View Poll Results: whats up with Superman ?

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  • bad story telling ?

    32 74.42%
  • bad casting

    1 2.33%
  • not following the comics ?

    10 23.26%
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  1. #46
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeP View Post
    How about a hero that does the right thing consistently, regardless of public opinion? A superhero who's very existence throws everything we know into question, causing massive repercussions with his very actions, and yet that does not deter him from helping everyone he can? That hero would NOT be happy all the time, but he is a hell of a lot more interesting then the Superman you describe.
    More interesting to whom? Certainly not the generations who grew up with the George Reeves/ Christopher Reeve/ Dean Cain Superman. Frankly I am more looking forward to the Tyler Hoechlin Superman than I am to any more of the Snyder version of Superman.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    That makes no sense at all. Why exactly does the entire world hate Superman all of a sudden? In past incarnations Superman was a beloved character to the entire world. What exactly is there to hate about him? So basically Snyder sets up a false world where people hate Superman to give Snyder the excuse to make Superman sullen and morose.
    First? Not everyone does hate him. There's a big ol' statue in the middle of Metropolis that will attest to that. As do all the images of people damn near worshipping him.

    Second? He was at least indirectly involved in the destruction of Metropolis. That showed people exactly what it would look like if Superman every turned his power against them. That scares oeople.

    Third? The world is most definitely NOT false. I guarantee you, if Superman appeared in our world tomorrow, he would NOT be universally loved and adored.

    Human beings fear what they don't understand. We DOUBLY fear things we don't understand and can't control. Superman is all that and far more. He would terrify people in the real world, no matter how shiny his smile is.

    The world's reaction to him is completely believable, and Superman's reaction to this reaction is equally believable. Well it is for any version of Superman who is striving for ANY semblance of human behavior.

    Superman was only a beloved characterto the entire world in past incarnations because the writers of past incarnations decided to write him into a fantasy world where the human race is a VERY different human race from the race that actually inhabits this world.

    Finally? The point is to have Superman rise above this stuff and become the character you want to see. So, no, Snyder didn't create this world just to make Superman sullen and morose. It was NEVER the plan for him to be sullen and morose forever.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    More interesting to whom? Certainly not the generations who grew up with the George Reeves/ Christopher Reeve/ Dean Cain Superman. Frankly I am more looking forward to the Tyler Hoechlin Superman than I am to any more of the Snyder version of Superman.
    Box office numbers and home video sakes would seem to suggest that plenty of people are interested in this version of Superman, and I guarantee you, a lot of them grew up with the versions of which you are talking.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  4. #49
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Box office numbers and home video sakes would seem to suggest that plenty of people are interested in this version of Superman, and I guarantee you, a lot of them grew up with the versions of which you are talking.
    If we are going by adjusted for inflation the Christopher Reeves Superman had a bigger box office, and spawned three sequels. Snyder's Superman has yet to get a sequel and the only way they could get people to watch him this time was to bring Batman and Wonder Woman into the story. Plus George Reeves Superman lasted four seasons and would have gone on longer if not for Reeves dying. And Lois & Clark also lasted four seasons. So we get one mediocre Snyder Superman movie that didn't do much better than the poorly done Brandon Routh Superman and this is proof people like this version of Superman? Plus for TV Tyler Hoechlin will be playing a Superman that harkens back to the Christopher Reeve Superman, proof that people are distancing themselves as far away from Snyder's Superman as possible.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Snyder's Superman has yet to get a sequel
    BvS is Superman's Movie. the same way X-men 1 through 3 are called X-men but are Wolverine Movies.

    and the only way they could get people to watch him this time was to bring Batman and Wonder Woman into the story.
    That was Snyder's decision not some knee jerk "Superman isn't popular" reaction.

    So we get one mediocre Snyder Superman movie that didn't do much better than the poorly done Brandon Routh Superman
    This is some epic bullshit.
    MoS made 668, Returns made 391. Adjusted for inflation, apparently MoS just barely beat Return by minuscule 217 million dollar margin.

    Plus for TV Tyler Hoechlin will be playing a Superman that harkens back to the Christopher Reeve Superman, proof that people are distancing themselves as far away from Snyder's Superman as possible.
    Superman needs to smile more amirite?

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Every word I wrote was correct unless you can prove that Snyder was lying about taking Superman through a journey, or if you can prove that people do go grinning through life when the entire world hates them, or if you can prove that I'm lying about all those moments where he DID show genuine happiness in the movies.

    Angel is INFAMOUS for his brooding ways. To the point where he jokes about it himself in later seasons. Just like Superman, he has moments of upbeat attitude, and looooong moments of being dark, broody, and wracked with guilt or rage.
    So we agree that Superman is being written like a broody guilt ridden undead with great hair.

    good to know


    If you are counting sheer number of upbeat moments? You may recall that Angel has many hours of collective screen time compared to Clark's handful of collective hours?
    That's true. BVS only FEELS like you've been sitting through it for days.


    I like the idea of watching him evolve into Superman. I don't find him needlessly depressing or broody. I see him as a man who is going through some tough times. I see him as a man who has put his life on the line to protect innocent people. I see him as a man who learned from his past mistakes and DIED to protect people, even when they were giving him no reason at all to feel any loyalty to them.

    Was I happy and proud when he turned himself over to Zod, rather than endanger the Earth? Yep. Was I happy and proud when he fought to defend us once it was clear to him what Zod would do to us? Yep. Was I happy and proud when he went on to continue saving people, without thought of recognition or reward? Yep. Was I happy and proud to see that he tried to stand up for the people of Gotham by confronting an increasingly out-of-control Batman? Yep. Was I happy and proud to see him save the life of the man who just tried to force him to murder a man for his amusement? Yep. Was I happy and proud to see him learn from his past mistakes and try to take Doomsday FAR away from potential civilian casualties? Yep. Was I happy and proud to see him willingly take a nuclear blast (which he had no reason to believe he could survive) in order to stop Doomsday? Yep. Was I happy and proud when he endangered his own life in order to stop Doomsday and was willing to die to save the world? Yep. Was I happy and proud to see that his noble death finally showed the world that they were wrong about him? Yep. Was I happy and proud to see him literally save Batman's soul and bring him back to being the hero he's supposed to be? Yep. Was I happy and proud to see Batman and Wonder Woman go off to establish the Justice League in his honor? Yep.

    He's not the perfect Superman. Yet. But he's getting there, and he's already done a lot of the things that Superman is supposed to do.
    Except be fun to watch. :P
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Box office numbers and home video sakes would seem to suggest that plenty of people are interested in this version of Superman, and I guarantee you, a lot of them grew up with the versions of which you are talking.
    For a person who agressively demands evidence, you seem eager to guarantee what cannot be proved
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  8. #53

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    I like Superman in Man of Steel, didn't come out as depressed (more than half the movie) and boring.
    BvS tried to be too deep, and it wasted what was supposed to be deep, and Superman still being cheerful in actually deeper storylines like All Star Superman.

    The writing and characterization in that movie is all around bad.
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  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    If we are going by adjusted for inflation the Christopher Reeves Superman had a bigger box office, and spawned three sequels. Snyder's Superman has yet to get a sequel and the only way they could get people to watch him this time was to bring Batman and Wonder Woman into the story.
    His sequel is in active development as we speak. If the rumors are true, they may even have a director picked out already. (Spoiler: It's not Snyder.)

    Bringing in Batman and Wonder Woman was about DC trying to rush as many characters out as possible in order to compete with Marvel. Had nothing to do with box office for MOS.

    Plus George Reeves Superman lasted four seasons and would have gone on longer if not for Reeves dying. And Lois & Clark also lasted four seasons.
    You're missing one.

    Smallville also featured a flawed Clark Kent who had his moments of depression and despair. He also went on a journey to become Superman and wasn't the perfect Superman throughout the show.

    How many seasons did Smallville last, again? Oh, yeah. TEN. And it could've easily gone longer, if the showrunners hadn't simply decided that it was time to end it.

    So we get one mediocre Snyder Superman movie that didn't do much better than the poorly done Brandon Routh Superman and this is proof people like this version of Superman?
    Unholyrevenger72 already answered this issue. MOS made WAY more than Returns.

    Plus for TV Tyler Hoechlin will be playing a Superman that harkens back to the Christopher Reeve Superman, proof that people are distancing themselves as far away from Snyder's Superman as possible.
    Or? Proof that DC is being smart and using the fact that they HAVE multiple iterations of their characters and universes to provide people with a wide variety of options in their superhero entertainment.

    And how, exactly, do you know Hoechlin won't totally drop the ball and make everyone hate his Superman performance? And even if he doesn't? He's only going to be in a handful of episodes unless they really want to be accused of using SuperMAN to steal the spot light from SuperGIRL.

    Also? The plan was always for Zack Snyder's version of Superman to BECOME more like the version we'll be getting from Hoechlin. That fact is not going to go away just because you refuse to acknowledge it. Snyder's version IS like Hoechlin's version. The only difference is you actually get to SEE Snyder's version develop into this, whereas Hoechlin's version just shows up exactly as he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    So we agree that Superman is being written like a broody guilt ridden undead with great hair.

    good to know
    Both characters are written as human beings with a wide range of emotions on a journey toward self-improvement.

    That's true. BVS only FEELS like you've been sitting through it for days.
    To you.

    Except be fun to watch. :P
    I found it very fun watching Superman throw down with a maniacal general, standing up to a borderline insane Batman for the people of Gotham, saving Lex Luthor from his own monster, and slugging it out with Doomsday.

    Of course, then again, I like character development and a Superman who acts like a human being, rather than an infallible god with only one emotional state. So what do I know?
    Last edited by Vanguard-01; 08-31-2016 at 07:19 AM.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    It's interesting to see how very little it takes to get a fictional character labeled as "unlikeable." I can get wanting a more traditional, bright version of Superman in place of what we got, especially as Cavill seems more than capable of playing it if he were allowed. But if having self doubt in tough times is all it takes to make you unlikeable, than every person on the planet is an asshole for having feelings.

  11. #56
    Tin Man MikeP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    That makes no sense at all. Why exactly does the entire world hate Superman all of a sudden? In past incarnations Superman was a beloved character to the entire world. What exactly is there to hate about him? So basically Snyder sets up a false world where people hate Superman to give Snyder the excuse to make Superman sullen and morose.
    Well, firstly, the entire world did NOT hate him. A large demographic, for sure, but certainly not everyone. He was well loved by a great many people.
    If you paid attention during Man of Steel, then you would have seen how his introduction to the world coincided with an invasion of other Kryptonians. The result of their invasion, despite Superman's best efforts, is a large section of Metropolis being reduced to rubble along with quite a few deaths.

    So that explains the demographic that distrusts and hates him.

    More interesting to whom? Certainly not the generations who grew up with the George Reeves/ Christopher Reeve/ Dean Cain Superman. Frankly I am more looking forward to the Tyler Hoechlin Superman than I am to any more of the Snyder version of Superman.
    I'm of the generation that grew up with Reeve/Dean Cain, and I find him more interesting. I love Christoper Reeve, but his Superman didn't have to go through the growing pains that this one does. Cavill Superman was not greeted with applause and universal love.

    So that is far more interesting to me.
    Life is but a dream

  12. #57
    Tin Man MikeP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's interesting to see how very little it takes to get a fictional character labeled as "unlikeable." I can get wanting a more traditional, bright version of Superman in place of what we got, especially as Cavill seems more than capable of playing it if he were allowed. But if having self doubt in tough times is all it takes to make you unlikeable, than every person on the planet is an asshole for having feelings.
    Apparently, most people who call him Emo superman have no idea how an actual emo acts.
    Life is but a dream

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Francisco's Avatar
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    He was way too broody with little contrast to his personality. He seemed only able to smile when Lois was around. He couldn't speak on his own. He only listened to what others had to say. His whole characterization was bland and uninspired in BvS. Cavill got so sub utilized he barely had any lines and was only allowed to have a single expression on his face.

    Yeah it is interesting for a character to be challenged and to have to grow up and develop but it has to be done in an interesting way. You can't pretend that we wait for 3 or 4 movies before we get to see a wholesome Superman. All his scenes of rescues were uninspired, they felt like chores. Boxes that needed to be filled so they could say they were making a Superman movie. It was all about Superman posing but never interacting with anyone not named Lois Lane. Then he gets killed in the most uninspiring dull way possible so Batman could have the chance to stand all broody and cool at a graveyard while speechifying.
    "By force of will he turns his gaze upon the seething horror bellow us on the hillside.
    Yes, he feels the icy touch of fear, but he is not cowed. He is Superman!"

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    He was way too broody with little contrast to his personality. He seemed only able to smile when Lois was around. He couldn't speak on his own. He only listened to what others had to say. His whole characterization was bland and uninspired in BvS. Cavill got so sub utilized he barely had any lines and was only allowed to have a single expression on his face.

    Yeah it is interesting for a character to be challenged and to have to grow up and develop but it has to be done in an interesting way. You can't pretend that we wait for 3 or 4 movies before we get to see a wholesome Superman. All his scenes of rescues were uninspired, they felt like chores. Boxes that needed to be filled so they could say they were making a Superman movie. It was all about Superman posing but never interacting with anyone not named Lois Lane. Then he gets killed in the most uninspiring dull way possible so Batman could have the chance to stand all broody and cool at a graveyard while speechifying.
    He smiled with his mother, at some people at the bar he was working in during MoS, at General Swanick, upon learning his Kryptonian name while talking to hologram!Jor-El, and when he was learning to fly. Pretty sure he was smiling when he rescued that Mexican girl from the burning building before the fawning crowds started to make him uneasy.

    I do agree that the next movie needs to cut the BS and make him the fully formed Superman once and for all so that the director for the MoS sequel doesn't have to deal with it, though.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    First? Not everyone does hate him. There's a big ol' statue in the middle of Metropolis that will attest to that. As do all the images of people damn near worshipping him.

    Second? He was at least indirectly involved in the destruction of Metropolis. That showed people exactly what it would look like if Superman every turned his power against them. That scares oeople.

    Third? The world is most definitely NOT false. I guarantee you, if Superman appeared in our world tomorrow, he would NOT be universally loved and adored.

    Human beings fear what they don't understand. We DOUBLY fear things we don't understand and can't control. Superman is all that and far more. He would terrify people in the real world, no matter how shiny his smile is.

    The world's reaction to him is completely believable, and Superman's reaction to this reaction is equally believable. Well it is for any version of Superman who is striving for ANY semblance of human behavior.

    Superman was only a beloved characterto the entire world in past incarnations because the writers of past incarnations decided to write him into a fantasy world where the human race is a VERY different human race from the race that actually inhabits this world.

    Finally? The point is to have Superman rise above this stuff and become the character you want to see. So, no, Snyder didn't create this world just to make Superman sullen and morose. It was NEVER the plan for him to be sullen and morose forever.
    a good example would be the final two eps of STAS. supes gets kidnapped by darkseid, brainwashed into thinking he's his son, and turned on earth at the head of a invading army. at the end, the world has lost trust in superman because, despite the fact that he was brainwashed, he still turned against them and that scares them. he spent a long time trying to get the world to trust him again and they did, for the most part. but just look at dr. hamilton for this. he was once superman's closest ally, next to lois and dan turpin. after that whole mess, not only did he fear superman, he worked actively with cadmus to bring him down, along with the league, simply because they saw him a threat.

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