New Image Rule?

[Dark-Flux]

I hire a painter. I pay him per hour. After 2 or 3 hours, he decides, "I don't wanna finish this because this is not gonna pay me the money I want. I know there's 9 more hours needed to finish. But I'm gonna quit anyway." I tell him, "I hired you to paint all the walls." "Yeah, but you only paid per hour. Since I've been paid for each of the 2-3 hours I've worked. Our transaction here is completed. So our business is done here." I'm gonna say, "You know damn well I didn't hire you for only 2-3 hours worth of work. I hired you to complete the work. And you know damn well I wouldn't have paid for your services if I knew you were gonna bail without finishing the work. I would have spent the money on a dude who can actually finish the job." He says, "This is not paying me enough money. You're just gonna have to deal with having your work unfinished." I'm gonna say, "This is not paying you enough money? Shouldn't you have figured this **** out before you started work?" He says, "See ya." And I'm left wasting money on a dude who can't finish his work.

I pay a for a comic. I pay per issue. After 2 or 3 issues, he decides, "I don't wanna finish this because this is not gonna pay me the money I want. I know there's 9 more issues needed to be finished. But I'm gonna quit anyway." I tell him, "I paid for your comic because I thought you would finish the story." "Yeah, but you only paid per issue. Since I've been paid for each of the 2-3 issues I've put out. Our transaction here is completed. So our business is done here." I'm gonna say, "You know damn well I didn't pay for an unfinished comic with only 2 or 3 issues. I paid your comic because I thought you were gonna give me a completed story. And you know damn well I wouldn't have paid for your comic if I knew you were gonna bail without finishing the story. I would have spent the money on a dude who can actually finish a comic he started." He says, "This is not paying me enough money. You're just gonna have to deal with having your comic unfinished." I'm gonna say, "This is not paying you enough money? Shouldn't you have figured this **** out before you started the comic?" He says, "See ya." And I'm left wasting money on a dude who can't finish his work.

False equivalence. With a painter youre commissioning him to complete a task for you. You are his client.
With a comic creative team, your paying to experience something they create, to their specification. This project is for them, you are just paying to witness it. You deciding to pick it up only because you assume you'll see an ending is an assumption you reached on your own. Its your problem.

Once again, they should have known this? What's so hard about planning ahead and saying, "There's a good chance this comic won't make me the money I want. So I should have a way to finish the story quickly if that happens."?

Not all of us have the ability to see the future, and can decide to only work on projects we know will be successful.

I'm only talking about the books that are monthly.

Such as?

Have you ever talked to artists about their work habits? Have you ever talked to artists at an art school like School of the Art Institute of Chicago or been on websites for artists like conceptart forum or smackjeeves forum? One of the biggest things artists talk about on a casual basis is procrastination. Talking to artists, you'll realize the majority of the men procrastinate. When they are just in a casual setting, they will be candid about it. When it's related to business, they'll insist they are fast and get work on time. No artist is gonna say he's big on procrastination. It is not in his best interest.

Your favorite creator won't tell you he quit his book because he was procrastinating. He will lose fans that way. So he'll jump in another direction and give you the whole sob story about how his family is in dire straits and they are scraping to get by. By lying to you about that, he gains your sympathy. Really guy, talk to artists. You will find they are a lazy bunch.

Im sure some are. But again, youre just assuming. And even if a book disappears due to a lazy artist - they still dont owe you anything if you havnt paid for it. It sucks, and the guys an poor work ethic, but unless you handed over money and he's failed to deliver thats the way it goes.

No, we're talking about those artists who say they won't work make 3 or more issues before publishing because "nobody is paying me while I make my story." As I asked before, how come musicians, filmmakers, painters, playwrights, and other artists can make work without getting paid but comic book artists feel they're so special they can't?

And again, any artist will be doing those first 3 issues for free initially. Because none of them will be seeing pay for at least 5 months after theyve done the work.
Musicians get paid by their record label. Filmakers by the studio. Playrights get paid by the production company.
Painters, like comic artists, work to their own schedule. Because you have to work around doing whatever actually brings in money.

If they don't get into comics for the money, then why are they quitting their comic due to lack of money? Why do they complain they don't wanna make sure they have 3 or more issues done before publishing because they won't get paid for their work? Why are they more interested in selling their art for work they don't believe in rather than using their art for something they do believe in, even if it's for free?

They know they're in all likelihood not gonna get rich off of comics. Which is why they have other jobs. Comics are a passion for them. But they have to make a living and putting out a comic is a huge undertaking. If their book isnt pulling in enough readers they'll have to end it because the ends dont justify the means.

Your opinion. My opinion: their art is good enough for comic books. If publishers are big in sequentials, why is Rob Liefeld one of the most popular creators in America? Why does he continue to get work? Are you gonna say his art is miles ahead of the art of the artists above?

My opinion is also shared by the bigger publishers, which is what matters. As evidenced by the fact that you dont see art of that low a quality being put out by them.
Im not a Liefeld fan. He's gets work because he's either well off enough he can put out his own stuff as he likes, or he is a big enough name and knows enough people that he can easily get a work for hire gig. And he made his name at a big publisher when his style was in demand and popular. And yeah. His work is of a higher quality than those you posted.

Actually, they don't have to be paid a minimum page rate by the publisher. It's just a normal practice. I don't think there's a law that states publishers have to pay creators per page. Publishers can actually only pay them once the work is completed.

All the big publishers that offer work for hire pay page rates.

In any case, my point was the supply of artists is increasing, while the demand is decreasing. To be able to make any money off illustration work is difficult because of this. They are lucky to get the money they are getting.

Anybodys lucky to get any job. Doesnt mean you can afford to work for little to no pay.

Making the publisher, distributor, retailer, and customer happy creates a positive relationship that will make a creator's future bills look bright because they trust his ability to finish the work. Look at Rob Liefeld. Do you think it's a coincidence Image is instituting this new 3 issue policy now that Rob is trying to publish a new comic? Do you think Diamond is interested in his work? Do you think retailers are interested in his work? How many fans have given up on him because of his inability to finish a comic?

Liefelds probably the single worst creator I can think of in terms of delayed or missing books. But he still gets work, and has his fans. And he's got money. He can afford to have his name "sullied" by late or missing books.
If youre just scraping by, you dont have a choice. You stop putting out the thing thats draining your pockets and take a work for hire gig.

Like most creators, he only thinks of the short-term goal: I need to pay bills now. He didn't think about the long-term goals: making the publisher, distributor, retailer, and customer happy so they'll trust his ability to make a comic, therefore, enabling him to have a fanbase that will allow him to pay bills in the future.

And thats a decision for the creator to make not you. The creator must decided if the energy he's putting into producing a series and the lack of return he gets on it, is offset by the risk of sullying his name if he ends it early.
Im not sure of your situation, but for most of us; not being able to pay bills is a big deal. I for one couldnt afford to not be paid for a month. Let alone several.

[Bor]

Nope. He's not mad that the restaurant closed. He's mad over why the restaurant was closed: the business owner treated him poorly. The restaurant owner said, "You only paid for food. Since you've paid for what you wanted, our transaction is done here. I don't have to give you satisfying service and atmosphere."

Nope. The reader isn't mad that the book was cancelled. He's mad over why the book was cancelled: the comic creator treated him poorly. The creator said, "You only paid per issue. Since you've paid for what you wanted, our transaction is done here. I don't have to give you for a completed story."

And this is pricely why I said your argument and example does not Work. When you buy a comic, book or anything you are not buying interaction with it. You are buying a product and that is all. When you expect anything else from buying a book then the book itself you are fooling yourself. Buying a comicbook/book/anything really is not the same as going to a fancy resturant/ descent resturant.
There is a big difference between buying a product and going to a resturant. One is buying a good and the other is in the service industry. If you buy a single issue comicbook and expect as good a service as going to a 4 star resturant then that is your problem. When buying a comicbook you are buying a product and that is all. If you think you deserve "satisfying atmophere" because of that then it is your own fault when you get disapointed. And saying a comicbook creator "treated you poorly" because he did not give you more then you payed for is again just not how it works.

Again: You can want it to be different but facts are when you buy a coomicbook you buy only that. You said you where not as naive as other and did not belive creators excuses, but if you actually buy a comicbook feeling like you are deserved anything else then that comicbook then you are naive. Espescially if the numbers for unfinished stories are as high as you think.

[capuga]

Another number crunching article. This one shows positive sales data for the industry:

https://graphicpolicy.com/2016/09/06...n-the-numbers/

[capuga]

Another interesting article about cancelled series and the flawed direct market situation:

http://comicbook.com/2016/09/07/whos...ts-cancelled-/

[JFP]

Another number crunching article. This one shows positive sales data for the industry:

https://graphicpolicy.com/2016/09/06...n-the-numbers/

I gave up on the argument a while ago. It was getting into left field.

But I just wanna say I've had these types of convos in the past with fanboys about how "the industry is doing well. Look at the figures" statements. The problem was the always directed me to figures created by Comichron. In the article you posted, capuga, the guy gets his sales data from Comichron (he says so in the 4th paragraph). Here is an excerpt from comichron.com's faq page:

Q: How does Comichron derive the actual sales figures?

A: The same way everyone else did for years: with reports from one or more publishers on what they actually sold to distributors, the entire chart can be unlocked. I began my monthly decoding of the charts in September 1996, and have been working to gather the information needed to figure out earlier months.

http://www.comichron.com/faq.html

The dude bases his sales figures on what publishers sell to Diamond. He does not base it on what retailers sell.

Your LCS can order 100 copies of your favorite comic but only sell 20 copies. But the guy at comichron only reports the 100 copies sold to Diamond. Therefore, people are posting this as actual retail sales figures when they are merely the distribution sales figures.

So all you fanboys who say, "I can't understand why you say the industry is declining when sales prove otherwise," now you have your answer. If someone can show me actual sources for comics other than the comichron guy or any other guy who goes purely on Diamond sales, I'd love to see them. Until then, I still say the industry is on the decline based on things like the decline of comic bookstores and the fact that it's considered a bad business move to start a comic book publishing company.

It's funny how people will say the industry is doing well but then agree that it's a terrible idea to start a new comic bookstore or comic book publisher. It would even be smarter to start a video rental store than a comic bookstore.

[Bor]

I gave up on the argument a while ago. It was getting into left field.

But I just wanna say I've had these types of convos in the past with fanboys about how "the industry is doing well. Look at the figures" statements. The problem was the always directed me to figures created by Comichron. In the article you posted, capuga, the guy gets his sales data from Comichron (he says so in the 4th paragraph). Here is an excerpt from comichron.com's faq page:

Q: How does Comichron derive the actual sales figures?

A: The same way everyone else did for years: with reports from one or more publishers on what they actually sold to distributors, the entire chart can be unlocked. I began my monthly decoding of the charts in September 1996, and have been working to gather the information needed to figure out earlier months.

http://www.comichron.com/faq.html

The dude bases his sales figures on what publishers sell to Diamond. He does not base it on what retailers sell.

Your LCS can order 100 copies of your favorite comic but only sell 20 copies. But the guy at comichron only reports the 100 copies sold to Diamond. Therefore, people are posting this as actual retail sales figures when they are merely the distribution sales figures.

So all you fanboys who say, "I can't understand why you say the industry is declining when sales prove otherwise," now you have your answer. If someone can show me actual sources for comics other than the comichron guy or any other guy who goes purely on Diamond sales, I'd love to see them. Until then, I still say the industry is on the decline based on things like the decline of comic bookstores and the fact that it's considered a bad business move to start a comic book publishing company.

It's funny how people will say the industry is doing well but then agree that it's a terrible idea to start a new comic bookstore or comic book publisher. It would even be smarter to start a video rental store than a comic bookstore.

You are completely right these numbers are based on sales to retailers. Everyone in this thread seems to be aware of that, but you know what? That is the way it has always been so those numbers you yourself tried to use from 90s and before where the same thing. Not to mention those numbers do not include things like digital comics sales that by all accounts has increased a lot these last few years.

So the reason "fanboys" says they cant understand why you say the industry is in decline is because it is not despite your desire to ignore numbers to because you dont like it. The industry by all measureable ways is not currently in decline. Yes the number of comicbook stores is in declines but of various Things already discussed in this thread that I dont see a reason to repeat Again, BUT sales are up and that is what you look at when you determine whether a industry is in decline or not. If DC decides to only put out 20 titles a month instead of 30, made up numbers here, but their total sales numbers are up in the end then that does mean they are in decline.
And one of the reasons most people say it is a terrible idea to start a comic bookstore is because most people who talk about doing it on here or other sites are people who are fans of comics but do not understand what it takes to run a successfull comic bookstore or really any store. To do that more often then not you need to both treat it as an actual store, which many seems to forget, and likely you also have to diversify with other products like Magic Cards etc. But that is the case with a LOT of retail stores like bookstores, videogame stores and so on.

[JFP]

You are completely right these numbers are based on sales to retailers. Everyone in this thread seems to be aware of that, but you know what? That is the way it has always been so those numbers you yourself tried to use from 90s and before where the same thing. Not to mention those numbers do not include things like digital comics sales that by all accounts has increased a lot these last few years.

So the reason "fanboys" says they cant understand why you say the industry is in decline is because it is not despite your desire to ignore numbers to because you dont like it. The industry by all measureable ways is not currently in decline. Yes the number of comicbook stores is in declines but of various Things already discussed in this thread that I dont see a reason to repeat Again, BUT sales are up and that is what you look at when you determine whether a industry is in decline or not. If DC decides to only put out 20 titles a month instead of 30, made up numbers here, but their total sales numbers are up in the end then that does mean they are in decline.
And one of the reasons most people say it is a terrible idea to start a comic bookstore is because most people who talk about doing it on here or other sites are people who are fans of comics but do not understand what it takes to run a successfull comic bookstore or really any store. To do that more often then not you need to both treat it as an actual store, which many seems to forget, and likely you also have to diversify with other products like Magic Cards etc. But that is the case with a LOT of retail stores like bookstores, videogame stores and so on.

Yes, and I've been asking for retail sales of comic books. Not distribution sales. Retail sales are the marker for whether or not an industry is doing well. Not distribution sales. Since I can't find the retail sales, I go by other signs in the industry.

Your comparison of video game stores and bookstores with comic bookstores is off. There is a significant difference:

1. Comic bookstores were declining before the internet. Not the same with video game stores or bookstores.

2. A successful businessman finds it difficult to turn comic bookstores into chain stores. Even two comic bookstores is a difficult thing to do. With video games, there's gamestop and with bookstores there's Barnes and Noble and Books a Million.

3. 150,000 sold is chump change for video game stores and bookstores.

4. In the comic book industry, people would say it's a bad idea to start a new publisher, become a creator, or start a comic store. There isn't nearly as much pessimism in a newcomer getting into the video game industry or book industry.

5. Bookstores and video game stores don't need to diversify to stay viable. Comic bookstores need to diversify to stay viable.

You say I'm ignoring numbers because I don't like it. No, I am ignoring the numbers because they are not the numbers I am asking for. I am asking for sales of comic books in retail stores and you're providing Diamond's sales. Not the same thing. Since you are unable or unwilling to provide me with retail sales numbers, I don't see any reason to believe that the industry is doing all right. If retail sales are so high, why have stores been declining since before the internet?

[Bor]

Yes, and I've been asking for retail sales of comic books. Not distribution sales. Retail sales are the marker for whether or not an industry is doing well. Not distribution sales. Since I can't find the retail sales, I go by other signs in the industry.

Your comparison of video game stores and bookstores with comic bookstores is off. There is a significant difference:

1. Comic bookstores were declining before the internet. Not the same with video game stores or bookstores.

2. A successful businessman finds it difficult to turn comic bookstores into chain stores. Even two comic bookstores is a difficult thing to do. With video games, there's gamestop and with bookstores there's Barnes and Noble and Books a Million.

3. 150,000 sold is chump change for video game stores and bookstores.

4. In the comic book industry, people would say it's a bad idea to start a new publisher, become a creator, or start a comic store. There isn't nearly as much pessimism in a newcomer getting into the video game industry or book industry.

5. Bookstores and video game stores don't need to diversify to stay viable. Comic bookstores need to diversify to stay viable.

You say I'm ignoring numbers because I don't like it. No, I am ignoring the numbers because they are not the numbers I am asking for. I am asking for sales of comic books in retail stores and you're providing Diamond's sales. Not the same thing. Since you are unable or unwilling to provide me with retail sales numbers, I don't see any reason to believe that the industry is doing all right. If retail sales are so high, why have stores been declining since before the internet?

1. Yes because of various factors such as videogames etc that we have already discussed A LOT in this thread. That does not mean the internet has not had effect. Both positive and negative.

2. Yes but both have lost a Whole tons of stores and chains these last few years. So what?

3. Again so what?

4. I will guantee you anyone WHO tries to open a new chain of bookstores will get the same exact respons from people. And books are a bigger thing then comicbook so of course its not the same thing. You are grasping for straws here. And video games stores dying because of such Things as steam etc.

5. Are you kidding me? Have you been in a bookstore or video game store lately? It really seems like you havent. Gamestop consist of SO MUCH stuff like pokemon stuffed animals and all kinds of differnet kinds including magic Cards and so on. And bookstores are the exact same thing. Do you actually not know this?

Yes you are ignoring the only numbers that always been available to the publich. Looking at those numbers and you will see they are increasing.
So yes you ignore facts because it does not fit your agenda of "the industry is in decline". You think your own view point trumps facts, and what I am saying is it does not. Why dont you provide actual evidence of anything you claim? Because unlike any of your claims the rest of us like facts even if you dont. The number of stores does not matter. Sales does. It is still that simple.

[JFP]

Why dont you provide actual evidence of anything you claim? Because unlike any of your claims the rest of us like facts even if you dont. The number of stores does not matter. Sales does. It is still that simple.

Why don't you provide actual sales figures of retail stores not Diamond sales figures, Mr. Only the Facts Matter?

[Bor]

Why don't you provide actual sales figures of retail stores not Diamond sales figures, Mr. Only the Facts Matter?

1. Because they are not available. They have never been available and that is the point. When looking at whether an industry is in decline or not you look at the numbers and the numbers availabld is the same type of numbers that has always been available: Diamond sales. So the only reason to deny those numbers would be to think that stores are suddenly ordering more now but selling less. Which means that they would have more current issues in stores now then before. That would mean that these stores are getting worse at ordering. Comsidering how many retailers regurly talk about how many random 90s comics they have had in their store for 20+ years that seems unlikely.

2. Those numbers as already mentioned do not include stuff like digital sales, and unless you think have not risen the last few years, which all things says they have.
So why dont you provide some actual argument, facts and numbers to support any of yout claims MR. Facts dont matter only my opinion does?

[Dark-Flux]

Number of US comic stores actually went up this year interestingly;

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/02/...nning-of-2015/

I blame Funkos.

[JFP]

Another interesting article about cancelled series and the flawed direct market situation:

http://comicbook.com/2016/09/07/whos...ts-cancelled-/

Thanks for this article. I've skimmed through it but it confirms many of the things I've said. I'll get back to you when I've read it more in depth.

1. Because they are not available. They have never been available and that is the point. When looking at whether an industry is in decline or not you look at the numbers and the numbers availabld is the same type of numbers that has always been available: Diamond sales. So the only reason to deny those numbers would be to think that stores are suddenly ordering more now but selling less. Which means that they would have more current issues in stores now then before. That would mean that these stores are getting worse at ordering. Comsidering how many retailers regurly talk about how many random 90s comics they have had in their store for 20+ years that seems unlikely.

2. Those numbers as already mentioned do not include stuff like digital sales, and unless you think have not risen the last few years, which all things says they have.
So why dont you provide some actual argument, facts and numbers to support any of yout claims MR. Facts dont matter only my opinion does?

So you agree with me that there is zero factual evidence that comic retail sales are increasing?

Number of US comic stores actually went up this year:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/02/...nning-of-2015/

You need to read the article better. There are many flaws:

1. It does not provide a link to show their claim that there 3.8% increase in stores.
2. It appears they are including foreign stores in their estimates as well like UK, Australia, Canada, and NZ. When I said comic stores are decreasing, was talking about the U.S. only. Do you have a source that provides for the increase in stores in the U.S. only?
3. It says around 80-100 stores increased. That's pathetic. It's even more pathetic if a significant number (or the majority) are not in the U.S.

[Dark-Flux]

Lol, youre really stretching here arnt you?

You claim the industries in decline despite industry worth going up ("but not as much as I want it to"!!!)
You claim sales are down despite sales data saying its heading up ("but not as much as I want it to"!!!)
You say comic stores are all closing up despite reports more have opened up ("but not as much as I want there to be"!!!)

Wheres your evidence to back up your doomsaying?

Im sorry that the comics industry is dying for you when its apparantly doing fine for everybody else.

[JFP]

Lol, youre really stretching here arnt you?

You claim the industries in decline despite industry worth going up ("but not as much as I want it to"!!!)
You claim sales are down despite sales data saying its heading up ("but not as much as I want it to"!!!)
You say comic stores are all closing up despite reports more have opened up ("but not as much as I want there to be"!!!)

Wheres your evidence to back up your doomsaying?

Im sorry that the comics industry is dying for you when its apparantly doing fine for everybody else.

What is your definition of "industry worth going up"?
Where is your evidence that retail sales (not distribution sales) are going up?
Where is your evidence that more United States stores (I am not asking about stores outside the country) are increasing?

Sure, the comics industry is "doing fine" for everybody else. That's why everyone says starting a new comic book publisher is a smart idea? That's why everyone says starting a new comic store is a smart idea? That's why everyone says the market looks bright for newcomers wanting to join in the industry? That's why the direct market will soon be a thing of the past for the comics industry, right? That's why you have fewer and fewer people trade-waiting and more and more people showing confidence in floppies, right?

[Orpheus37]

Well... from what I can tell the industry is not gonna crumble but its definitely not thriving either. I am in art school and am specializing in sequential art, and we have a lot of industry pros teaching there. Pretty much everyone tells us that making a living based solely on comics is super rare. Pretty much all the teachers have done work on major properties. Hell, some are doing a current monthly series for some well known books but still have to take other work on the side. These are not signs of a thriving industry, but no one thinks that doomsday is coming either.