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  1. #16
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Yeah, Steve Rogers was clearly racist back then.
    Wouldn't be surprised if that sort of response was common within Steve's squads. Also, the bad terms America had with black people back in the day to the point of insulting caricatures.





    Last edited by Electricmastro; 07-22-2019 at 07:48 PM.

  2. #17
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post


    Yeah, Steve Rogers was clearly racist back then.
    “Steve Rogers” is not racist. “Steve Rogers” is a fictional character. The writer at the time and of that issue, Syd Shores, was the culprit there. And as that comic came out in 1943 and there hasn’t been a repeat of any type of that attitude written into Steve since, and given that all of Steve’s writers in the past fifty years have been liberal progressives culminating in the current writer being Ta-Nehisi Coates, I think we can all safely claim that Steve is not racist.

    Also, to claim Steve racist for that panel is a fallacy of logic.

    Presentism is the anachronistic introduction of present-day ideas and perspectives into depictions or interpretations of the past. Some modern historians seek to avoid presentism in their work because they consider it a form of cultural bias, and believe it creates a distorted understanding of their subject matter. The practice of presentism is regarded by some as a common fallacy in historical writing.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    “Steve Rogers” is not racist. “Steve Rogers” is a fictional character. The writer at the time and of that issue, Syd Shores, was the culprit there. And as that comic came out in 1943 and there hasn’t been a repeat of any type of that attitude written into Steve since, and given that all of Steve’s writers in the past fifty years have been liberal progressives culminating in the current writer being Ta-Nehisi Coates, I think we can all safely claim that Steve is not racist.

    Also, to claim Steve racist for that panel is a fallacy of logic.

    Presentism is the anachronistic introduction of present-day ideas and perspectives into depictions or interpretations of the past. Some modern historians seek to avoid presentism in their work because they consider it a form of cultural bias, and believe it creates a distorted understanding of their subject matter. The practice of presentism is regarded by some as a common fallacy in historical writing.
    I strongly get the feeling that panels like that were meant to emphasize on the war effort and reinforce who they felt the enemy was more than a commentary on Steve's overall character. Honestly, the writers of the time could have had any of Timely's heroes say that, character integrity be damned. Whatever the case, I assume most later writers didn't resort to have Steve say use racial slurs, so I suppose it's reasonable enough to say that Steve's overall character isn't racist as of 2019.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 07-22-2019 at 08:10 PM.

  4. #19
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I strongly get the feeling that panels like that were meant to emphasize on the war effort and reinforce who they felt the enemy was more than a commentary on Steve's overall character. Honestly, the writers of the time could have had any of Timely's heroes say that, character integrity be damned. Whatever the case, I assume most later writers didn't resort to have Steve say use racial slurs, so I suppose it's reasonable enough to say that Steve's overall character isn't racist as of 2019.
    They don’t. He’s not. And I agree.

  5. #20
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Sub-Mariner comics in the WWll era are racist as well towards Japanese people, not just those on the axis side. iirc there is a distinct panel where namor says "its good that the japanese americans are in the camps" which harmed so many innocent american japanese people, just like what trump is doing now with immigrant children. Characters aren't racist, the people who write them are, they write what they believe, or they want to push.

    edit: Namor himself also passed himself off as a japanese soldier and was mistaken for one several times. I just remembered several panels where he would remark with racist slurs. However this was only during the war time comics.

    I don't understand this trend where people think that Captain America would vote for trump, he would punch him just like he did hitler.

    There has been racism in comics and media forever and these days people are more educated (i hope) and aware and wise enough to spot those racist depictions.
    Last edited by ImperiusWrecked; 07-22-2019 at 09:23 PM.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  6. #21
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Sub-Mariner comics in the WWll era are racist as well towards Japanese people, not just those on the axis side. iirc there is a distinct panel where namor says "its good that the japanese americans are in the camps" which harmed so many innocent american japanese people, just like what trump is doing now with immigrant children. Characters aren't racist, the people who write them are, they write what they believe, or they want to push.

    edit: Namor himself also passed himself off as a japanese soldier and was mistaken for one several times. I just remembered several panels where he would remark with racist slurs. However this was only during the war time comics.

    I don't understand this trend where people think that Captain America would vote for trump, he would punch him just like he did hitler.

    There has been racism in comics and media forever and these days people are more educated (i hope) and aware and wise enough to spot those racist depictions.
    I think that one of the scariest parts is that if you went back in time and attempted to convince the American public that the Japanese aren't as bad as the media makes them out to be, and that it's bad to support the idea of them being in camps, in a post-Pearl Harbor society, they'd probably punch you like how Captain America punched Hitler. It's not just racism, but a fear, ignorance, and panic that treats the truth and facts like they're a menace. Even the noblest attempts to keep America safe from foreign attacks and corruption from within doesn't justify evil acts, such as putting Japanese people in camps. Same goes for Mexican people as well.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 07-29-2019 at 01:01 PM.

  7. #22
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Sub-Mariner comics in the WWll era are racist as well towards Japanese people, not just those on the axis side. iirc there is a distinct panel where namor says "its good that the japanese americans are in the camps" which harmed so many innocent american japanese people, just like what trump is doing now with immigrant children. Characters aren't racist, the people who write them are, they write what they believe, or they want to push.

    edit: Namor himself also passed himself off as a japanese soldier and was mistaken for one several times. I just remembered several panels where he would remark with racist slurs. However this was only during the war time comics.

    I don't understand this trend where people think that Captain America would vote for trump, he would punch him just like he did hitler.

    There has been racism in comics and media forever and these days people are more educated (i hope) and aware and wise enough to spot those racist depictions.
    It’s ignorance. And spite. A section of fandom as a whole is incapable of showing any maturity past that of a two-year-old. Actually, I’ve had a two-year-old, she showed more maturity at that age than fandom does now. In my experience the Golden Age racist panels ONLY come up when either an X-Men or Stark fan really want the world to know that they hate Captain America because of AvX and Civil War respectively. Never mind that Steve has been written by over 50 writers (and that’s just his solo title). Never mind that 95% of the Captain American content has exhibited Steve’s heroism, liberalism and compassion. Never mind that Steve has gone ON RECORD to be: pro-immigration, an ally for gender and racial equality, supports prison reform, was one of the first comics to a) have a gay character (Arnie Roth) and b) have Steve say, in 1982, when Reagan was ignoring the AIDS crises and bigotry against the LGBTQ community was rampant, that Arnie’s relationship with his boyfriend Michael was goals and anyone who said otherwise was the jerk. Never mind that Steve has fans who just want to love their character in peace.

    No. People are going to stick to the “choose your side” marketing, never mind the actual facts of the situation and no matter that it reflects poorly on them to do so.

    Cherry Picking ought to be punishable by large fines, all donated to various charities.

    It’s annoying as hell.

  8. #23
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    And to put my money where my mouth is, here’s Steve doing all the things I just said he did.

    Pro-immigration:

    unnamed (3).jpg

    Ally to the LGBTQ community before anyone else was doing it:

    IMG_0363.jpg

    Gender and racial equality (this panel is of Steve freshly off the ice, when Tony was showing him around):

    IMG_0361.jpg
    Last edited by capandkirby; 07-22-2019 at 10:53 PM.

  9. #24
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    And to put my money where my mouth is, here’s Steve doing all the things I just said he did.

    Pro-immigration:

    Attachment 84960

    Ally to the LGBTQ community before anyone else was doing it:

    Attachment 84961

    Gender and racial equality (this panel is of Steve freshly off the ice, when Tony was showing him around):

    Attachment 84962
    Magneto proving Steve has no bigotry inside him conclusively:

    unnamed (5).jpg

    Steve saying he hates war:

    IMG_0360.jpg

    Steve giving a speech on the dangers of nationalism:

    unnamed (4).jpg
    Last edited by capandkirby; 07-22-2019 at 10:55 PM.

  10. #25
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    These panels came from six different writers, which hopefully exhibits the ignorance inherent in defining an intellectual property as old as Steve by one.

    Oops, forgot the prison reform. Make that seven different writers...

    unnamed.jpg

    Also fixed the images so they weren't so small. Hate posting from my phone.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 07-22-2019 at 10:57 PM.

  11. #26
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post


    Yeah, Steve Rogers was clearly racist back then.
    Different times, people.

    Steve Rogers became who he was in part because of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor and all the American soldiers killed in that attack.

    The Japanese were the enemy. They weren't thought of as nice-but-misguided people then.

    Yes, in all the years after the war, our outlook on what is appropriate or not has changed and evolved. But if you want to have soldiers who will fight and kill the enemy in a kill-or-be-killed situation, you don't treat them gently and with respect until maybe the battle / the war is over and you've won. If you want the American people to support the war effort, you aren't going to make the enemy look like people with merely a difference of opinion from them.

    That was then. You need to keep things in context.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Different times, people.

    Steve Rogers became who he was in part because of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor and all the American soldiers killed in that attack.

    The Japanese were the enemy. They weren't thought of as nice-but-misguided people then.

    Yes, in all the years after the war, our outlook on what is appropriate or not has changed and evolved. But if you want to have soldiers who will fight and kill the enemy in a kill-or-be-killed situation, you don't treat them gently and with respect until maybe the battle / the war is over and you've won. If you want the American people to support the war effort, you aren't going to make the enemy look like people with merely a difference of opinion from them.

    That was then. You need to keep things in context.
    Yep, if we're going to talk about racist-driven caricatures, we might as well talk about them with context, as well as facts, evidence, and research, to back all of our claims up.

    And to add more perspective, there was at least one comic that so no to racial intolerance, which was How Boys and Girls Can Help Win the War (1942), although it did feel a little backwards with the certain images shown in the page.

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 09-19-2019 at 07:18 PM.

  13. #28
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Circulation figures remained close to a million copies per month after the debut issue, which outstripped even the circulation of news magazines such as Time during the period
    It was definitely enough of a top-seller for him to be considered top 3 alongside Namor and Human Torch.

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