How do you want to see gender equity championed in and by Wonder Woman?

[brettc1]

Taking my lead from Javier, I am putting up a new thread which takes the focus away from a single statement by a single person and puts it in a broader context. The title explains what that is.

This is not just a discussing of feminism in Wonder Woman. Feminism is a social movement with a philosophy - actually several philosophies, depending on which aspect of feminism you are referring to. The core philosophy of gender equity and how it should be represented in and by Wonder Woman is what we are discussing here. Therefore, this is NOT a discussion about feminism per se. That means if you are talking about whether feminism is good or bad [yes, I take into account that there will be people in either camp] then you are drifting from the topic - gender equity.

I believe that in order for there to be understanding, people must be allowed to come together in DISAGREEMENT! People will say things here you do not agree with, and that's okay. Before you respond to any comment, take a moment to consider WHY the person is saying what they said. What experiences have led the person on the other side of the computer to form these opinions. If you do not know, ask. If your first thought is to assume they are evil or stupid, reconsider or just don't reply. I am not saying you have to agree with everything everyone says, but accept the possibility that you might be wrong, or at least not as right as you initially thought.

This is a very passionate point for many people. Be sensitive to what they might have experienced. And of course, the person you are talking to is not telepathic and might not understand where you are coming from. Unless, of course, you explain. I could have made this thread about all forms of equity, cut I think one type is enough for one thread - other forms of equity and social justice can be discussed in their own threads.

This is about what you want to see happen regarding gender equity, not primarily what you DONT want. If someone says something you disagree with, feel free to disagree but give reasons and give alternatives.

Finally, remember to keep relating the discussion back to the book and its title character [and other characters too]. What would have them say, how would have them act, what situations would you have them confronted with and how would you have them respond?

And...

...go.

[Dr. Poison]

Here are my thoughts:


1.) Ditch the majority of the current male cast members and replace them with female cast members that are closely associated with Wonder Woman such as Donna Troy, Artemis, Wonder Girl, and Nubia.

2.) Reveal that WAres wasn't the only Olympian to train Diana but Athena spent considerable time with Diana as well.

3.) Downplay the amount of Amazons that participated in the sex-raids as just a group of extremists who were generally frowned upon by the majority of the rest of the Amazons.

4.) Let's see lots of stories where Diana defeats the main antagonist without help from Hermes, Orion, WAres, Lennox(I know these last 2 are dead but this is comics...), or any other male ally.

5.) Let's see Diana promote gender equality on Themyscira and other parts of the world through setting an example of such.

[brettc1]

Here are my thoughts:


1.) Ditch the majority of the current male cast members and replace them with female cast members that are closely associated with Wonder Woman such as Donna Troy, Artemis, Wonder Girl, and Nubia.

2.) Reveal that WAres wasn't the only Olympian to train Diana but Athena spent considerable time with Diana as well.

3.) Downplay the amount of Amazons that participated in the sex-raids as just a group of extremists who were generally frowned upon by the majority of the rest of the Amazons.

4.) Let's see lots of stories where Diana defeats the main antagonist without help from Hermes, Orion, WAres, Lennox(I know these last 2 are dead but this is comics...), or any other male ally.

5.) Let's see Diana promote gender equality on Themyscira and other parts of the world through setting an example of such.

Focussing on 5 for a moment, what would be an example of that for the Themyscirans? We have already seen her making them accept Zeke. What else would you want to see happening?

And why should the Amazons be more equitable? [aside from the moral considerations of murdering sailors, of course].

[Dr. Poison]

Focussing on 5 for a moment, what would be an example of that for the Themyscirans? We have already seen her making them accept Zeke. What else would you want to see happening?

And why should the Amazons be more equitable? [aside from the moral considerations of murdering sailors, of course].

I think one way Diana could promote gender equality on Themyscira is to let the male Amazons come and live there. She could also host "meet & greet" events between the female and male Amazons to give them a chance to interact and get to know each other.

Why should the Amazons be more equitable? Simply because it's the right thing to do.

[kidstandout]

Here are my thoughts:


1.) Ditch the majority of the current male cast members and replace them with female cast members that are closely associated with Wonder Woman such as Donna Troy, Artemis, Wonder Girl, and Nubia.

2.) Reveal that WAres wasn't the only Olympian to train Diana but Athena spent considerable time with Diana as well.

3.) Downplay the amount of Amazons that participated in the sex-raids as just a group of extremists who were generally frowned upon by the majority of the rest of the Amazons.

4.) Let's see lots of stories where Diana defeats the main antagonist without help from Hermes, Orion, WAres, Lennox(I know these last 2 are dead but this is comics...), or any other male ally.

5.) Let's see Diana promote gender equality on Themyscira and other parts of the world through setting an example of such.

this more or less, despite the fact that for the most part i liked azz's run i would like to see all of this. though may i add keep zola and zeke. and i second the manazons living on themyscira

[RudeCherub]

Here are my thoughts:


1.) Ditch the majority of the current male cast members and replace them with female cast members that are closely associated with Wonder Woman such as Donna Troy, Artemis, Wonder Girl, and Nubia.

2.) Reveal that WAres wasn't the only Olympian to train Diana but Athena spent considerable time with Diana as well.

3.) Downplay the amount of Amazons that participated in the sex-raids as just a group of extremists who were generally frowned upon by the majority of the rest of the Amazons.

4.) Let's see lots of stories where Diana defeats the main antagonist without help from Hermes, Orion, WAres, Lennox(I know these last 2 are dead but this is comics...), or any other male ally.

5.) Let's see Diana promote gender equality on Themyscira and other parts of the world through setting an example of such.

Dr you read my mind, especially 2 & 3.

1) not so much ditch but rebalance, the male supporting cast members should not outnumber the women, and the women should have a strong positive role, and be seen to have that role in the book, that applies to Polly, to Athena, but also the other goddesses who blessed Diana in the last reboot - and the Amazon's themselves. But absolutely Donna.

[kidstandout]

basically let's have more female involvement in ww's life. that doesn't nessarily mean remove the male envolvement(though their was bit too mch in azz's run), just re balance the female cast to their perez glory

[misslane]

In general, I'd love to read a Wonder Woman book to see Diana spending some of her off hours actively empowering women around the globe. If Superman can stamp out corruption and evil as a journalist, then what can Diana achieve in her non-superhero life? There was a beautiful book and documentary film a few years ago called Half the Sky, and it would please me very much to read about a Wonder Woman who protected, championed, and inspired the women and communities like those depicted in the book/doc. She could do this either as Wonder Woman or as Diana Prince.

On a more specific superhero level, I think it would be great if Wonder Woman pushed the Justice League to recruit and train more female heroes for the team.

[kidstandout]

In general, I'd love to read a Wonder Woman book to see Diana spending some of her off hours actively empowering women around the globe. If Superman can stamp out corruption and evil as a journalist, then what can Diana achieve in her non-superhero life? There was a beautiful book and documentary film a few years ago called Half the Sky, and it would please me very much to read about a Wonder Woman who protected, championed, and inspired the women and communities like those depicted in the book/doc. She could do this either as Wonder Woman or as Diana Prince.

On a more specific superhero level, I think it would be great if Wonder Woman pushed the Justice League to recruit and train more female heroes for the team.

if anything, that's needs to be shown more. especially with the current jl roster

[Dr. Poison]

In general, I'd love to read a Wonder Woman book to see Diana spending some of her off hours actively empowering women around the globe. If Superman can stamp out corruption and evil as a journalist, then what can Diana achieve in her non-superhero life? There was a beautiful book and documentary film a few years ago called Half the Sky, and it would please me very much to read about a Wonder Woman who protected, championed, and inspired the women and communities like those depicted in the book/doc. She could do this either as Wonder Woman or as Diana Prince.

On a more specific superhero level, I think it would be great if Wonder Woman pushed the Justice League to recruit and train more female heroes for the team.

I like these ideas a lot.

[borntohula]

1. I think the emasculating angle of the current run is a good one, showing that some "strength" can be due to weakness, for example a man who craves or as in the case of Paradise island with the separatism (similar to for example Japan's.)

2. The stance against perfection is great, and I think the practical uses of equality is a REALLY good thing. For example the one we're reading now with men allowed on the island, due to the risk of loosing amazons in the war against heaven.

Next step could be a Spartan like thinking when it comes to women, the belief in that healthy and trained women makes for healthier babies to grow into good warriors. Hopefully with a sound relationship to "perfection", so that they won't throw "weak" babies down the cliffs or something.

3. Letting some stuff play out in the long run is also great. Hera really grown on me during the whole book. Perhaps Hercules could be the next subject of such sort of characterization, if not First Born story turns into that.

[Vanguard-01]

First of all? Great thread, Brett!

Here are my thoughts:


1.) Ditch the majority of the current male cast members and replace them with female cast members that are closely associated with Wonder Woman such as Donna Troy, Artemis, Wonder Girl, and Nubia.

2.) Reveal that WAres wasn't the only Olympian to train Diana but Athena spent considerable time with Diana as well.

3.) Downplay the amount of Amazons that participated in the sex-raids as just a group of extremists who were generally frowned upon by the majority of the rest of the Amazons.

4.) Let's see lots of stories where Diana defeats the main antagonist without help from Hermes, Orion, WAres, Lennox(I know these last 2 are dead but this is comics...), or any other male ally.

5.) Let's see Diana promote gender equality on Themyscira and other parts of the world through setting an example of such.

And you thought you and I didn't agree on anything about New 52 Diana!

I agree with all of this.

Well? Except #1. I don't think the male characters need to be "ditched." But they can definitely have their importance downplayed some.

Totally agree on bringing back Diana's female supporting cast. Donna, Cassie (sans Stupid Demon Armor), Artemis, Nubia? Throw in Io, and sold!

Athena's influence? I'm thinking that reveal may be coming. Azz has been subtly hinting at Athena's presence for a while now. I'm hoping she shows up in a big way and your idea that she may have secretly trained Diana would be a great reveal.

Downplaying the Amazon's participation in the sex raids? Hells yeah! Having Diana teach the Amazons to be more gender-equal? That's just about the only thing that can make all the other badness from the Amazons worthwhile in the end. I don't mind the Amazons starting out savage, but I want to see them EVOLVE into the great women I've always loved and admired.

So, pretty much this ^^^^^^

I think one way Diana could promote gender equality on Themyscira is to let the male Amazons come and live there. She could also host "meet & greet" events between the female and male Amazons to give them a chance to interact and get to know each other.

Why should the Amazons be more equitable? Simply because it's the right thing to do.

Yup. Again, the only reason why I've tolerated the sex raids is because it gives the Amazons a dark past to motivate them to move on and leave that past behind them.

Having them take care of their sons, who they abandoned, as part of their atonement for past mistakes is a great starting point.

In general, I'd love to read a Wonder Woman book to see Diana spending some of her off hours actively empowering women around the globe. If Superman can stamp out corruption and evil as a journalist, then what can Diana achieve in her non-superhero life? There was a beautiful book and documentary film a few years ago called Half the Sky, and it would please me very much to read about a Wonder Woman who protected, championed, and inspired the women and communities like those depicted in the book/doc. She could do this either as Wonder Woman or as Diana Prince.

On a more specific superhero level, I think it would be great if Wonder Woman pushed the Justice League to recruit and train more female heroes for the team.

I love the idea of Diana empowering women. Both in and out of her role as a hero. I'm usually not the biggest fan of the Diana Prince secret ID, but if "Diana Prince" were to start up some international organization dedicated to improving the lives of women all over the world? I might just warm to the idea after all.

Even if she doesn't start her OWN organization, I'd love to see Diana start working with organizations that already exist in the world. This doesn't even have to downplay her superheroics. Story ideas abound with her doing stuff like this. What if Diana finds out that a supervillain is secretly behind a human trafficking ring? What if Diana discovers that a sudden surge of women turning up at battered women's clinics is the result of some kind of "Hate Demon" that's inflicting their husbands with some kind of insane misogyny? What if the DC equivalent of Boko Haram is holding girls hostage, and he's infused with the power of a god, so that the U.N. literally CAN'T rescue those girls without Diana's help?

And I can't agree enough with the idea of Diana advocating more women on the League. Honestly, I can't fathom why she hasn't done this already. Let's just hope that after this new Crisis (if that's what we're heading for), the League comes out of it more serious about doing their jobs right, and they finally recognize the need for a REAL roster expansion. One that will hopefully see Diana help to bring in a ton of deserving heroines.

[DochaDocha]

Good ideas.

I wouldn't ditch the men. What I think people need to realize about the current run is that even if there is too much of everyone else and not enough of WW, you still get a case that everyone is following WW. She is the leader. If you want to show equality of genders, it's good to show that this woman (or various others) can be the leader of women and men alike.

[Dr. Poison]

I guess I should have written point #1 in my initial post a little differently. While I had no interest in Lennox and I don't care for Azzarello's remix of WAres, my main concern is having strong, powerful, inspiring female characters appearing in Wonder Woman more often. I don't mean that the male characters shouldn't ever appear, I'd just like to see them appear less so that Wonder Woman and other inspiring females can appear more frequently. First things first though, Wonder Woman needs more panel/page time in her own book. I'd like to see the regular supporting cast dwindled down a bit - no matter who they end up being. That being said, Steve Trevor needs to return to this book as a supporting cast member but I do realize he's male so that means he should definitely appear in the book much less than Diana, at least for the first year or so of the new run.

[SofNascimento]

Just keep going what Azzarello is doing.