbook over peopels actual lives and feels the need the curse at people for pointing out numbers while he ignores them at the same time because it does not fit his agenda. None of your examples Work. Not to mention seems to disregard actual Laws because he doenst like them. Whether your resturant owner satisfied his customers or not have nothing to do with anything.

To go with your example: He acts like a jerk and his buissness is shut Down. That is fine and that is how it should be. What you shouldnt do as a customer is get mad because that resturant should Down because of various reasons. You bought that one meal and got what you payed for, just like the comic. You are not expecting that resturant to be open for ever, nor do you have any right to get mad when it Closes. Its that simple.

[JFP]

Forgive me if I dont take any "advice" from the guy who feels he has the right to a comicbook over peopels actual lives and feels the need the curse at people for pointing out numbers while he ignores them at the same time because it does not fit his agenda. None of your examples Work. Not to mention seems to disregard actual Laws because he doenst like them. Whether your resturant owner satisfied his customers or not have nothing to do with anything.

To go with your example: He acts like a jerk and his buissness is shut Down. That is fine and that is how it should be. What you shouldnt do as a customer is get mad because that resturant should Down because of various reasons. You bought that one meal and got what you payed for, just like the comic. You are not expecting that resturant to be open for ever, nor do you have any right to get mad when it Closes. Its that simple.

Nope. He's not mad that the restaurant closed. He's mad over why the restaurant was closed: the business owner treated him poorly. The restaurant owner said, "You only paid for food. Since you've paid for what you wanted, our transaction is done here. I don't have to give you satisfying service and atmosphere."

Nope. The reader isn't mad that the book was cancelled. He's mad over why the book was cancelled: the comic creator treated him poorly. The creator said, "You only paid per issue. Since you've paid for what you wanted, our transaction is done here. I don't have to give you for a completed story."