Nighthawk Is Cancelled

[Tiamatty]

I liked one of the comments made on BC. "The standard of art across the B-List titles is something that really needs to be looked at". I've said it before but there are not enough quality artists around to attract enough readers. There were a quite a few comments regarding the quality of art in Nighthawk. Again I thought it was decent enough but failed to please enough readers.

But it's not about the quality of the art. It's about personal tastes. And I think the comment is also generalizing to a high degree, taking a couple examples and treating them as universal. Yes, Villalobos' art doesn't appeal to a lot of people. We'll add Greene (PM&IF) and Henderson (Squirrel Girl). Maybe Caldwell (the second arc of A-Force). I hate Ramos' art, but I'm not sure I'd call EXM a B-list title. Same with Bachalo on Dr. Strange, with the added note that Bachalo is a hugely popular artist. What other comics have art that's off-putting to the average reader? Aside from that handful of titles, the rest of Marvel's line feels like it's fairly non-offensive artwork. Some readers will like Acuna better than Silk's Ford, but then, some (me!) will enjoy Ford far more than Acuna. The same is true of the rest of the books. Some love Deodato, some hate him. Some people love Brittney Williams, some other people are wrong. Very much down to personal tastes.

So, no, I don't think the standard of art needs to be looked at. I thin the standard of art is very strong. Quite frankly, there are more B-list artists who I adore than A-list artists. I'll take Natacha Bustos over Mike Deodato every time. Keep Daniel Acuna, give me Takeshi Miyazawa.

[CentralPower]

I want to be more upset by this than I am. (But, considering that I actually dropped the series after issue 4, I am not even going to pretend to be sorry that "Nighthawk" is flying off in to the sunrise.)

Put simply, it is a terrible comics. At best, it is hipster-bait. This series has been a sad blend of "ripped from the headlines" realism, shallow polemics and Silver Age derp-factor.

David Walkers valid points about some readers choosing to stick with familiarity over trying something different, was spot on as far as established buying patters are concerned.

I was willing to try something different. I stuck around with "Nighthawk" because I am a Squadron fan. But, over the years, my pull-file has included plenty of non-standard comics (including indies). During "Secret Wars" some of my favourite tie-ins were series that only could have been published as part of the event, including heavily stylized stuff like "the Siege".

But, "Nighthawk" is not good. It piggy-backed on current events, and had nothing to add to the discussion (despite demanding a place at the table). In issue 4, the case against rioting is that it gives the police pretext, rather than the fact that rioting and looting serve to further terdify the neighborhoods that can least afford it.

The art and character design are being pitched to Cambridge types who think that comics should not be good (because "they r comix"). Despite some lovely cover art, the internal art looks too much like Crumb or Spiegelman (because that is what the Cambridge types like). The main character is dressed like a comic book hero, aside from the white high-top sneakers (because, that is uh, whimsical....)

*edit:
But, despite all that, Walker somehow managed to include derp-grade Silver Age elements like robot birds and a flying hawk-cycle. (A flying motorcycle has a place in some comics, but not a comic that is supposed to be real and polemical.)

I felt the art went with the title but I am bias as I love Ramon's work plus it's not often you get two people of color working on a character of color comic at the big two

Why should the race or gender of the writer even be a factor? Similarly, why should the race or gender of the character(s) be a factor?

Saying that "Nighthawk" is good for those reasons is just as bad as people dismissing "the Ultimates" as "the Diversity Avengers". (And, yes, I have heard the latter.) Along the same lines, people complained about Edmunson on "Red Wolf", but praised the series simply for it having a non-white lead. (I read and liked that series. But, if Edmunson screwed it up, I would not give the series praise just for it having a non-white lead.)

Faux-indie garbage is faux-indie garbage. Similarly, an articulate series with a solid high-concept is an articulate series with a solid high-concept.

This book was not apart of some SJW assimilation but Marvel trying to get new blood beyond using white males only.

There is a difference between having characters that are not all straight, white men and politicizing the gender and race of the characters. "Nighthawk" did the latter.

This Squadron franchise thing turned out to be a big failure for Marvel. They should have wait to see how Squadron Supreme is doing before initiating Hyperion and Nighthawk series, guess they just didn't expect SS series to be that exceptionally bad.

*sigh*

The main Squadron series has been lacking. The last few issues have been good. But, they should have been out months ago. I am not sure if the problem is Robinson losing his footing or problems higher up at Marvel. But, "Squadron Supreme" has suffered for a lack of focus. It is not terrible, and there have been signs of direction from the beginning. But, the lack of focus has hindered this series.

"Hyperion" was a promising series. It played with classic Squadron elements (such as the degree of action that is appropriate to take), but did something different with them (a gun-shy Superman). At the very least, I would like to see what Wendig had planned for that series. But, poor sales are a foe that cannot be defeated by truth without compromise, thought without error and all things for the better of the whole.

they shouldn't have killed namor, killed innocent atlanteans, and then pretended to be heroes after that. That was squadron's mistake, it pissed off a lot of people without technically appealing to many.

Fans need to understand that there is a difference between the characters doing bad things and a series being bad.

But because I did it that way, my purchases basically didn't matter. I didn't order it three months in advance when I knew nothing about it, so picking it up a week later means it didn't count. It helped my LCS, but it didn't help the book itself at all.

It would have impacted orders for issue issue 3 or 4. That kind of turn around has been a problem with comics for as long as there have been comics shops. (If anything, it is probably less a problem now because the feedback loop is shorter.)

The simple fact is that most reliable comic readers are going to order their comics in advance based on creative teams or cast. Buzz can help. But, there is only so much buzz to go around. And, that buzz has to move readers *before* the comics shops place their orders.

[MindofShadow]

Nighthawk's cancellation also started a bit of a conversation over a huge problem with the current distribution system: Pre-orders are everything. People are required to order a book basically on blind faith. And when it's a lesser-known character, by a creative team who aren't big names? How many people will commit to that? It's a shitty set-up. Nighthawk had poor pre-orders, because no **** it did. I didn't pre-order it, either, though I did start picking it up after reading a digital copy of the first issue. But because I did it that way, my purchases basically didn't matter. I didn't order it three months in advance when I knew nothing about it, so picking it up a week later means it didn't count. It helped my LCS, but it didn't help the book itself at all.

And that is so stupid. It's a terrible model, and it penalizes any book that isn't already a proven-seller.

They aren't everyone because of digital sales. Digital sales do not operate on that same model

[MindofShadow]

Could they meet in a Punisher book?

I would love to see a team up with the two.

Be a good way to compare and contrast two people who's MO are rather similar.

[MindofShadow]

Anyone familiar with Nighthawk as written by JMS, would have known what to expect from David Walker's take on the same character.

We don't live in a subtle world so I personally don't expect to see anything subtle in a fictional book steeped in real world societal dysfunction.

Metaphorical explorations of said societal dysfunction, discrimination and associated subjects, abound in the X-verse for those who dig "subtle" but for those of us who'd like to see actual issues in their books, Nighthawk was a welcome addition to the mainstream MU inhabited by the likes of Moon Knight and Frank Castle.

Speaking of Castle, I would have loved to have seen Nighthawk and the Punisher meet at some point.

I suppose that'll never happen now.

Nighthawk meeting Punisher, Sam, Cage, or hell... even Nighthawk meeting T'challa or for some reason going to Wakanda would have been interesting as hell.

[Marvell2100]

I'm stunned that all the new readers Marvel is bringing in didn't push this book far out of cancellation range. All I see here are the same
old excuses for not supporting the book by some of the very people demanding minority-led books. Same thing will happen to Mosaic, and
blame will again be placed everywhere except where it should be placed.

So where should the blame be placed then? Do you blame non-minorities when white male heterosexual books fail?

[Michael Watkins]

all I know is that I've supported every book that Nighthawk has appeared regularly. Blue Marvel was the other character I was most excited to see Nighthawk interact with.

[MyriVerse]

It would be entirely unrealistic for them not to go after Namor. They were brought together because of shared hatred of Namor's Cabal. He should not have aligned with Thanos. He admitted it and Doom agreed. He brought this on himself.

Destroying those Earths was probably the best thing he ever did in his entire existence.

[Michael Watkins]

Destroying those Earths was probably the best thing he ever did in his entire existence.

eh. I'd say that fighting on the side of the Allies during WWII ranks a big higher. I might even rank his attempt to hit on Sue at Reed's funeral a bit higher.

[neonrideraryeh]

I'm enjoying Squadron Supreme, but they should have waited to grow it as a franchise before having books spinoff from it. If they continue with Squadron for a while (and I hope they do), then maybe they could try expanding it, but it's too soon at the moment.

Also I was turned off from Nighthawk by the art. I was interested in the concept for the series, but sometimes bad art can be a real dealbreaker.

[Rumble]

To echo a few others,

There was some thread about the Squadron Supreme a few months ago, talking about the unusual art direction (which is my way of sawing gawd awful, but i know everyone has their tastes) and their even more peculiar (i.e. bad) plot direction.

I said back then that Nighthawk was screwed, and I was talking about his solo that hadn't even come out yet.

If Nighthawk (and Hyperion) were going to succeed, then SS needed to give them the needed alley-oop in the months prior by being everything the team was hyped up to be in Avengers #0. Without that, just didn't feel there was any buzz for the character as he wasn't really appearing anywhere else to get people excited for him like that. Still, I bought every issue.

[Marvell2100]

To echo a few others,

There was some thread about the Squadron Supreme a few months ago, talking about the unusual art direction (which is my way of sawing gawd awful, but i know everyone has their tastes) and their even more peculiar (i.e. bad) plot direction.

I said back then that Nighthawk was screwed, and I was talking about his solo that hadn't even come out yet.

If Nighthawk (and Hyperion) were going to succeed, then SS needed to give them the needed alley-oop in the months prior by being everything the team was hyped up to be in Avengers #0. Without that, just didn't feel there was any buzz for the character as he wasn't really appearing anywhere else to get people excited for him like that. Still, I bought every issue.

Part of the problem too was that Nighthawk's title seemed cut off from the rest of the MU. These series have to be firmly rooted with what's happening currently in the MU.

Who's side would Nighthawk be on in CWII? Carol's would seem a no-brainer but would he just see it as another form of profiling?

[Pat Thomas]

So where should the blame be placed then? Do you blame non-minorities when white male heterosexual books fail?

I blame the publisher for putting out a book without demand to sustain it. It would be stupid of Marvel to put out a Wonder Man book
right now, too, even though I would be thrilled. But if they did, I would damn sure buy it and encourage my fellow Simon fans to buy
the book for awhile whether or not they like it. Alterations can always be made as the story goes along, but if readership drops by half
after the first issue because somebody who asked for it doesn't like something about it, it's not really being supported by the people
who clamor for these books in the first place. It's not always easy or enjoyable to pursue a cause, but that is required to successfully
instigate change. Everything else is just hot air and playing victim.

[Marvell2100]

I blame the publisher for putting out a book without demand to sustain it. It would be stupid of Marvel to put out a Wonder Man book
right now, too, even though I would be thrilled. But if they did, I would damn sure buy it and encourage my fellow Simon fans to buy
the book for awhile whether or not they like it. Alterations can always be made as the story goes along, but if readership drops by half
after the first issue because somebody who asked for it doesn't like something about it, it's not really being supported by the people
who clamor for these books in the first place. It's not always easy or enjoyable to pursue a cause, but that is required to successfully
instigate change. Everything else is just hot air and playing victim.

Marvel also put out Ms Marvel, Squirrel Girl which no one was demanding. Thanos is getting a solo as well that no one seems to be clamoring for.

This is the thing. If a publisher is going to put out a title, then they better back it with a quality creative team and good story-telling, regardless of the character's race, religion, gender or sexual orientation. Don't put out dreck under the guise of diversity and expect people to buy it.

[Michael Watkins]

Part of the problem too was that Nighthawk's title seemed cut off from the rest of the MU. These series have to be firmly rooted with what's happening currently in the MU.

Who's side would Nighthawk be on in CWII? Carol's would seem a no-brainer but would he just see it as another form of profiling?

option C) he's always on his own side. he's going to try to get to Ulysses so that he has the edge; as opposed to the mainstream heroes.