Making the Toyman more credible as a villain.

[Kuwagaton]

A hero does need to oppose villains that challenge her/him. Superman went toe-to-toe with Mongul last issue and, in this issue, he's outwitted by a team of bank-robbers? No, that does not work too well.

I disagree, since they bring very different things to the table. Beating a super powerful fist fighter and solving a grand scheme aren't inherently hand in hand. Which is why I loved the later pre crisis and the Casey run, for the extreme versatility.

I think the best chance Toyman had of entering the rogue pool was by way of Morrison using him for the revenge squad. The Toyboy from Pak wasn't too good, even if the tone was right imo.

[scary harpy]

I disagree, since they bring very different things to the table. Beating a super powerful fist fighter and solving a grand scheme aren't inherently hand in hand. Which is why I loved the later pre crisis and the Casey run, for the extreme versatility.

Aside from the long list of other powers, Kal is super smart. He's probably one of the smartest people on the planet. He's also an investigative reporter...with super-speed and super senses.

Solving a grand scheme really is not going to take him very long. While I'm sure these bank-robbers are clever, they are probably not some of the smartest people on the planet.

[Kuwagaton]

I'd say it's flawed thinking to believe that smart people can't be stumped or tricked, especially when they don't know all the working details.

Going back to pre crisis for an example, Bates wrote a ton of Superman and Flash. Regardless of who was really faster, they were roughly in the same ballpark and so on a given day within certain circumstances, either one could probably win a race. Even if one was faster, that really wouldn't mean always winning in a matter of speed.

If Superman is extremely smart and Toyman is merely abnormally smart, you can have the same case. If Superman is so extremely smart that he's not challenged, that's just boring.

[gwangung]

I'd say it's flawed thinking to believe that smart people can't be stumped or tricked, especially when they don't know all the working details.

Going back to pre crisis for an example, Bates wrote a ton of Superman and Flash. Regardless of who was really faster, they were roughly in the same ballpark and so on a given day within certain circumstances, either one could probably win a race. Even if one was faster, that really wouldn't mean always winning in a matter of speed.

If Superman is extremely smart and Toyman is merely abnormally smart, you can have the same case. If Superman is so extremely smart that he's not challenged, that's just boring.

That's why I think you should emphasize Toyman's abnormal way of thinking. Smart is not the only attribute; the values you bring, the things you want to embrace are also things. Somebody whose way of thinking is not normal can be baffling to Superman because his mind just doesn't think that way.

[llozymandias]

I'd say it's flawed thinking to believe that smart people can't be stumped or tricked, especially when they don't know all the working details.

Going back to pre crisis for an example, Bates wrote a ton of Superman and Flash. Regardless of who was really faster, they were roughly in the same ballpark and so on a given day within certain circumstances, either one could probably win a race. Even if one was faster, that really wouldn't mean always winning in a matter of speed.

If Superman is extremely smart and Toyman is merely abnormally smart, you can have the same case. If Superman is so extremely smart that he's not challenged, that's just boring.

In the pre-crisis continuities, a great majority of Superman's victories were earned through trickery.

[Kuwagaton]

Good examples. I think the one other example is the joker. It doesn't make any sort of sense for him to rival Batman intellectually, but given his resources and abnormal way of thinking, he presents a challenge. You can sort of pose Toyman this way and it wouldn't be a rip off at all. At least, it wouldn't seem familiar in a world where Joker is a face ripping goth or something.

Brainiac and Lex were always the most persistent enemies, and their way of challenging for years was mostly in the way of obstacles. Somewhere down the line Lex started concentrating on physical violence and Brainiac became vinnie jones. If Toyman is now the one villain left to wacky schemes, that's not too bad.

[scary harpy]

I'd say it's flawed thinking to believe that smart people can't be stumped or tricked, especially when they don't know all the working details.

Going back to pre crisis for an example, Bates wrote a ton of Superman and Flash. Regardless of who was really faster, they were roughly in the same ballpark and so on a given day within certain circumstances, either one could probably win a race. Even if one was faster, that really wouldn't mean always winning in a matter of speed.

If Superman is extremely smart and Toyman is merely abnormally smart, you can have the same case. If Superman is so extremely smart that he's not challenged, that's just boring.

It's flawed thinking if that's what anyone thought I meant.

Superman would know more details that we could comprehend at one time.

At super-speed, he's scanning a situation with super-vision (micropscopic, telescopic, x-ray, etcetera) and super-hearing. At super-speed, his super-mind is processing all this information and making connections. If this situation involves a past foe, he is already accessing his incredible memory to make further connections and deductions. Kal may not be the world's greatest detective but he's near enough.

If Superman is so extremely smart that he's not challenged, that's just boring.

That's one of the problems of being so Super. Very few can really challenge him.

[scary harpy]

To be honest, I think Prankster is in an even worse state. I mean, what does he actually have going for him? Is he even an inventor? Where does he get his wonderful toys? The "distraction for hire" angle was interesting, but it doesn't really answer the question of what skills this guy actually has or how he possesses all this tech. Going back to his Golden Age incarnation, he didn't seem to be an inventor like the Toyman, he was just a criminal with style.

I agree. I liked the Nightwing foe version of Prankster.

Good point. Can't be a simple burglar or bank-robber, so a foe would have to be able to induce city-wide havoc, which would keep Superman busy. Maybe add on a creepy or twisty mentality where it's a challenge to figure out the reasoning (but not so psychotic as to be murderous or truly sick). It would be a challenge to Superman, because he IS such a straightforward, positive character, that getting into bent mind sets is a challenge for him.

That's why I think you should emphasize Toyman's abnormal way of thinking. Smart is not the only attribute; the values you bring, the things you want to embrace are also things. Somebody whose way of thinking is not normal can be baffling to Superman because his mind just doesn't think that way.

gwangung, I like your posts. Still sounds like a batvillain to me.

I not saying that Joker, Penguin, Prankster, Puzzler, Riddler or Toyman couldn't challenge Superman once or twice maybe. I just don't see them as recurring foes for Kal.

[scary harpy]

Incidentally, one thing I do like about the modern Toyman is that he's sent to ARKHAM when captured, rather than some place in Metropolis. I like it even better because he complains about this (i.e. "I don't belong here, I'm a SUPERMAN villain, not a BATMAN villain!" I think that's an interesting take: the Toyman being essentially a Batman villain (albeit with better tech) who nonetheless exists in Superman's rogues gallery.

That's one of the reasons that I would put him in Arkham. He thinks he's a Superman villain but he's actually a Batman villain. A Catch-22, I guess.

Of course, the reason Toyman may seem like a Batman villain is that he was created by Don Cameron who was writing for both Batman and Superman. Bill Finger and Alvin Schwartz also wrote for both, so it's not surprising that Batman and Superman tangled with the same sort of crooks in the '40s. Most such stories had problem plots. Here's a problem for the hero posed by villain X, now how can the hero figure out the solution in 13 pages or less.

I'm glad to learn this. Explains a lot!

[Jon Clark]

gwangung, I like your posts. Still sounds like a batvillain to me.

I not saying that Joker, Penguin, Prankster, Puzzler, Riddler or Toyman couldn't challenge Superman once or twice maybe. I just don't see them as recurring foes for Kal.

But, if these guys keep coming back to Metropolis instead of Gotham, what is Superman going to do. just let the SCU deal with them? Assuming the crooks aren't looking to match muscles with Superman and act via proxies (in the Toyman's case his weaponized toys) then the point isn't how powerful Superman is but rather how does Superman actually find them.

Picture Winslow Schott as a guy like the Uni-Bomber- he arranges in some way to have his toys delivered without any fanfare and until they activate there isn't anyway for Superman to know where they will be ahead of time. And at the time they are active Winslow is watching the mayhem on TV in his hideout miles away. Even after Superman defeats the tech- it's not like Winslowe is standing right there for Superman to arrest him.

Plus one of my most fondly remembered Superman foes never got even half a panel of victory. The Purple Piledriver existed just to give Superman some action scenes (no pun intended) to pad out the "real story". So Picture Superman trying to deal withZod having escaped the Zone, but whole on the trail of Zod Superman keeps getting called away to deal with a giant Betsy Wetsy doll that is tearing up the streets consuming vast quatities of water from broken mains and then fllodining other areas when she releases the stored water. Then a bank robbery where the robbers tossed exploding cream pies at the guards. And a string of accidents across the city when all the traffic lights start changing every 5 seconds from red to green and back. None of these really threaten Superman or beyond his powers, but they do distract him from pursuing Zod and turn a one issue battle into an going subplot.

[Kuwagaton]

It's flawed thinking if that's what anyone thought I meant.

Superman would know more details that we could comprehend at one time.

At super-speed, he's scanning a situation with super-vision (micropscopic, telescopic, x-ray, etcetera) and super-hearing. At super-speed, his super-mind is processing all this information and making connections. If this situation involves a past foe, he is already accessing his incredible memory to make further connections and deductions. Kal may not be the world's greatest detective but he's near enough.



That's one of the problems of being so Super. Very few can really challenge him.

Except for the cases of the actual comics. We've had so many decades of interesting and strange puzzles. He gets sucked into an anti-matter ransom for the world by Random Nasaguy, he's walled by the Fearsome Five, deadbeat dad manipulates Nekton against him, there are hundreds of examples. Of course many of these haven't lasted 18 pages much less 3-8 issues, but in agreeing with Jim Kelly I'd say that's exactly the point.

Some people out there find Superman boring because they assume he's rarely challenged, and some just feel that he's rarely challenged regardless, but imo it never has been that boring.

[scary harpy]

But, if these guys keep coming back to Metropolis instead of Gotham, what is Superman going to do. just let the SCU deal with them? Assuming the crooks aren't looking to match muscles with Superman and act via proxies (in the Toyman's case his weaponized toys) then the point isn't how powerful Superman is but rather how does Superman actually find them.

Picture Winslow Schott as a guy like the Uni-Bomber- he arranges in some way to have his toys delivered without any fanfare and until they activate there isn't anyway for Superman to know where they will be ahead of time. And at the time they are active Winslow is watching the mayhem on TV in his hideout miles away. Even after Superman defeats the tech- it's not like Winslowe is standing right there for Superman to arrest him.

Plus one of my most fondly remembered Superman foes never got even half a panel of victory. The Purple Piledriver existed just to give Superman some action scenes (no pun intended) to pad out the "real story". So Picture Superman trying to deal withZod having escaped the Zone, but whole on the trail of Zod Superman keeps getting called away to deal with a giant Betsy Wetsy doll that is tearing up the streets consuming vast quatities of water from broken mains and then fllodining other areas when she releases the stored water. Then a bank robbery where the robbers tossed exploding cream pies at the guards. And a string of accidents across the city when all the traffic lights start changing every 5 seconds from red to green and back. None of these really threaten Superman or beyond his powers, but they do distract him from pursuing Zod and turn a one issue battle into an going subplot.

Excellent points.

On the other hand, Nightwing could be dealing with the Betsy Wetsy, cream pie bandits and the anti-traffic lights while Superman is looking for Zod. His detective skills would also allow Grayson to locate the Toyman.

This post suggests Superman needs a sidekick like Skyboy or Superman Robots to help with the 911 emergencies while he attends to catastrophes.

[scary harpy]

Except for the cases of the actual comics. We've had so many decades of interesting and strange puzzles. He gets sucked into an anti-matter ransom for the world by Random Nasaguy, he's walled by the Fearsome Five, deadbeat dad manipulates Nekton against him, there are hundreds of examples. Of course many of these haven't lasted 18 pages much less 3-8 issues, but in agreeing with Jim Kelly I'd say that's exactly the point.

Some people out there find Superman boring because they assume he's rarely challenged, and some just feel that he's rarely challenged regardless, but imo it never has been that boring.

Sounds like bad writing to me. As for agreeing with Jim Kelly:

I think Toyman was creepy enough in his original incarnation. I remember reading an old Toyman story in DC SPECIAL No. 14 (September-October '71) and being surprised that he was such a dastardly fellow originally (by the '60s he had become quite tame).

Attempts to push Winslow much further into wickedness than what was already there tend to make him too icky. And then writers shy away from him, because there are too many unwelcome associations with the character. I think that's why Geoff Johns tried to clear his browsing history a few years ago--to get rid of all those icky distractions.

Superman needs some villains that are essentially fun. How many of those have survived without being vulgarized?

I see this as a symptom of the times, where every story needs to be the most important Superman story ever written, so they can sell the comics. Of course, it's not true. It's so not true, because the need for every story to matter means that continuity keeps breaking because it can't support a reality where every month the most important story is occurring. In a world where it's a given that Superman isn't always involved in the most important story of his life, there's room for these second string villains and they are necessary for that reason. Superman can't be battling Darkseid, Mongul, Luthor, Brainiac and Zod every month--doing so over-exposes them and takes away from their status as first string villains. So having a healthy number of rogues, who merely irritate Superman and distract him, serves to space out the most important stories. Really there should only be one most important story per year and all the other stories should be built around that.

Of course, the reason Toyman may seem like a Batman villain is that he was created by Don Cameron who was writing for both Batman and Superman. Bill Finger and Alvin Schwartz also wrote for both, so it's not surprising that Batman and Superman tangled with the same sort of crooks in the '40s. Most such stories had problem plots. Here's a problem for the hero posed by villain X, now how can the hero figure out the solution in 13 pages or less.

I mostly agree with Jim Kelly too. Superman does need villains that are essentially fun and second string villains are necessary. I feel that fun, second string villains for Superman shouldn't be too similar to Batvillains.

I find myself agreeing with Carabas:

He's Toyman. I don't think he was ever intended as a more credible villain.

[Kuwagaton]

*shrug*

If the Schultz, Bates, and Wolfman stories were considered bad, and if the Silver Age stories Siegel himself came up with were bad, I dunno what to tell you. Except maybe try them? lol. Superman has spent more than half of his history in comics not dealing with the big name villains. It's the concentration from the last twenty years or so of largely serious business comics in the market that, I imagine, have shifted people into thinking he should be too ____ to deal with ____.

[scary harpy]

*shrug*

If the Schultz, Bates, and Wolfman stories were considered bad, and if the Silver Age stories Siegel himself came up with were bad, I dunno what to tell you. Except maybe try them? lol. Superman has spent more than half of his history in comics not dealing with the big name villains. It's the concentration from the last twenty years or so of largely serious business comics in the market that, I imagine, have shifted people into thinking he should be too ____ to deal with ____.

This is sounding like the Tale of Two Supermen:

The golden-age champion who deals with Archer, Prankster, Puzzler and Toyman; the silver-age demigod who deals with Darkseid, Mongul and Zod. Oddly, both are existing at the same time as the same person.

I prefer a character who shows consistent levels of ability. In my opinion, Batman shouldn't appear as the world's greatest detective in one issue and continually outsmarted in another issue. There should be a balance.