Why is it that people think that Scott/Cyke has been character assassinated?

[Xelossik]

Kisinith:

The core of Schism was a conflict between Cyclops and Wolverine. Cyclops actions in this comics were twofold, reacting to the plot against the mutant population and to Wolverines actions. Any discussion that touches upon Schism is going to involve CONTEXT. It is not about the pros or cons of Wolverine but the Context of Cyclops actions... so short answer no, not when it pertains to what you are trying to claim.

And what am i trying to claim?

Yeah turning the teenaged telepath over after he had embarrassed the hell out of the world leaders and exposed their deepest secrets...

where is a problem? He could win playing it right. Or maybe he lied and he forced them to lie?

Knowledge on what? Cyclops did use Wolverine, he worked with him repeatedly, but Wolverine stopped listening. Even the best leaders in the world can't force someone who is that unwilling.

Psychology. Cyclops should send him on the mission in issue 2. Cyclops send even Rogue which was stupid considering what he thought about her.

On the existence of genocidal murder-bots designed for the sole purpose of murdering Mutants... No he tried to talk, to work out a better way. He was thwarted, not by his own actions but by those of the "villains" who were promoting genocide to line their own pockets. The Hellfire brats were the ones producing and selling sentinels all around the world.

He tried to talk? When? He said few words and then ignored people. He wanted to destroy their weapons. Deal was : You will lose, I will win.
WOw... I wonder why they weren't interested.

About scans:
thanks for supporting me. He should send Wolverine from the beginning. Then Wolverine wouldn't be able to do anything to stop him.

[akiresu_]

He tried to talk? When? He said few words and then ignored people. He wanted to destroy their weapons. Deal was : You will lose, I will win.
WOw... I wonder why they weren't interested.

You seem to be mistaking conventional, legal weaponry with illegal weapons of mass destruction that just so happen to be intrinsically designed to exterminate a race. If every country had an Ultron, specifically designed to exterminate a minority group, would you find the middle ground? Would you say "oh yeah genocide, fine by me"? The only option was to seek unilateral disarmament. Lest we forget, Sentinels are intrinsically objects of terror. Do we negotiate with terrorists? (I actually have my own more complicated opinion on this that I won't go into the nasty political details of, so assume the answer to this rhetorical question is the main-stream response)

[Son of Batman]

Why do people think Cyclops has been character assassinated?

IDK

But Cyclops is a really interesting character right now. I found Bendis' Uncanny X-Men to be a lot more fun than his All New X-Men book. I didn't like Wolverine and The X-Men...it was more of a parody X-Men book IMO. And when Cyclops was the leader of The X-Men in Utopia...things were really fun.

So in conclusion, whether or not he's being character assassinated or not, I don't really care. Cyclops is just a really fun leader of The X-Men. However Magneto is a fun leader too.

[Xelossik]

akiresu

You seem to be mistaking conventional, legal weaponry with illegal weapons of mass destruction that just so happen to be intrinsically designed to exterminate a race. If every country had an Ultron, specifically designed to exterminate a minority group, would you find the middle ground?

That's not true. Sentinels are programmed to defend humanity against threats. They are weapons. Yes some Sentinels where created to kill mutants but so what? Just because some organisation in UA created few Sentinels to kill mutants we should destroy police Sentinels in other country? That's stupid. World don't work that way.

The only option was to seek unilateral disarmament.

Just because You or cyclops don't see other possibilities?
few things:
- You need to show the proof... Cyclops didn't care. Mistake
- You need to show why people gain something when they do this (because they will lost cash) Cyclops didn't even try to do this
- You can reprogram Sentinels but You need to show why this is good idea for humans. Cyclops didn't try to do this
- You may offer cooperation with some countries. Cyclops didn't
- You may even start working for some country. China was using mutants in army as a leaders.
should i go with more?

Sentinels are intrinsically objects of terror.

Not true. They are "tanks of elite police forces" because in this world police had harder job.

[Tarqon]

Who was so terrible at his job that majority of them betrayed him...

I just have to point out that his only job since Decimation was keeping a race from being completely eradicated. And he did it. I don't think theres a 'perfect' or an 'easy' way to do that. I don't think it's something he'd ever been prepared for because mutants were on the fast track to the top of the food chain so to speak, Xavier wasnt drilling him daily on what to do when there are only 200 mutants left in the world. Cyclops wasn't out to make friends or to make people happy and he faced disaster after disaster trying to keep his people alive. Something he accomplished, not Wolverine or Magneto or Xavier. It was no longer a matter of co-existing peacefully with humans, there was no time for that when every week someone was trying to kill them and their children and everyone who'd ever been one of them. Cyclops never asked for this position, everyone pushed him in to it, Wolverine included. In emergencies he became the go-to guy and he did it, he did everything they asked of him and they often threw it back in his face when it didnt end in sunshine and flowers. Honestly I can't imagine the strain and the pressure that came from that and even though we saw signs of him becoming unhinged i can not even believe he held it together as well as he did to get as far as his peaceful demonstration. He did something Xavier had never been able to do, which was prove that the entire mutant race wanted nothing but peaceful co-existence. Didn't change anything, humans still hate them but now they can't blame it on fear of mutant attack.

You're right about them betraying him, interesting word to use. He most certainly was betrayed. Wolverine I can understand, he likes to think he's always right because of his experience but he's not. He also makes a some decisions with his heart or gut and refuses to believe those decisions could possibly be wrong. He makes mistakes and when he makes a REALLY big one, he won't back down on it and will pursue it with everything he's got until the situation burns out and the writers need to move him elsewhere. The others betrayed Cyclops for a more idealistic life. They wanted to go back to school and live in the past and act like they weren't hanging on by a thread whilst Cyclops knew that there was no point in living that way now. Cyclops had to keep doing the difficult things so that Logan could live that life. It's one of the reasons he begged Storm to stay, he knew exactly what this position was doing to him and Storm was an asset in grounding him.

Mutants are still alive, new mutants are now appearing. He did his job pretty damn well since that was literally his only goal. Won't bother getting in to T-Mists since he's dead now and we don't know enough to form an opinion. Maybe he finally snapped, maybe he lost it, maybe he's working an angle, taking a dive, who knows. It's someone elses problem and right now everyone is just scrambling about like ants with no focus and Magneto slowly slipping away toward being tomorrows problem. Honestly I think this is how decimation would have been without Cyclops and I really don't like it.

[Xelossik]

Tarqon:
Thanks that You support my point. He failed as a leader because his only job was keeping mutants alive. Leader should be able to think about more things. He should use his resources to do more than survival. He should choose a mutant to talk with others if he can't do it personally. Cyclops can't rule over big group.

cyclops changed x men without explaining anything. Anh he was terrible to iceman, Rogue and few more. Of course that they left him.

[theoneandonly]

well when you lead a group then there's always subconscious resentment against the leader as no one likes being told what to do when it comes to it. the question is can any other mutant could have been able to do a better job? can't see that happening as another crisis has arisen and it is leading to a war between X Men and the inhumans which was the response of Cyclops and now they are following in his footsteps so no one can effectively lead in such conditions and all you can do is set some goals and try to achieve them in the best way possible. it's not that rogue and wolverine were essentially any better than cyclops as evident in uncanny avengers where wolverine admitted his mistakes before dying and rogue allows her hate for Wanda to disregard the possibility that she may be double crossing the twins and kill her. rogues mainly resented her because she blames her for Xavier death and not Cyclops who was dealing with a impossible situation the best way he could.

[Xelossik]

theoneandonly:

well when you lead a group then there's always subconscious resentment against the leader as no one likes being told what to do when it comes to it.

So what? You can still use them...

the question is can any other mutant could have been able to do a better job?

Rogue (she would pick Cyclops as military commander)

can't see that happening as another crisis has arisen and it is leading to a war between X Men and the inhumans which was the response of Cyclops and now they are following in his footsteps so no one can effectively lead in such conditions

we will see

it's not that rogue and wolverine were essentially any better than cyclops as evident in uncanny avengers where wolverine admitted his mistakes before dying and rogue allows her hate for Wanda to disregard the possibility that she may be double crossing the twins and kill her.

But she made this mistake because cyclops killed Xavier. Legacy Rogue couldn't make this mistake. You also ignoring the fact that that was so stupid and OoC that Remenbder was forced to rewind time. (This is Rogue from another reality).

rogues mainly resented her because she blames her for Xavier death and not Cyclops who was dealing with a impossible situation the best way he could.

No... Rogue was angry because Cyclops killed Xavier and destroyed her dreams... again. Wanda was simply unlucky.

Cyclops - You are right. He couldn't do more. Good leader could do more but he couldn't. This situation wasn't even impossible. There was simple solution but Cyclops don't plan ahead. You could train Hope (not beat her as Cyclops did).

[jpmst17]

theoneandonly:

So what? You can still use them...

Rogue (she would pick Cyclops as military commander)

we will see

But she made this mistake because cyclops killed Xavier. Legacy Rogue couldn't make this mistake. You also ignoring the fact that that was so stupid and OoC that Remenbder was forced to rewind time. (This is Rogue from another reality).

No... Rogue was angry because Cyclops killed Xavier and destroyed her dreams... again. Wanda was simply unlucky.

Cyclops - You are right. He couldn't do more. Good leader could do more but he couldn't. This situation wasn't even impossible. There was simple solution but Cyclops don't plan ahead. You could train Hope (not beat her as Cyclops did).

your measuring stick for a leader is ridiculous. no one ever has zero casualties. you are always going to lose people. look at any big war in history. now if we compare that to the X-Men's battles, it's always Cyclops at the helm. he always makes the tough decisions while rogue never has to. people may not love Cyclops, but they respect him and always go to him when things need done. look at his kill squad with wolverine as an example. mutants have also flourished and been born again because of him. he has saved the mutant race more than any other leader.

[Alan2099]

To me, modern Cyclops feels like he's waited until he's in his late 20s (or is it early 30s?) to finally go through his rebellious teenage phase. The age where he relizes that he doesn't have to agree with others and won't listen to people more experienced than he is because "they don't get it."

I can't say I like the character, but it's an interesting take. Especially when you factor in that people look to him for leadership and instead of applying what those other old people have taught him, he seems to want to do things his own way without realizing his own way isn't all that well thought out.

[Xelossik]

jpmst17 :

your measuring stick for a leader is ridiculous. no one ever has zero casualties. you are always going to lose people. look at any big war in history. now if we compare that to the X-Men's battles, it's always Cyclops at the helm.

What You said is true. And this is also a reason why he should stay as military commander and nothing more. We have presidents and generals and we are ok with that. Why X men should be different?

he always makes the tough decisions while rogue never has to.

First part is true / Second part is false.... Second Coming/Necrosha/Legacy she had different but still hard decisions. The difference is Rogue usually makes better decisions than Scott. (as long as we are talking about different things than combat)

people may not love cyclops, but they respect him and always go to him when things need done.

Like Schism right?

mutants have also flourished and been born again because of him. he has saved the mutant race more than any other leader.

He also created more enemies than any leader.
Please try to remember one thing: I said that be is best as military commander. What more do You want? He rescued mutants as military commander. True. But You can gain more. I said that he is best as military commander. It is impossible to gain more in this category. Yes he saved mutants multiple times during battles.

As many users (who try to defend cyclops) said: he didn't care about anything except mutant survival. That's why he was a weak leader for me.
If You want to win this discussion You should try to show me that X men don't need president or that X men don't have anyone who can talk (and considering Rogue from X men legacy 271-273) this will be hard but maybe this is possible

It does not matter how many times You will write that he is great commander ... You don't gain anything because i agreed that he is best mutant commander.

[theoneandonly]

Cyclops is going to be character assassinated and actually assassinated in the death of x as is evident from the x books currently.

[theoneandonly]

theoneandonly:

So what? You can still use them...

Rogue (she would pick Cyclops as military commander)

we will see

But she made this mistake because cyclops killed Xavier. Legacy Rogue couldn't make this mistake. You also ignoring the fact that that was so stupid and OoC that Remenbder was forced to rewind time. (This is Rogue from another reality).

No... Rogue was angry because Cyclops killed Xavier and destroyed her dreams... again. Wanda was simply unlucky.

Cyclops - You are right. He couldn't do more. Good leader could do more but he couldn't. This situation wasn't even impossible. There was simple solution but Cyclops don't plan ahead. You could train Hope (not beat her as Cyclops did).

well maybe but then the resentment is going to emerge sometime soon as evident in schism. you are forgetting that the whole situation was caused due to Wanda as she erased mutants and prevented further mutants from emerging which leads to the phoenix coming to earth to jump start the mutant race once again and even if it wasn't so it was the only available solution for the desperate situation they were in which was caused by Wanda so ultimately she was to blame for the tragedy as rouge thought so too and it wasn't a alternate rogue or ooc as she was resentful to Wanda from the beginning. if it was ooc then you can argue that even Cyclops acting weird is ooc or caused by apocalypse or anything. rogue has been a senior X man but it remains to be seen when she averted a crisis by her leadership skills and not through her power. can you provide a example?

[Jerk Chicken]

He hasn't been character assassinated (at least not based on the post-Morrison character). The stories end with him being right/the most important while other characters are made to look evil (Xavier) or incompetent (Wolverine, Storm, Rogue, you name it, really) in comparison to him.

Whiners are whining just to be whining. "Waaaaah they're teasing that he's dead (but only teasing and not really killing him)!"

"Waaaaah not every character likes him even though he's perfect!"

Lol just whining. They want the stories where he is at the center AND everyone loves him AND he is correct about everything, which just means they should go read Captain USA comics.

[yet another]

He hasn't been character assassinated (at least not based on the post-Morrison character). The stories end with him being right/the most important while other characters are made to look evil (Xavier) or incompetent (Wolverine, Storm, Rogue, you name it, really) in comparison to him.

Whiners are whining just to be whining. "Waaaaah they're teasing that he's dead (but only teasing and not really killing him)!"

"Waaaaah not every character likes him even though he's perfect!"

Lol just whining. They want the stories where he is at the center AND everyone loves him AND he is correct about everything, which just means they should go read Captain USA comics.

Plenty of truth in this.

Hickman wrote him pretty as a pretty deranged and pathetic character though. (But that can be written off as Phoenix possession. Again)

Can't think of anything else hitting that mark so far.