New Image Rule?

[JFP]

Well... from what I can tell the industry is not gonna crumble but its definitely not thriving either. I am in art school and am specializing in sequential art, and we have a lot of industry pros teaching there. Pretty much everyone tells us that making a living based solely on comics is super rare. Pretty much all the teachers have done work on major properties. Hell, some are doing a current monthly series for some well known books but still have to take other work on the side. These are not signs of a thriving industry, but no one thinks that doomsday is coming either.

Hopefully, no one thinks I said doomsday for the industry is upon us. However, I think people believe that's what I meant. But I just want it to be known that I never said nor meant it's doomsday for the U.S. comics industry.

It's like this, Dark-Flux and Bor agree with me regarding many negative aspects of the comic book industry: starting a new comics company is a bad idea; they don't see the comics industry moving away from the direct market anytime soon; they don't think they'll ever see the days where comics are located in multiple locations like they were back in the old days; they agree starting a new comics store is a bad idea; they agree with the fact that the Big 2 dominating is unhealthy for the industry; they don't believe there will be a time when the Big 2's dominance no longer holds the industry; they agree that there's no evidence to show retail store sales are better than they were in previous decades; etc. However, despite all their negative opinions, they are adamant that the comic book industry is doing just fine.

It makes no sense how these fanboys can have such a pessimistic outlook regarding the industry yet still insist it's doing just fine.

By the way, thanks for the contribution to this thread, Orpheus.

[Orpheus37]

Hopefully, no one thinks I said doomsday for the industry is upon us. However, I think people believe that's what I meant. But I just want it to be known that I never said nor meant it's doomsday for the U.S. comics industry.

It's like this, Dark-Flux and Bor agree with me regarding many negative aspects of the comic book industry: starting a new comics company is a bad idea; they don't see the comics industry moving away from the direct market anytime soon; they don't think they'll ever see the days where comics are located in multiple locations like they were back in the old days; they agree starting a new comics store is a bad idea; they agree with the fact that the Big 2 dominating is unhealthy for the industry; they don't believe there will be a time when the Big 2's dominance no longer holds the industry; they agree that there's no evidence to show retail store sales are better than they were in previous decades; etc. However, despite all their negative opinions, they are adamant that the comic book industry is doing just fine.

It makes no sense how these fanboys can have such a pessimistic outlook regarding the industry yet still insist it's doing just fine.

By the way, thanks for the contribution to this thread, Orpheus.

Yeah, no problem, and I never thought you were saying the end was near, I was just using some big words to say what I meant. The hard truth is that the industry is not very healthy, you have a ton of qualified people willing to fight tooth and nail for sometimes very low paying work, and its silly to think that the companies don't exploit this. Just think how much some of these people hustle. They work under super tough deadlines, and then travel around the world to conventions. Maybe some of these people travel just for the hell of it, but I think a lot of them do it just out of necessity, and after all of that you're pretty much just making ends meet unless you're one of the Jim Lees of the industry. On a positive note, the lack of a strong power structure actually make it possible for anyone to throw their hat in the ring and make a super successful comic that can more than pay their bills, so the bottom is deep but the sky's the limit.

[Bor]

Thanks for this article. I've skimmed through it but it confirms many of the things I've said. I'll get back to you when I've read it more in depth.


So you agree with me that there is zero factual evidence that comic retail sales are increasing?
I have never said anything about comic retail as in store sales. But no there is factual evidence that are not perfect but very much facts even if you seem to have a hard time understandingen how this works. What there is however, is zero factual evidence that the industry is in decline.

You need to read the article better. There are many flaws:

1. It does not provide a link to show their claim that there 3.8% increase in stores.
2. It appears they are including foreign stores in their estimates as well like UK, Australia, Canada, and NZ. When I said comic stores are decreasing, was talking about the U.S. only. Do you have a source that provides for the increase in stores in the U.S. only?
3. It says around 80-100 stores increased. That's pathetic. It's even more pathetic if a significant number (or the majority) are not in the U.S.

3. Doenst change the fact that if these numbers are right then 80-100 stores more is still an increase and if you werent trying to defend your more and more unsupported claims you would see that.

[Bor]

Hopefully, no one thinks I said doomsday for the industry is upon us. However, I think people believe that's what I meant. But I just want it to be known that I never said nor meant it's doomsday for the U.S. comics industry.

It's like this, Dark-Flux and Bor agree with me regarding many negative aspects of the comic book industry: starting a new comics company is a bad idea; they don't see the comics industry moving away from the direct market anytime soon; they don't think they'll ever see the days where comics are located in multiple locations like they were back in the old days; they agree starting a new comics store is a bad idea; they agree with the fact that the Big 2 dominating is unhealthy for the industry; they don't believe there will be a time when the Big 2's dominance no longer holds the industry; they agree that there's no evidence to show retail store sales are better than they were in previous decades; etc. However, despite all their negative opinions, they are adamant that the comic book industry is doing just fine.

It makes no sense how these fanboys can have such a pessimistic outlook regarding the industry yet still insist it's doing just fine.

By the way, thanks for the contribution to this thread, Orpheus.

I would ask you to nok speak for me when it is clear you do not understand my views. There is actual evidence. You are the only one who has been unable to provide anthing facts related and when called out on it you deny it and try to make your unsupported claims look like facts. It really seems like you dont understand any of the things we have talked about. Whether the big two dominates the industry has NOTHING to do with whether the industry is in decline or not. Neither have the vast majority of the other things you mentioened. What you are arguing might be relevant from a creative point of view but has nothing to do with your original claim that the industry is in decline.
And btw the fact you feel the need say "fanboys" to try and disregard our views, despite the fact we atleast have evidence to support our claim, is a very good demonstration of where you stand.

[Bor]

Yeah, no problem, and I never thought you were saying the end was near, I was just using some big words to say what I meant. The hard truth is that the industry is not very healthy, you have a ton of qualified people willing to fight tooth and nail for sometimes very low paying work, and its silly to think that the companies don't exploit this. Just think how much some of these people hustle. They work under super tough deadlines, and then travel around the world to conventions. Maybe some of these people travel just for the hell of it, but I think a lot of them do it just out of necessity, and after all of that you're pretty much just making ends meet unless you're one of the Jim Lees of the industry. On a positive note, the lack of a strong power structure actually make it possible for anyone to throw their hat in the ring and make a super successful comic that can more than pay their bills, so the bottom is deep but the sky's the limit.

But what you are talking about here is the industry for the creator and such. The industry however, as in how much money is made how many books are solled, is a different subject and that is what we have been arguing about here.

[JFP]

Bor said, "I would ask you not to speak for me when it is clear you do not understand my views."

But you don't have a problem speaking for me when you don't understand my views? You speak for me when you say I do not understand the difference between ongoing and monthly. You speak for me when you say I said creators should work for free. You speak for me when you say I said all creators are lazy. But it's not right for me to speak for you. Hypocrite.

Bor said, "There is actual evidence that the industry is doing well."

When I ask you for evidence that retail sales are increasing, you provide me with evidence of distribution sales increasing as if they are the same thing. Then you say I'm ignoring facts when I don't believe distribution sales are a good indicator that retail sales are increasing. You have zero evidence retail sales are improving. Thus, you have no evidence the industry is doing fine. But I'm supposed to take it simply because "that's the way things have always been done". Sorry. Not gonna happen.

Bor said, " 3. Doenst change the fact that if these numbers are right then 80-100 stores more is still an increase and if you werent trying to defend your more and more unsupported claims you would see that."

His article did not provide a link to the evidence that comic stores are increasing. It merely had a few paragraphs and a few pics of random comic stores in English-speaking countries. Those weren't facts. Where is the list of comic stores that are supposed to have just started? If BleedingCool claims there are 80-100 new comic stores, they should be able to name them. Since they can neither name them nor provide a link to prove it's true, I'm calling bullshit.

Yeah, no problem, and I never thought you were saying the end was near, I was just using some big words to say what I meant. The hard truth is that the industry is not very healthy, you have a ton of qualified people willing to fight tooth and nail for sometimes very low paying work, and its silly to think that the companies don't exploit this. Just think how much some of these people hustle. They work under super tough deadlines, and then travel around the world to conventions. Maybe some of these people travel just for the hell of it, but I think a lot of them do it just out of necessity, and after all of that you're pretty much just making ends meet unless you're one of the Jim Lees of the industry. On a positive note, the lack of a strong power structure actually make it possible for anyone to throw their hat in the ring and make a super successful comic that can more than pay their bills, so the bottom is deep but the sky's the limit.

My main thing is the likelihood of failure is far greater than the likelihood of success. It shouldn't have to be that way. If the industry could focus on getting new fans instead of relying on a decreasing readership, things would be better for creators. The sky is the limit but, unfortunately, the sky is blocked by a glass ceiling for most creators.

[Orpheus37]

But what you are talking about here is the industry for the creator and such. The industry however, as in how much money is made how many books are solled, is a different subject and that is what we have been arguing about here.

True but I think the realistic life of a creator is important to factor in. I think the industry as it is now is relatively stable, but stable with tons of problems, the chief one being a lack of money.

[Bor]

Bor said, "I would ask you not to speak for me when it is clear you do not understand my views."

But you don't have a problem speaking for me when you don't understand my views? You speak for me when you say I do not understand the difference between ongoing and monthly. You speak for me when you say I said creators should work for free. You speak for me when you say I said all creators are lazy. But it's not right for me to speak for you. Hypocrite.
That is crap. Point out where I have pretended to speak for you. You called a title ongoing and said that as if that mean monthly. And yes you said that you didnt care whether a creator was not payed for several month somthat is my view on it. The fact that you yet again stoop to name calling just further demonstrates that you dont have any actual facts to back up yout viewpoints.
Bor said, "There is actual evidence that the industry is doing well."

When I ask you for evidence that retail sales are increasing, you provide me with evidence of distribution sales increasing as if they are the same thing. Then you say I'm ignoring facts when I don't believe distribution sales are a good indicator that retail sales are increasing. You have zero evidence retail sales are improving. Thus, you have no evidence the industry is doing fine. But I'm supposed to take it simply because "that's the way things have always been done". Sorry. Not gonna happen.
So when you try and use numbers from years ago that are based on the same thing they count but when I do they should be disregarded? Good to know numbers only count when you say so
Bor said, " 3. Doenst change the fact that if these numbers are right then 80-100 stores more is still an increase and if you werent trying to defend your more and more unsupported claims you would see that."

His article did not provide a link to the evidence that comic stores are increasing. It merely had a few paragraphs and a few pics of random comic stores in English-speaking countries. Those weren't facts. Where is the list of comic stores that are supposed to have just started? If BleedingCool claims there are 80-100 new comic stores, they should be able to name them. Since they can neither name them nor provide a link to prove it's true, I'm calling bullshit.

That is why I said "if these numbers are right". Bleeding cool might some times be wrong but like them or not, and I am really not that big a fan, they are often right to. But again if the numbers of stores really have decreased as much as you say then why not provide evidence to support your claim? Why is that to much to ask?

Really all this boils down to your claim thatnthe industry is in decline. Whether the industry is doing better in Japan, the big two dominates the buissness and so on has nothing to do with whether the industry is financial in decline or not. No one, or atleast I didnt, ever say the industry was in great shape. Just that there are no numbers to support the claim that it is currently in decline. You have not yet provided any actual evidence to support your claims. Hard fatcs. All you argued is that it is not working as well as it could be and that you think the industry should look to Japan for inspiration. And you might be right. But that has nothing to do with whether the industry is currently in decline or not.

[Bor]

True but I think the realistic life of a creator is important to factor in. I think the industry as it is now is relatively stable, but stable with tons of problems, the chief one being a lack of money.

Fair enough. Allthough I would argue creators are a lot better of with the options they have now then doing some periods where they where payed very little and had no real options for retirement funds, royalties and so on.

[JFP]

Bor said, "This is crap. Point to me where I pretended to speak for you."

Here is just one example: "So you think that because you bought one comic that entitles you to control his Work and future? Wow...."

http://community.comicbookresources....New-Image-Rule

Post #14 of the above thread.

Bor said, "You called a title ongoing and said that as if that mean monthly. And yes you said that you didnt care whether a creator was not payed for several month somthat is my view on it."

Give me an actual quote where I made the statement in your first sentence. Then give me actual quote where I made the statement in the second sentence.


Bor said, "That is why I said "if these numbers are right". Bleeding cool might some times be wrong but like them or not, and I am really not that big a fan, they are often right to. But again if the numbers of stores really have decreased as much as you say then why not provide evidence to support your claim? Why is that to much to ask?"

Where does this part in bold come from? I merely said stores are declining. I never said anything regarding how many stores are declining. Find we the quote where I gave an estimate of the number of stores declining.

Really all this boils down to your claim thatnthe industry is in decline. Whether the industry is doing better in Japan, the big two dominates the buissness and so on has nothing to do with whether the industry is financial in decline or not. No one, or atleast I didnt, ever say the industry was in great shape. Just that there are no numbers to support the claim that it is currently in decline. You have not yet provided any actual evidence to support your claims. Hard fatcs. All you argued is that it is not working as well as it could be and that you think the industry should look to Japan for inspiration. And you might be right. But that has nothing to do with whether the industry is currently in decline or not.

So what are you saying? The industry is not declining. But it's not in good shape. Then what is it?

[Dark-Flux]

So what are you saying? The industry is not declining. But it's not in good shape. Then what is it?

Its on the rise but not in its ideal shape.
Nobodies eve argued that the industry is in the best state its ever been in, nor that it cant be better. But it is in the best shape its been in for about 20 years now and from all indication thats set to continue. Thats not something to be dismayed at. Especially given that its managed to do that whilst at the same time being arguably the best its ever been in terms of creator rights and treatment.

[Bor]

Bor said, "This is crap. Point to me where I pretended to speak for you."

Here is just one example: "So you think that because you bought one comic that entitles you to control his Work and future? Wow...."

http://community.comicbookresources....New-Image-Rule



Yes in m viewpoint you thinking that you deserve for a crator to finish a series no matter wheter he is not maiking enough Money on it to live means that.
Post #14 of the above thread.

Bor said, "You called a title ongoing and said that as if that mean monthly. And yes you said that you didnt care whether a creator was not payed for several month somthat is my view on it."

Give me an actual quote where I made the statement in your first sentence. Then give me actual quote where I made the statement in the second sentence.

I couldnt find you saying the first statemet so I will gladly admit that I migh have you confused to somone else in that thread, "Should Image comicsactually....", because unlike some I have not problem admitting when I am wrong. The secon statement however is plentyfull in that thread and others with statements like: " I paid for his comic. Doesn't matter if he gets paid at the back end or whatever, I paid for his comic." (post 68). There are plenty of example of you saying this sort of thing, where either you dont understan how the Image model Works or you dont care that they are payed later on. But please continue to deny it despite it being there for everyone to see. Its actually getting pretty funny.


Bor said, "That is why I said "if these numbers are right". Bleeding cool might some times be wrong but like them or not, and I am really not that big a fan, they are often right to. But again if the numbers of stores really have decreased as much as you say then why not provide evidence to support your claim? Why is that to much to ask?"

Where does this part in bold come from? I merely said stores are declining. I never said anything regarding how many stores are declining. Find we the quote where I gave an estimate of the number of stores declining.

See this is just you spltting hairs. You said they were in decline and could provide no actual evidence.

So what are you saying? The industry is not declining. But it's not in good shape. Then what is it?

I have to ask you if you actually dont have any buissness knowlegde or experience at all here. There is a difference between being in decline and being in the greatest shape it has ever been. Dont you understand that? When you look at whether an industry is currently in decline you dont compare it with the highest it has ever been, and that is not my opinion that is how it Works from a buisness definiton stand point. It is in pretty good shape, but no not the greatest it has ever been and yes it likely could be better. Please tell me you understand the difference becaus if you dont then there is really no point to debate with you on this any more.

[skyvolt2000]

Why don't you provide actual sales figures of retail stores not Diamond sales figures, Mr. Only the Facts Matter?

Nobody can. You would have to visit every single store to find out.

One thing we forget is not every comic is sold in a store.

I know stores that won't sell Archie comics.

I know stores that refuse to sell solo books with a black lead.

There were stores that refused to sell Inhuman book.

There are books no one is being given a choice to read (if they don't order online or digital books).

So if you only look at Batman and those who don't have issues getting their books stocked-everything seems fine.

A successful businessman finds it difficult to turn comic bookstores into chain stores. Even two comic bookstores is a difficult thing to do. With video games, there's gamestop and with bookstores there's Barnes and Noble and Books a Million.

You will struggle when SOMEONE else has your product CHEAPER.

How many times have you gone to a comic book store and saw say Finn in his Storm Trooper suit for $25. Yet you go to say Wal-Mart he's there for $15 (if you can find him) or Movie Trading Post for $20.

Why would I buy Batman at $4 when I can go to Half Price Books and he's there for $2?

Why would I pay $35 for the Ultra Blu Ray of Fantastic Four when I can get that same product for $20 at Target?

You will struggle when you stay out of certain communities.

K-Mart is finding that out now. I get coupons from them daily yet the nearest one to me is 6 hours away.

What killed Borders, Circuit City and Blockbuster was a combination of the above.

[JFP]

Nobody can. You would have to visit every single store to find out.

One thing we forget is not every comic is sold in a store.

I know stores that won't sell Archie comics.

I know stores that refuse to sell solo books with a black lead.

There were stores that refused to sell Inhuman book.

There are books no one is being given a choice to read (if they don't order online or digital books).

So if you only look at Batman and those who don't have issues getting their books stocked-everything seems fine.




You will struggle when SOMEONE else has your product CHEAPER.

How many times have you gone to a comic book store and saw say Finn in his Storm Trooper suit for $25. Yet you go to say Wal-Mart he's there for $15 (if you can find him) or Movie Trading Post for $20.

Why would I buy Batman at $4 when I can go to Half Price Books and he's there for $2?

Why would I pay $35 for the Ultra Blu Ray of Fantastic Four when I can get that same product for $20 at Target?

You will struggle when you stay out of certain communities.

K-Mart is finding that out now. I get coupons from them daily yet the nearest one to me is 6 hours away.

What killed Borders, Circuit City and Blockbuster was a combination of the above.

See, I gave up on Bor and Dark-Flux because they are saying the industry is better solely based on distribution profits. Not retail profits. Their claim is that the industry is doing better today than 20 years ago. My question: would comic bookstore owners agree with these guys that the industry is better today than 20 years ago?

Back in the 90s, the town I grew up in had around 51,000 people and 3 comic bookstores. Today it has around 61,000 people and 0 comic bookstores. Big Brain Comics, which is in Minneapolis, started in 1996. Last June the owner closed shop. The reason: he was doing worse off in 2016 than he was in 1996. Back when Big Brain started, there were more than 6. Now, with him gone, there are 1 or 2. This is for a city of more than 400,000.

In some metro areas in the U.S. with a population of more than a million, there's only 1 comic bookstore. Many comic book readers have to drive more than half an hour to get to the nearest store. It wasn't this bad 20 years ago. Yet, somehow, these guys are telling me the industry is doing better now than 20 years ago. Have guys like Dark-Flux and Bor bothered to ask their local comic bookstore owners if they think the industry is better now than 20 years ago? If we did a survey, how many comic shop owners would say they think the industry is better now than 20 years ago?

By the way, thanks for the contribution to this discussion. You are totally right about comic bookstores being selective. I've heard some disheartening stories from small press publishers when they talk about the scorn and derision they receive from comic bookstore owners when they ask to place their products in their stores. The comic shop I go to now used to have a store where they gave preference to the Big 2. They seriously stocked many of their indies in places most people wouldn't notice unless you were looking there. They didn't even bother to alphabetize them or organize them in any way. They just squashed them all together. So they might place a really small floppy between two huge trades. I remember a few Christmas seasons ago, they were having a Christmas sale. Discounted Big 2 trades were right front and center when you walked in. Everyone else, including Savage Dragon and Hellboy were scrunched off into a corner on the window sill. I would not have noticed the indie discounts if they hadn't pointed it out to me. This same comic shop just got a bigger location and they sell far less indies and way more Big 2 merchandise. It's way too noticeable to be a coincidence.

Regarding prices, I agree. Amazon has made it easy to get trades for cheap. Or I can read some at my local library. It's difficult to spend the money on that new trade when you know it'll be less than half price at Amazon in a few months.

[Bor]

See, I gave up on Bor and Dark-Flux because they are saying the industry is better solely based on distribution profits. Not retail profits. Their claim is that the industry is doing better today than 20 years ago. My question: would comic bookstore owners agree with these guys that the industry is better today than 20 years ago?

Back in the 90s, the town I grew up in had around 51,000 people and 3 comic bookstores. Today it has around 61,000 people and 0 comic bookstores. Big Brain Comics, which is in Minneapolis, started in 1996. Last June the owner closed shop. The reason: he was doing worse off in 2016 than he was in 1996. Back when Big Brain started, there were more than 6. Now, with him gone, there are 1 or 2. This is for a city of more than 400,000.

In some metro areas in the U.S. with a population of more than a million, there's only 1 comic bookstore. Many comic book readers have to drive more than half an hour to get to the nearest store. It wasn't this bad 20 years ago. Yet, somehow, these guys are telling me the industry is doing better now than 20 years ago. Have guys like Dark-Flux and Bor bothered to ask their local comic bookstore owners if they think the industry is better now than 20 years ago? If we did a survey, how many comic shop owners would say they think the industry is better now than 20 years ago?

By the way, thanks for the contribution to this discussion. You are totally right about comic bookstores being selective. I've heard some disheartening stories from small press publishers when they talk about the scorn and derision they receive from comic bookstore owners when they ask to place their products in their stores. The comic shop I go to now used to have a store where they gave preference to the Big 2. They seriously stocked many of their indies in places most people wouldn't notice unless you were looking there. They didn't even bother to alphabetize them or organize them in any way. They just squashed them all together. So they might place a really small floppy between two huge trades. I remember a few Christmas seasons ago, they were having a Christmas sale. Discounted Big 2 trades were right front and center when you walked in. Everyone else, including Savage Dragon and Hellboy were scrunched off into a corner on the window sill. I would not have noticed the indie discounts if they hadn't pointed it out to me. This same comic shop just got a bigger location and they sell far less indies and way more Big 2 merchandise. It's way too noticeable to be a coincidence.

Regarding prices, I agree. Amazon has made it easy to get trades for cheap. Or I can read some at my local library. It's difficult to spend the money on that new trade when you know it'll be less than half price at Amazon in a few months.

You said the industry is in decline and was unable to provide any actual evidence because its just not the way it is. You can try and provide your anecdotal evidence all you want but most people here understand that means very little compared to actual numbers. It means espescially little coming from a guy who does not feel he has to provide any evidence at all because it "not part of cbr rules". People called you out on not being able to provide any support for your claims and that was your answer. All of the above is your own personal experience which is fine to give, but to put that above actual numbers and facts is redicules and I doubt most people here will fall for that cheap trick to try and cover the fact you dont have a leg to stand on. You say you gave up on me and dark-flux, but the fact is you gave up on providing any facts to back up your claims because non existed. But go on have fun trying to deny reality bacause it does not support your agenda. I was done the moment you said that you dont think you have to provide any evidence because "its not part of cbr rules".