Is Spider-Man wrong to have a social life?

[boots]

I'm glad you think my idea's interesting, and yeah, with everything you listed that's happened to Peter over the last 50+ years since his first comic book appearance, he would be in need of loads of therapy and perhaps medication, as you mentioned in your response to my post.

well, i'd read it for sure.

However, even that's been known to backfire, as one earlier comic where he did visit a therapist turned out to be a scheme by Mysterio to uncover his secret identity. Another time, he was put in an asylum and manipulated into thinking he was going insane and had just imagined being Spider-Man. A third time, the therapist needed therapy after getting Spider-Man on the couch and listening to him.

yep. the idea that therapy is easy or a cure is silly. a lot of the time, it's an ongoing treatment that is incorporated into the patient's life to varying degrees of success.

option three seems to be the best way to address it all to me; acknowledge how ridiculous the situation is and laugh it off. it's a common technique that indirectly asks the audience to suspend their disbelief all in good fun.

[boots]

Unfortunately, that's what Marvel's increasingly presenting us with, not admirable, heroic characters, but dangerously unstable, unbalanced individuals with unaddressed psychological and emotional traumas and issues that are increasingly leading them into counterproductive modes of behavior like recurrently picking super-powered fights with each other every time an ideological issue or personal conflict rises up between them. That's something I think has to be dealt with to get these characters back on track to being the admirable, heroic figures they usually are and should be, before it does go too far and the characters end up doing something so unforgivable you can't realistically buy them as heroes anymore.

it's a point i've seen raised a few times on the internet, and while i broadly agree, it's a sign of the times. critical and political thinking has been encouraged (misapplied or not) and we tend to appraise heroics in a harsher light. it's "game of thrones" rather than "the hobbit". earnest heroics seems harder to swallow than cynical.

in the old days, you had a lot of superheroes picking superpowered fights with each other as well, but for the flimsiest of excuses (mental control/misunderstanding/set up/temporary madness). readers could have their cake and eat it: heroes that beat the shit out of each other but were still morally above reproach or consequences of those actions.

you could argue that the current approach is the next logical development in that area for a maturing audience with modern sensibilities.

we might need to redefine how superheroes are allowed to act if we want to accept them as paragons again.

[nose norton]

This is one of those threads where, if you pull at it, the entire concept of superheroes begins to unravel. It's functionally little different from questioning whether a spider bite could give someone powers.

Food for thought.

Or kill everyone who knows his secret who is a potential threat.

That wouldn't really solve the problem, the GG for example, found out his secret before Peter was made aware of that fact. Norman could've had a plethora of contingency plans, in the event of his demise.

The third option is just hang out with other superheroes. And they did go that route for a while. Really, there is no legitimate reason that he NEEDS to have 'civilians' in his normal life. He's best buddies with Daredevil and Human Torch, he's worked for Tony Stark, He's dated Black Cat, he's lived in Avenger's Tower and just hung around with the Avengers for a few years. He can have friends, girlfriends, jobs, without opening up unpowered people to supervillain attack IF he chose to.

Another patch, what about relatives?

[Spidey_Legend]

He is not a hermit. He has every right to has a social life.

[phantom1592]

He is not a hermit. He has every right to has a social life.

Nobody is discussing his Rights. He has the right to sit on his butt on the couch and let the world collapse too... but he feels a responsibility to do whatever he can to prevent that.

That's what the OP is asking. For someone always talking about responsibility... is it responsible to endanger civilians when he knows the dangers his life brings?

Most of the time it isn't that big of a problem... but man... those years he was a high school teacher? How did he avoid some serious lawsuits after revealing his identity with THAT one? I can't imagine a single parent thought it was cool that a killer robot could have crashed through his kids classroom in order to kill their teacher...

[Spidey_Legend]

Nobody is discussing his Rights. He has the right to sit on his butt on the couch and let the world collapse too... but he feels a responsibility to do whatever he can to prevent that.

That's what the OP is asking. For someone always talking about responsibility... is it responsible to endanger civilians when he knows the dangers his life brings?

Most of the time it isn't that big of a problem... but man... those years he was a high school teacher? How did he avoid some serious lawsuits after revealing his identity with THAT one? I can't imagine a single parent thought it was cool that a killer robot could have crashed through his kids classroom in order to kill their teacher...

It's ridiculous to ask Peter to not gave any social life. He can't avoid interact with other people.

Well, those parents should glad that Spider-Man is there to save their kids. That's the price of living in the Marvel version of New York.

[phantom1592]

Well for starters Gwen was snatched from Peter's house not her own.

But the wider point here though cuts to the heart of the question. I don't think realistically it must = he has to cut off ties but that happened to Gwen and he didn't cut off ties to civilians. But before that point Aunt May and Betty had been abducted due to their tangenteal connections to Spider-Man and it had happened more than once. So it's not really valid to say he should've done it then since by that logic he should've done it even earlier.

But he didn't. He never even considered it and never ever has in any seriouness outside of Parallel Lives. So the question is why and is he justified in doing that?

Before Gwen it makes some kind of juvenile, prideful sense. His family and friends were in danger... but he was there to save them. He always had, He always would. Good guys win, bad guys lose... that's the way it works.

After Gwen?? That should have been the wakeup call. The threats were real... and he COULD fail them.

If you cut normal people out of your life entirely, you will not be able to understand them as time goes on. You become a superior being among superior beings, apart from the masses. It's a hobbling feature for a hero.

On one hand, I would point out that the X-men do exactly that. They track down other mutants, bring them to their giant house full of mutants, live, date, eat with other mutants and every other weekday they go fight other mutants... There is very little outside, normal humans being put in danger from X-men's social lives. The Supers are all their own little community with little normal people around them. Soooooo it CAN be done.

On the other Hand... I would also point out that I think that's what's WRONG with the X-men and why I think they're quality has plummeted the last couple decades.

It's ridiculous to ask Peter to not have any social life. He can't avoid interact with other people.

Well, those parents should glad that Spider-Man is there to save their kids. That's the price of living in the Marvel version of New York.

Nahhhh... not the way it works. A killer Robot smashes into a classroom looking for spider-man... and not one single parent would ever be glad that at least Spider-man was there to save some of them...

HONESTLY, The idea of Parker having ANY social life was one of those suspension of Disbelief things in the first place. Between School, Work, Studying, improving his gear, patrolling the streets and protecting the city, and occasionally sleeping.... Parker never would have had TIME to hang out with friends, go on dates, or chill in front of the TV. It's actually EASIER to believe that Pete takes his all work no play mentality to the next level and his friends go weeks or months without ever seeing him.

Heck, that's pretty much the Ultimate Spider-man cartoon the last couple seasons... O.o

All Supers, all the time.

[Mister Mets]

So consequences have to have a certain amount of relative realism then. But his history of adventures could still add up without the character being unrecognizable.

I'm not sure that's true. Given all the stuff he's seen, he would have a hard time relating to the people around him if Marvel was trying to go for emotional realism. So this is the kind of stuff that gets hand-waved away.

[DieHard200904]

Before Gwen it makes some kind of juvenile, prideful sense. His family and friends were in danger... but he was there to save them. He always had, He always would. Good guys win, bad guys lose... that's the way it works.

After Gwen?? That should have been the wakeup call. The threats were real... and he COULD fail them.




On one hand, I would point out that the X-men do exactly that. They track down other mutants, bring them to their giant house full of mutants, live, date, eat with other mutants and every other weekday they go fight other mutants... There is very little outside, normal humans being put in danger from X-men's social lives. The Supers are all their own little community with little normal people around them. Soooooo it CAN be done.

On the other Hand... I would also point out that I think that's what's WRONG with the X-men and why I think they're quality has plummeted the last couple decades.





Nahhhh... not the way it works. A killer Robot smashes into a classroom looking for spider-man... and not one single parent would ever be glad that at least Spider-man was there to save some of them...

HONESTLY, The idea of Parker having ANY social life was one of those suspension of Disbelief things in the first place. Between School, Work, Studying, improving his gear, patrolling the streets and protecting the city, and occasionally sleeping.... Parker never would have had TIME to hang out with friends, go on dates, or chill in front of the TV. It's actually EASIER to believe that Pete takes his all work no play mentality to the next level and his friends go weeks or months without ever seeing him.

Heck, that's pretty much the Ultimate Spider-man cartoon the last couple seasons... O.o

All Supers, all the time.

X-Men is really focused overwhelmingly on kids in a special school for mutants because of somehow the mutant discrimination not resolving overall with time, some kind of new anti-mutant deal rises which brings back the outcast status for them. In that sense, it becomes dated. I am not arguing that discrimination for various reasons is gone, especially de facto discrimination, but X-Men's key problem is the perpetual outcast status it has to create some kind of increased acceptance by non mutants eventually. It's conceivable that mutants would be more accepted, or that more mutants would have their non-mutant family members at the very least to interact with, or they could do a Marvel equivalent of a DC Elseworlds where some mutants carve out a living that involves mingling with non-mutants. In essence, it's arguably a concept that becomes dated for some people such as myself after following them for a while. But since comics are, to an extent "ageless" you are stuck seeing what happens in mutant high year after year. As far as quality, well, it feels to me that a lot of characters just didn't keep the same level of interest from me for decades, but the real problem becomes "where are the people to replace me when I transition to other characters like Daredevil, Spider-Man, etc.?

Also, speaking of Spider-Man, is it just me or does it feel like the public gives him the "ungrateful bastard" treatment quite a bit sometimes.

[draco_dracul]

Not having social connections or any way to recharge/unwind is a very good way to go insane.

[Huntsman Spider]

X-Men is really focused overwhelmingly on kids in a special school for mutants because of somehow the mutant discrimination not resolving overall with time, some kind of new anti-mutant deal rises which brings back the outcast status for them. In that sense, it becomes dated. I am not arguing that discrimination for various reasons is gone, especially de facto discrimination, but X-Men's key problem is the perpetual outcast status it has to create some kind of increased acceptance by non mutants eventually. It's conceivable that mutants would be more accepted, or that more mutants would have their non-mutant family members at the very least to interact with, or they could do a Marvel equivalent of a DC Elseworlds where some mutants carve out a living that involves mingling with non-mutants. In essence, it's arguably a concept that becomes dated for some people such as myself after following them for a while. But since comics are, to an extent "ageless" you are stuck seeing what happens in mutant high year after year. As far as quality, well, it feels to me that a lot of characters just didn't keep the same level of interest from me for decades, but the real problem becomes "where are the people to replace me when I transition to other characters like Daredevil, Spider-Man, etc.?

Also, speaking of Spider-Man, is it just me or does it feel like the public gives him the "ungrateful bastard" treatment quite a bit sometimes.

It's a common reality of life as a superhero in the Marvel Universe, though some --- primarily Spider-Man and whoever else is generally distrusted and disliked by the public, media, and organized or institutional authorities --- get it worse than others. A lot of the public not only doesn't care that the superheroes are around to save them from the likes of Thanos or Ultron or extraterrestrial/extradimensional invaders or super-terrorist organizations like HYDRA and (de facto) A.I.M., but actively blames those villains' attacks or presence on the very existence of the superheroes themselves. The common perception is, as Jameson put it once in an episode of The Spectacular Spider-Man, "We weren't seeing 'super-villains' until the 'superheroes' started showing up!" In response, the superheroes as a whole are seemingly increasingly apathetic to the lack of sustained or sustainable goodwill on the part of the public because what else can be done in the face of a continually ungrateful and unappreciative public that would actually side with the likes of the Green Goblin so long as he was talking a good game about "superhero authoritarianism and overreach"?

Not having social connections or any way to recharge/unwind is a very good way to go insane.

That's a very good point, too. Hell, I would argue that a lot of the superheroes these days having no real social connection with the people they protect is a huge part of the reason so many of them seem increasingly remote from the concerns of normal people and therefore unable to relate to them or take their genuine concerns seriously. This is also why we keep getting so many of these internal conflicts where what happens to normal people in the midst of the superheroes fighting each other doesn't seem to get taken into account.

[suemorphplus209]

X-Men is really focused overwhelmingly on kids in a special school for mutants because of somehow the mutant discrimination not resolving overall with time, some kind of new anti-mutant deal rises which brings back the outcast status for them. In that sense, it becomes dated. I am not arguing that discrimination for various reasons is gone, especially de facto discrimination, but X-Men's key problem is the perpetual outcast status it has to create some kind of increased acceptance by non mutants eventually. It's conceivable that mutants would be more accepted, or that more mutants would have their non-mutant family members at the very least to interact with, or they could do a Marvel equivalent of a DC Elseworlds where some mutants carve out a living that involves mingling with non-mutants. In essence, it's arguably a concept that becomes dated for some people such as myself after following them for a while. But since comics are, to an extent "ageless" you are stuck seeing what happens in mutant high year after year. As far as quality, well, it feels to me that a lot of characters just didn't keep the same level of interest from me for decades, but the real problem becomes "where are the people to replace me when I transition to other characters like Daredevil, Spider-Man, etc.?

Also, speaking of Spider-Man, is it just me or does it feel like the public gives him the "ungrateful bastard" treatment quite a bit sometimes.

My honest suggestion about X-Men is doing your own fanfiction or something. Who knows, you might make a more interesting story than what they do for comics, same with Spider-Man. Comic books have ano audience and creativity problem as it is.

[nose norton]

Before Gwen it makes some kind of juvenile, prideful sense. His family and friends were in danger... but he was there to save them. He always had, He always would. Good guys win, bad guys lose... that's the way it works.

After Gwen?? That should have been the wakeup call. The threats were real... and he COULD fail them.

I've taken the liberty of bolding the part of the text that hits the nail on the head. Nothing actually changed, about how Peter conducted his business.

[phantom1592]

X-Men is really focused overwhelmingly on kids in a special school for mutants because of somehow the mutant discrimination not resolving overall with time, some kind of new anti-mutant deal rises which brings back the outcast status for them. In that sense, it becomes dated. I am not arguing that discrimination for various reasons is gone, especially de facto discrimination, but X-Men's key problem is the perpetual outcast status it has to create some kind of increased acceptance by non mutants eventually. It's conceivable that mutants would be more accepted, or that more mutants would have their non-mutant family members at the very least to interact with, or they could do a Marvel equivalent of a DC Elseworlds where some mutants carve out a living that involves mingling with non-mutants. In essence, it's arguably a concept that becomes dated for some people such as myself after following them for a while. But since comics are, to an extent "ageless" you are stuck seeing what happens in mutant high year after year. As far as quality, well, it feels to me that a lot of characters just didn't keep the same level of interest from me for decades, but the real problem becomes "where are the people to replace me when I transition to other characters like Daredevil, Spider-Man, etc.?

X-men have dabbled with civilians in the past. They really got AWAY from the mutant high aspect with the 70's team full of adults who already knew how to use their powers. They wondered around town, had a few civilian room mates and things... X-factor split their time with mutants and humans... Beast, Iceman and Archangel all had civilian girlfriends...

Around the 90's the mutant explosion happened and there were SOOOOOOOOO many mutants that it became all mutant all the time. Everyone in the mansion, split amongst 3 books and zero social life at all.

I don't think they really brought the school concept back till after the first movie (which was really cool there, admittedly) and went full with Whedon's Astonishing X-men book and haven't looked back. Heck, once Decimation hit, they turned the mutant species into a commune...


I'm really NOT a fan of how that franchise spiraled. Xavier's dream as always about preparing mutants to live in the world with everyone else. Control the powers so you aren't a threat... This isolation thing?? Not a good direction.

[DieHard200904]

X-men have dabbled with civilians in the past. They really got AWAY from the mutant high aspect with the 70's team full of adults who already knew how to use their powers. They wondered around town, had a few civilian room mates and things... X-factor split their time with mutants and humans... Beast, Iceman and Archangel all had civilian girlfriends...

Around the 90's the mutant explosion happened and there were SOOOOOOOOO many mutants that it became all mutant all the time. Everyone in the mansion, split amongst 3 books and zero social life at all.

I don't think they really brought the school concept back till after the first movie (which was really cool there, admittedly) and went full with Whedon's Astonishing X-men book and haven't looked back. Heck, once Decimation hit, they turned the mutant species into a commune...


I'm really NOT a fan of how that franchise spiraled. Xavier's dream as always about preparing mutants to live in the world with everyone else. Control the powers so you aren't a threat... This isolation thing?? Not a good direction.

Well that explains a lot. I didn't follow X-Men until the late 1990s, so that might explain why I saw what I did. Of course you eventually graduate from school and move on to the real world, but I guess with so many added characters to the X-Men, that didn't exactly work out, which really did disappoint me. I wouldn't mind if they had fewer characters just to show that characters do have a life in the real world with non-mutant neighbors and other things, if you know what I mean.