When Spider-Man doesn't appear in a best comics list

[Mister Mets]

Recently, I bought a magazine special about the 100 greatest comic books.



And one weird thing was that there was no Spider-Man comic.

About a third of it is superhero comics (slightly more/ less depending on whether you count Kick-Ass, The Invisibles, Neil Gaiman's Death mini-series) and that it's a mix of graphic novels and longer runs. The oldest comic was published in the 1970s, while there are a few ongoing series represented (Lumberjanes, Ms. Marvel, etc.) A few Marvel mini-series where Spider-Man made an appearance popped up on the list. This included Marvel: 1602 at 77th place, The Infinity Gauntlet at 69th, Marvels at 38th. The X-Men had three appearances with Joss Whedon and John Cassady's Astonishing X-Men run in 60th place, Days of Future Past in 56th place, and the Dark Phoenix Saga in 33rd place. Daredevil: The Man Without Fear was in 46th place, although Born Again—a strong contender for the best Marvel comic ever—did not make the cut.

Batman was well-represented with The Long Halloween at 83rd place, Hush at 61st, Mad Love at 49th, Killing Joke at 39th, Arkham Astylum at 26th, and Year One at 15, in addition to Dark Knight Returns. Superman had a few appearances, with Superman For All Seasons at 65th place, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow at 58th, Red Son at 42nd, and All-Star Superman at 13th . Kingdom Come, where he is essentially the lead, was at 75th place.

Are there explanations for the absence beyond the bad taste of some random magazine writers?

What Spider-Man comics would you include in this kind of list?

[steeplejack2112]

Wow....not a one? I think the creators of said list need to go back and re-think that.

If I were to include some Spidey stories, I would include the two-part story in Amazing Spider-Man where he takes on the Juggernaut. Continuing on with that theme, I would list Marvel Team-Up #150 with Spidey and the X-Men taking on Black Tom and Juggy. Just two examples off the top of my head.

[Bor]

Recently, I bought a magazine special about the 100 greatest comic books.

Thats surprising. Usually when they do list like this stories like Kravens last hunt, The night Gwen Stacy died or something like that appears on it.

Th

[Confuzzled]

Amazing Fantasy #15 is a must as it is such a milestone in superhero storytelling and origin stories.

[Celgress]

Wow....not a one? I think the creators of said list need to go back and re-think that.....

Indeed they should.

[Mister Mets]

The way I see it there may be a few contributing factors.

- The list is biased against older comics, which hurts Spider-Man when some of the best comics were in the 60s (plus the Night Gwen Stacy Died in 1973.)

- Some of the best Spider-Man stories are shorter, so they're less likely to be reflected in a list of TPBs and creative runs. This would include the 11 page Amazing Fantasy #15, the 11 page "Kid Who Collects Spider-Man," the two part Death of Gwen Stacy, the two part "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" and the three part Master Planner Saga.

- Spider-Man isn't as well represented by TPB length stories as other superheroes. While stuff like Kraven's Last Hunt, The Death of Jean Dewolff or Spider-Man Blue is quite good, it's not on the level of Batman: Year One, nor is it clearly superior to other comics that make Top 100 lists.

- This is a big one. There are a lot of good Spider-Man stories and runs, but one result when people have different favorites is that the impact would be diminished. Fans who can appreciate silver age style—and some readers can't could still be divided—between those who prefer the unconventional Lee/ Ditko run, and those who prefer the dynamic Lee/ Romita run. Roger Stern's run is another much-enjoyed older comic that might appeal to readers who don't care for the modern cinematic style, but view the Silver Age as too dated. Slott's run has a modern self-referential take. If you like modern cinematic storytelling, you've got the regular Marvel Universe and the Ultimate books. In the classic universe, the JMS/ Romita Jr Amazing Spider-Man run is a different type of experience than Mark Millar's twelve issue Marvel Knights Spider-Man. Bendis's Ultimate Spider-Man has its own divide between the readers who liked following a teenage Peter Parker in the 21st Century, and those who think Miles Morales is a better personification of Spider-Man in the modern era. When a group of critics is trying to figure out what favorite works they have in common, it could be that most of them like Spider-Man, but not the same Spider-Man comics as the others.

If you're a fan of Captain America, the Winter Soldier arc is going to dominate a lot more.

- The best later Spider-Man runs aren't completely self-contained, and so many stories build on earlier material (which adds depth for long-time fans, but may make a work less accessible.) Peter David's 1980s run of Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man includes fill-ins, references events in other books, and is complicated by his occasional work on other Spider-Man titles at the time (Should the Commuter story, or Web of Spider-Man #13 count as part of that run?) DeMatteis's Harry Osborn saga touches on the robot parents. Roger Stern's Amazing Spider-Man is one of the best regarded runs, but it is somewhat incomplete, as major developments occur in Mantlo's Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man, while the Hobgoblin mystery is eventually taken over by other writers.

Kraven's Last Hunt featured a rematch between Spider-Man and a bad guy he had fought in one issue of Marvel Team-Up. A key scene was the funeral of a crook who had popped up in one issue. It was set shortly after Peter's marriage, at a time when he was traumatized by the death of his friend Ned Leeds.

Incidentally, I'd sure as hell include the following in my Top 100 comics (especially the way they did it with a mix of "graphic novels" and runs.)

1. Lee/ Ditko Amazing Spider-Man (somewhere in the top ten)
2. Roger Stern's Amazing Spider-Man (somewhere in the top twenty)
3. "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" (somewhere in the top twenty)
4. Kraven's Last Hunt
5. "Learning Curve" (Ultimate Spider-Man #8-13, although I can be persuaded to count the entire run.)

[Zeitgeist]

Kraven's Last Hunt or The Night Gwen Stacy Died should very much be in there somewhere, but the main "problem" here is that Spider-Man generally has never done self-contained storylines like Batman: Year One or The Killing Joke. In fact self-contained graphic novels have always been more of a DC thing, or so it's felt like anyway. This isn't a bad thing, it's just that Marvel Spider-Man has had their own wheelhouse, which is their sold focus being on long form storytelling - at least until more recent times.

[nose norton]

Born Again—a strong contender for the best Marvel comic ever—did not make the cut.

I find that to be much more shocking. The absence of SM stories can be explained by any combination of the reasons you explain, above Zeitgeist's post.

[JackDaw]

Actually I'm not surprised. There's a ton of good stories...Spider-Man has been consistently well written...but for me there's really a dearth of really outstanding stuff.

Take one that's nearly always quoted as a peak in Spider-Man tales..."Kraven's Last Hunt"....I can think of hundreds of tales featuring other heroes that I enjoyed more. For example...if you gave a 100 neutral readers that and Tim Truman's "Hawkworld" to read, I'd put down a fair bet that most would prefer "Hawkworld".

Mind you...to be fair...there's a fair few Spidey tales that I prefer to some in this particular top 100 list.

[nose norton]

if you gave a 100 neutral readers

And once you found them, you could also give them 100 unicorns, so they could ride to the end of the rainbow and live happily ever after, with their pot of gold.

[Scott Taylor]

Sounds like the list had alot of indies in it and didn't favor the big two like most lists. When you consider stuff like Will Eisner's best work and Asterios Polyp, Persepolis, Love and Rockets, Walking Dead, Invincible, and so on ... alot of superhero stuff becomes this weird little niche that just doesn't measure up.

I really can't think of many Spider-Man stories a non-fan can pick up and enjoy without any previous context. Even my favorite Spider-Man stories, like KLH, have multiple layers of meaning and development. But to someone reading it for the first time, that story could be a pretty mess. Torment is more of a "new reader" graphic novel than alot of the usual best Spider-Man stories.

Except Power and Responsibility/Learning Curve. I really think that is very new reader friendly.

[Stevo]

Even though 100 Great Graphic Novels of all tme isn't the same as 100 Great Comic Books of all time, I'd still find a way to stick the 1973 ASM Spidey/Goblin/Gwen arc in there somewhere, as that really was a GREAT moment in the history of comic storytelling. (I'd probably cheat a bit and shove MMW Spider-Man Vol 13 on to the list just to get the Turning Point in!)

I haven't seen the whole list of 100, but lists like those are usually subjective and I'm sure a lot of us could pick a lot of stuff to remove, add or scratch our heads at.

[trudreck]

spider-man is my favourite comic series bar none, but weirdly, i agree with this. i've always found it hard to explain to people who aren't plugged into the cape comics grind how incredible those jmd & sal buscema harry osborn issues are ... like a lot of others have said, i think even more than the X-MEN, spidey is the superhero soap opera in its purest form. as much as i personally consider lee/ditko or jms/romita jr. holy scripture, those comics don't seem to appeal to people who aren't already SPIDER-MAN fans ... whereas YEAR ONE, BORN AGAIN or even gosh dang CIVIL WAR seem to have a certain built-in accessibility &/or appeal.

i think spider-man always tops a 'best comic book character' list. but he doesn't have the library of classic stories that even the punisher or at this point hawkeye have.

personally if i made a list of the greatest comic book stories, number one would be EVERY ISSUE OF SPIDER-MAN COMICS EVER INCLUDING TERTIARY TITLES, followed by maybe morrison's NEW X-MEN or something.

[ViewtifulJC]

The thing about Spider-Man that keeps him out of lists like this is he's kinda greater than the sum of his parts. What I mean by that is the greatness of Spider-man comics isn't bundled up in the one-off stories(although I'm sure you and I can name plenty), but in the accumulation of events, sub-plots, supporting character interactions or stories, romantic entanglements, money issues, school, etc. Like if I recommend that Vulture two-parter from Roger Stern's run, you're not gonna get the full context of the Amy Powell/Lance Bannon sub-plot, or the impact of Mary-Jane coming back to the book, or the perspective to compare this to the opening Vulture story of Stern's run. There's not a self-contained, ever-green status to these stories like All-Star Superman, Born Again, Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, The Killing Joke, to name a few no doubt showing up on lists like this.

THAT SAID, this list is already irrelevant and invalidated because the greatest Marvel comics of all-time, Daredevil #227-233 aka Born Again, aren't on the list. And again, even THAT story isn't free from the constraints of being just one link in a never-ending chain. Matt doesn't get back together with Foggy at the end like you'd think, and it ends with a bunch of set-up for Captain America and stuff.

[Mister Mets]

The thing about Spider-Man that keeps him out of lists like this is he's kinda greater than the sum of his parts. What I mean by that is the greatness of Spider-man comics isn't bundled up in the one-off stories(although I'm sure you and I can name plenty), but in the accumulation of events, sub-plots, supporting character interactions or stories, romantic entanglements, money issues, school, etc. Like if I recommend that Vulture two-parter from Roger Stern's run, you're not gonna get the full context of the Amy Powell/Lance Bannon sub-plot, or the impact of Mary-Jane coming back to the book, or the perspective to compare this to the opening Vulture story of Stern's run. There's not a self-contained, ever-green status to these stories like All-Star Superman, Born Again, Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, The Killing Joke, to name a few no doubt showing up on lists like this.

THAT SAID, this list is already irrelevant and invalidated because the greatest Marvel comics of all-time, Daredevil #227-233 aka Born Again, aren't on the list. And again, even THAT story isn't free from the constraints of being just one link in a never-ending chain. Matt doesn't get back together with Foggy at the end like you'd think, and it ends with a bunch of set-up for Captain America and stuff.

That's a very good point.

Actually I'm not surprised. There's a ton of good stories...Spider-Man has been consistently well written...but for me there's really a dearth of really outstanding stuff.

Take one that's nearly always quoted as a peak in Spider-Man tales..."Kraven's Last Hunt"....I can think of hundreds of tales featuring other heroes that I enjoyed more. For example...if you gave a 100 neutral readers that and Tim Truman's "Hawkworld" to read, I'd put down a fair bet that most would prefer "Hawkworld".

Mind you...to be fair...there's a fair few Spidey tales that I prefer to some in this particular top 100 list.

Gotta agree with you on Hawkworld. And I like Kraven's Last Hunt.