Scarlet blood drops on the stone - Kaine the Scarlet Spider (and Hummingbird) appreciation

[dddaaavvv]

I really like Scarlet Spider and Hummingbird. That series was quite possibly one of the best Marvel books ever. I wish it had lasted longer. I like the contrast between the two characters in their personality but they still care for each other. It's like a more interesting version of Wolverine's protege girls :P

Scarlet Spider had some popularity but not enough to sustain the book. I have my ideas about why it didn't catch:

1. Kaine was not very sympathetic or relatable. He didn't evoke empathy or emotional identification from the reader. From the little I have gathered about the book, the authors were going for a detached tone in the book. Comedic rather than dramatic. Action rather than intimacy. From what I've seen a superhero comic needs to have a mixture of ALL these things to keep readers hooked. He was a sympathetic character in Spider-man and he had some popularity as a hero within the tone of the Spidey franchise. Perhaps a new book with a different tone would work.

2. "All of the Power, None of the Responsibility" A good hook for the first issue, but the premise kind of locked the authors into a course that was hard to change. Also, to me, "All of the Power, None of the Responsibility" might affect the way readers would respond to the "hero."

3. I started a thread "How To Make a Peter Clone/Gwen Clone Relationship Successful" which in part addresses Kaine and this issue. I would appreciate any ideas members might have to possibly start up a NEW Kaine comic. You are cordially invited to come to this thread and discuss how to make another Scarlet Spider comic work.

[neonrideraryeh]

Does anybody think that Kaine will ever reconcile with the supporting cast he had or have they been written out for good and Kaine will just stick with his New Warriors teammates?

Also, my head-canon is that the first Pokémon movie with Mewtwo is one of Kaine's favourite movies because he will totally empathise with the whole clone angle of going from enemy to good guy. He probably didn't want to see the film at first when Aracely suggested it but then he definitely teared up a little when Mewtwo learned the big lesson. This hasn't happened on panel but I believe it has happened!

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Scarlet Spider had some popularity but not enough to sustain the book. I have my ideas about why it didn't catch:

1. Kaine was not very sympathetic or relatable. He didn't evoke empathy or emotional identification from the reader. From the little I have gathered about the book, the authors were going for a detached tone in the book. Comedic rather than dramatic. Action rather than intimacy. From what I've seen a superhero comic needs to have a mixture of ALL these things to keep readers hooked. He was a sympathetic character in Spider-man and he had some popularity as a hero within the tone of the Spidey franchise. Perhaps a new book with a different tone would work.

2. "All of the Power, None of the Responsibility" A good hook for the first issue, but the premise kind of locked the authors into a course that was hard to change. Also, to me, "All of the Power, None of the Responsibility" might affect the way readers would respond to the "hero."

3. I started a thread "How To Make a Peter Clone/Gwen Clone Relationship Successful" which in part addresses Kaine and this issue. I would appreciate any ideas members might have to possibly start up a NEW Kaine comic. You are cordially invited to come to this thread and discuss how to make another Scarlet Spider comic work.

I don't think any of those were it. I'm definitely sure it's not number 1. As Kaine was actually written somewhat sympathetic while not ignoring that he used to be a villain.

[classicgmer]

Scarlet Spider had some popularity but not enough to sustain the book. I have my ideas about why it didn't catch:

1. Kaine was not very sympathetic or relatable. He didn't evoke empathy or emotional identification from the reader. From the little I have gathered about the book, the authors were going for a detached tone in the book. Comedic rather than dramatic. Action rather than intimacy. From what I've seen a superhero comic needs to have a mixture of ALL these things to keep readers hooked. He was a sympathetic character in Spider-man and he had some popularity as a hero within the tone of the Spidey franchise. Perhaps a new book with a different tone would work.

2. "All of the Power, None of the Responsibility" A good hook for the first issue, but the premise kind of locked the authors into a course that was hard to change. Also, to me, "All of the Power, None of the Responsibility" might affect the way readers would respond to the "hero."

3. I started a thread "How To Make a Peter Clone/Gwen Clone Relationship Successful" which in part addresses Kaine and this issue. I would appreciate any ideas members might have to possibly start up a NEW Kaine comic. You are cordially invited to come to this thread and discuss how to make another Scarlet Spider comic work.

I really don't agree with any of this & really I think people are just going to have to readjust their expectations for how long they expect series to last in today's market. (especially solo ongoings) The days of the 80's & 90's where just about any character could have series numbering anywhere #'s 50-100 are loooooooong gone & they're not coming back so I think # 26 issues is a very respectable run with the market we have today.

Not saying every aspect of Yost's run was absolute perfection & couldn't have been improved upon in any way BUT I just don't think anything he might have done differently would extend the book's shelf life significantly.

[classicgmer]

Does anybody think that Kaine will ever reconcile with the supporting cast he had or have they been written out for good and Kaine will just stick with his New Warriors teammates?

Also, my head-canon is that the first Pokémon movie with Mewtwo is one of Kaine's favourite movies because he will totally empathise with the whole clone angle of going from enemy to good guy. He probably didn't want to see the film at first when Aracely suggested it but then he definitely teared up a little when Mewtwo learned the big lesson. This hasn't happened on panel but I believe it has happened!

Unless Kaine gets another crack at a solo ongoing (or maybe a mini) I don't think we'll be seeing much of Donald, Wally or Annabelle or any of the others in his ongoing & his interactions will mainly be with the rest of the New Warriors for the foreseeable future. (probably some interactions with some other Spider folk in Spiderverse as well.)

[MarioHerald]

Unless Kaine gets another crack at a solo ongoing (or maybe a mini) I don't think we'll be seeing much of Donald, Wally or Annabelle or any of the others in his ongoing & his interactions will mainly be with the rest of the New Warriors for the foreseeable future. (probably some interactions with some other Spider folk in Spiderverse as well.)

Actually, I kinda remember Yost saying he had plans of Kaine going back to Houston.

EDIT: I found it:

"I have kaine's return to houston planned out, but who knows if the opportunity will arise #clutch".

https://twitter.com/yost/status/441414413371703296

However, it is tied to New Warriors sales: if New Warriors goes long enough, we will see it.

[classicgmer]

Actually, I kinda remember Yost saying he had plans for Kaine going back to Houston.

Hmmmmmm I know he said if New Warriors makes it beyond twelve issues (which honestly doesn't really look to likely right now) we'd be getting more focus on Kaine & some of the stuff from the Scarlet Spider solo (most likely the Aztec/Aracely stuff) so I guess that could take him back to Houston but I still don't suspect we'd see too much of his supporting cast....I could be wrong though.

[Chobbly]

Hmmmmmm I know he said if New Warriors makes it beyond twelve issues (which honestly doesn't really look to likely right now) we'd be getting more focus on Kaine & some of the stuff from the Scarlet Spider solo (most likely the Aztec/Aracely stuff) so I guess that could take him back to Houston but I still don't suspect we'd see too much of his supporting cast....I could be wrong though.

We've already seen a snippet of the supporting cast in Amazing Spider-Man #1 though, which was great to read. Good to see what those around Kaine thought of him in his absence and what happened to Donald Meland after the run-in with the Kravinoffs.

As for New Warriors, I'm still hopeful that it can settle down and run for a while. Launching any new title seems difficult from the get go, especially in recent years as iterations of X-Men and Avengers seem to be what sells, and everything else gets squeezed out. New Warriors is a good title, with a proper old-school vibe to it, and I hope more people give it a chance.

To pick up on dddaaavvv's comments, I think some of your points about Kaine could also be levelled at many other characters. Wolverine, for example, is as moody as Kaine and has similar anger-management issues. For me, Kaine's struggles with his past, anger and self-loathing were one of the more interesting aspects of the title; can a broken man heal himself? The answer throughout Scarlet Spider (to me) was largely no - not without the help of others. It was during Kaine's interactions with Aracely, Anabelle, Donald and Wally that you saw the good part of Kaine coming through. Despite himself in many ways there was part of him, that Parker-ness, which try as he might he couldn't get rid of. He needed to be around people, whether it was the supporting cast in Scarlet Spider or now in New Warriors.

[Pav]

Does anybody think that Kaine will ever reconcile with the supporting cast he had or have they been written out for good and Kaine will just stick with his New Warriors teammates?

Actually, I kinda remember Yost saying he had plans of Kaine going back to Houston:

"I have kaine's return to houston planned out, but who knows if the opportunity will arise #clutch".

https://twitter.com/yost/status/441414413371703296

However, it is tied to New Warriors sales: if New Warriors goes long enough, we will see it.

Kaine's supporting cast will, I imagine, go the way of so many other non-powered characters introduced over the years. The fact of the matter is that some characters don't have the luxury of a tried-and-true status quo; a character like Kaine might be kept in use by future writers, but I think we can agree that Dr. Donald Meland isn't necessary to a Kaine-centric storyline. Future writers will likely introduce new supporting characters, just as they'll introduce new plots and settings.

That being said, the fact that Yost has plans to incorporate some of his plots from Scarlet Spider into New Warriors bodes well for the non-powered cast of SS. My guess is the focus will be on the mythological stuff concerning Aracely and/or the crime-boss(?) Clutch. But maybe we'll see Annabelle (who dated Clutch?). Or maybe Officer Layton will appear for a few panels when the cops arrive during a super fight. My guess is, if they appear, it might be for the last time.

-Pav, who will point to examples like Chris Powell's family or Rick Sheridan's girlfriend...

PS/Edit:

We've already seen a snippet of the supporting cast in Amazing Spider-Man #1 though, which was great to read. Good to see what those around Kaine thought of him in his absence and what happened to Donald Meland after the run-in with the Kravinoffs.

Oh really? Do tell. What's new with Wally and Donald?

[Chobbly]

Kaine's supporting cast will, I imagine, go the way of so many other non-powered characters introduced over the years. The fact of the matter is that some characters don't have the luxury of a tried-and-true status quo; a character like Kaine might be kept in use by future writers, but I think we can agree that Dr. Donald Meland isn't necessary to a Kaine-centric storyline. Future writers will likely introduce new supporting characters, just as they'll introduce new plots and settings.

That being said, the fact that Yost has plans to incorporate some of his plots from Scarlet Spider into New Warriors bodes well for the non-powered cast of SS. My guess is the focus will be on the mythological stuff concerning Aracely and/or the crime-boss(?) Clutch. But maybe we'll see Annabelle (who dated Clutch?). Or maybe Officer Layton will appear for a few panels when the cops arrive during a super fight. My guess is, if they appear, it might be for the last time.

-Pav, who will point to examples like Chris Powell's family or Rick Sheridan's girlfriend...

You may well be right re the supporting cast, depending on who is writing it. I always got the impression that Clutch was more a super-powered psycopath (Carnage level of insanity) rather than a crime boss but hopefully we'll see. The supporting cast were something special in Scarlet Spider - Wally and Donald were always written well and avoided falling into stereotypes, and Anabelle's story was ripe for telling but never got fully told.

Oh really? Do tell. What's new with Wally and Donald?

We don't find anything else out about Wally, but the main thing the small vignette reveals is that Donald survived almost being gutted by Ana Kravinoff. Donald overhears Peter Parker outside the Four Seasons Hotel, recognises the voice and explains to Peter what sort of man Kaine actually was - in Donald's words, "He's out there, believing that he's a monster... when in fact he's anything but." It's written by Chris Yost as well so it's got same feel and the art team do a nice job with it too.

[classicgmer]

You may well be right re the supporting cast, depending on who is writing it. I always got the impression that Clutch was more a super-powered psycopath (Carnage level of insanity) rather than a crime boss but hopefully we'll see. The supporting cast were something special in Scarlet Spider - Wally and Donald were always written well and avoided falling into stereotypes, and Anabelle's story was ripe for telling but never got fully told.



We don't find anything else out about Wally, but the main thing the small vignette reveals is that Donald survived almost being gutted by Ana Kravinoff. Donald overhears Peter Parker outside the Four Seasons Hotel, recognises the voice and explains to Peter what sort of man Kaine actually was - in Donald's words, "He's out there, believing that he's a monster... when in fact he's anything but." It's written by Chris Yost as well so it's got same feel and the art team do a nice job with it too.

You wouldn't happen to have a scan of this would you? (or anybody who could provide that)

[classicgmer]

Also what does everyone think the chances of Kaine getting a crack another solo at some point down the road? Personally I thought 26 issues for a booking starring Kaine exceeded most people's expectations & some of Marvel's other properties have done worse then that & gotten second chances relatively quickly so why not Kaine?

[MarioHerald]

You wouldn't happen to have a scan of this would you? (or anybody who could provide that)

I will look through the net to see if I can find one. (Don't have a scanner, sorry).

Also what does everyone think the chances of Kaine getting a crack another solo at some point down the road? Personally I thought 26 issues for a booking starring Kaine exceeded most people's expectations & some of Marvel's other properties have done worse then that & gotten second chances relatively quickly so why not Kaine?

I could definitely see one coming up after New Warriors (whether this comic is cancelled early or hopefully not). I have found some early interviews of Scarlet Spider and it really seems that there was a lot more planned for Houston (even supporting characters that were ultimately not introduced).

http://www.freepresshouston.com/fph-...-ryan-stegman/

However, if it were up to me, any new relaunch would be called "Scarlet Spider & Hummingbird" and it would not be a "solo", but a "duo" book. :P

[Loulou]

I will look through the net to see if I can find one. (Don't have a scanner, sorry).



I could definitely see one coming up after New Warriors (whether this comic is cancelled early or hopefully not). I have found some early interviews of Scarlet Spider and it really seems that there was a lot more planned for Houston (even supporting characters that were ultimately not introduced).

http://www.freepresshouston.com/fph-...-ryan-stegman/

However, if it were up to me, any new relaunch would be called "Scarlet Spider & Hummingbird" and it would not be a "solo", but a "duo" book. :P

I would love that!

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Has anyone else seen the preview for New Warriors #5?