POLL: Must the current Superman be fully integrated into current continuity ?

[JasonTodd428]

Ultimately I dont care as long as the stories are quality, so that's what I voted for. All I ask for is good writing with a Superman who I can recognize as fitting within the rough, flexible framework of the character. If I get that I can accept just about anything.

But if I had to pick a side....you know what, let him remain a refugee from a dead timeline.

It causes tons of problems and it disconnects him from his regular supporting cast, villains, and status quo and removes basically all his connections to everyone outside of Lois and Jon. It throws a huge, massive wrench into the machinery. Not to mention it complicates his origin.

And Im actually fine with that because it will force writers to build new connections.

I dont know how it would play out long term. I dont know if it *could* play out long term. It might be a time bomb waiting to blow up (Ive assumed it is from the start, but what do I know?) I certainly dont think there's any way to rebuild the standard status quo without making Superdad a creepy stalker who takes over a dead man's life. But the current setup is, if you forget the terrible way we got here, pretty interesting. The addition of Jon adds a new, very human twist to the character and provides a grounding effect that many fans can relate to. Yet by its very nature it pushes the "bigger than life" mentality, as every father tries to be a Superman for his children. And the "time lost refugee" angle is ramping up the sci-fi and fantastical elements while also keeping the "lonely god" aspects prominently intact (and oddly enough that's a very human concept). Its like taking two of the fundamental concepts of Superman and pulling them to their extremes, but still maintaining a balance.

He might not have the same kind of connection to Jim or Perry or the Planet or Lex, but so what? Build new connections. Hitch is doing that in Justice League and there's no reason you can't do that within the Super-mythos.

I think theres a very interesting and unique version of Superman here, and if you make him the "proper" Superman of this timeline that potential gets lost in favor of the same old same old. And I am all about forward movement, so let's see where this goes instead of running from it as soon as it starts to get interesting, like they did with Truth.

Absolutely love your post and I agree. Leave him a refugee from a dead timeline. I'm far more interested in seeing what they do with this unique version of Superman and in seeing him reestablish his connections then I am in seeing the gymnastics involved in trying to make him having been the Superman of this timeline all along. I see far more potential in the first option and nothing but a mess in the second.

[Sacred Knight]

It holds no interest for me whatsoever. Its old already, to be honest. I have no interest in a refugee Superman with no history of relationships with anyone except his wife and son. Its beyond goofy to me to reincorporate all this history, but when it comes to the relationships formed over all that time, the only character it doesn't matter for at all is Superman. Its completely counter-productive, and just doesn't work for a character of his status.

[Ascended]

He can be The Superman but it's so strange for the Nu 52 Lois and Clark to just vanish. They have to keep that history. What would happen if he somehow interacts with 52s parents?

That's sort of what Im thinking. What sort of weird, new stories could you tell with a Superman who is not a native of the universe?

Everyone was de-aged in the New52, including Perry. Now Perry isn't that much older than Superdad (certainly older but not like it was). If DC has some balls and doesnt retcon out the last few years or fold Superdad into the history, what would the interactions be like between Clark and Perry now? I can actually see them becoming close friends, with none of the "mentor/student" dynamics they used to have, and that's interesting. You dont even have to have Clark working at the Planet for this to happen, you just have to have them meet each other.

What would happen if Superdad travels back in time and meets the Kents of the 52 before they died? That'd be such a f**ked up, heart-breaking story no matter how you play it. Does Superdad tell them the truth? Does he play along to save them pain? How does that affect him?

We're seeing how the League deals with this new Superman and I gotta admit, I like how unsure they are. Yeah, the guy's a Superman. That's obvious. He's trustworthy enough to call him in when giant space monsters are eating the planet. But they're very concerned and I dare say afraid, and that's a really fun twist. Obviously it wont last and they'll build relationships and trust of their own, but the fact that Superdad isn't the guy they knew is going to impact that going forward. Especially with Diana.

Its a rare thing but if DC holds its course (which I am certain they wont do) we could actually get a (somewhat) brand new Superman construct. Imagine that. Something new, after 80 years. How is that not worth exploring? Seems more fun to me than the same old status quo (much as I love that status quo and consider aspects of it critical to the character)

And if nothing else it could tackle and solve some of the fundamental issues that Myskin likes to bring up.

[Johnny Thunders!]

That's sort of what Im thinking. What sort of weird, new stories could you tell with a Superman who is not a native of the universe?

Everyone was de-aged in the New52, including Perry. Now Perry isn't that much older than Superdad (certainly older but not like it was). If DC has some balls and doesnt retcon out the last few years or fold Superdad into the history, what would the interactions be like between Clark and Perry now? I can actually see them becoming close friends, with none of the "mentor/student" dynamics they used to have, and that's interesting. You dont even have to have Clark working at the Planet for this to happen, you just have to have them meet each other.

What would happen if Superdad travels back in time and meets the Kents of the 52 before they died? That'd be such a f**ked up, heart-breaking story no matter how you play it. Does Superdad tell them the truth? Does he play along to save them pain? How does that affect him?

We're seeing how the League deals with this new Superman and I gotta admit, I like how unsure they are. Yeah, the guy's a Superman. That's obvious. He's trustworthy enough to call him in when giant space monsters are eating the planet. But they're very concerned and I dare say afraid, and that's a really fun twist. Obviously it wont last and they'll build relationships and trust of their own, but the fact that Superdad isn't the guy they knew is going to impact that going forward. Especially with Diana.

Its a rare thing but if DC holds its course (which I am certain they wont do) we could actually get a (somewhat) brand new Superman construct. Imagine that. Something new, after 80 years. How is that not worth exploring? Seems more fun to me than the same old status quo (much as I love that status quo and consider aspects of it critical to the character)

And if nothing else it could tackle and solve some of the fundamental issues that Myskin likes to bring up.

How could the League not arrest Superdad and Lex? Lois and Clark disintegrated, new doppelgängers show up. Lex is wearing his cape? I would be paranoid, and if I was Diana, I'd ask for a lasso test.

[manofsteel1979]

Ascended brings up a few good points,but I get the feeling DC really doesn't want to explore this to it's fullest. They want to just handwave it all and go on business as usual as quickly as possible and are hoping that many will just shrug their shoulders and move on after a few months. I get the feeling that they may just pull a Seymour Skinner here...but not for a comedic punchline. For those that don't get that reference... Google and YouTube are your friends.

The thing is though...based on many here who have responded,it sounds like more among us may be ok with that. I'm not sure I could honestly... UNLESS they embrace this dynamic totally and build the new connections and play with the new possibilities Ascended mentions. Otherwise,they do need to fix the continuity issue if they intend to fully return to the complete classic status quo ( plus Jon of course). In my opinion you just can't just ignore there was another Superman who died and his alternative dimensional counterpart is now living his life and move on business as usual.

Either crap or get off the pot.Either fully embrace it and acknowledge that big caped elephant in the room and use it as a launching pad for new stories,or basically bring back the preFlashpoint Metropolis cast and history with a few small New 52 tweaks if one must with an explanation that definitively says Rebirth Superman is and always have been the native Superman of the current continuity.

But then again,perhaps myself and Sacred Knight are alone in the wilderness.

[Sacred Knight]

Stories are already being hurt by the set-up, imo. The Lex and Superman dynamic in Action? I don't care as much as I should (outside the poor writing). Because these two have no history. This is not "Lex's Superman" and this is not "Superman's Lex". If you were starting from the beginning, then obviously that's no issue. But not only are they not starting from the beginning, they're adding time back in. So I don't care about a character and his archnemesis just beginning their dynamic. I want it already there, already established. Lois going back to the Planet? She's just going to be pretending to know these people. But she doesn't. Why the hell should I care about Lois finally getting back to Planet based stories if this isn't her Jimmy, if this isn't her Perry? And so on and so forth.

Its a dumb concept that needs to be fixed ASAP. There needs to be memories that are lost to them that they don't even realize are lost, and when they come back they realize that this is their Earth lock stock and barrel, and that these ARE their friends, allies, contemporaries, and enemies, and that they remember them and vice versa. Nothing less will do.

[Flash Gordon]

Stories are already being hurt by the set-up, imo. The Lex and Superman dynamic in Action? I don't care as much as I should (outside the poor writing). Because these two have no history. This is not "Lex's Superman" and this is not "Superman's Lex". If you were starting from the beginning, then obviously that's no issue. But not only are they not starting from the beginning, they're adding time back in. So I don't care about a character and his archnemesis just beginning their dynamic. I want it already there, already established. Lois going back to the Planet? She's just going to be pretending to know these people. But she doesn't. Why the hell should I care about Lois finally getting back to Planet based stories if this isn't her Jimmy, if this isn't her Perry? And so on and so forth.

Its a dumb concept that needs to be fixed ASAP. There needs to be memories that are lost to them that they don't even realize are lost, and when they come back they realize that this is their Earth lock stock and barrel, and that these ARE their friends, allies, contemporaries, and enemies, and that they remember them and vice versa. Nothing less will do.

I 100% agree with SK.

This is not an interesting set up, it's navel gazing and played solely to a specific demographic. It's virtually new reader-proof. They need to just plow past it already. Either bring Superman back and have him help this other Superman bring his own world back, or make him the actual main Superman with memories that he lost and just jump back into a cohesive world again.

[Sacred Knight]

It could be an instance in which they're trying to play that stupid game of doing one thing but wanting the perk of something else, if they actually want to keep this set up. They wanted an older Superman with a family. So they put it back in. Fine. But if you also want the perk of a "just starting out" Superman on Earth? I'm sorry but no. You don't get to do both things. You don't always get to have the best of both worlds. You had that new beginning with the reboot and didn't like it enough to keep it, apparently. Don't try and force it in a lame way going forward when you've made the decision to go back to a longer and layered history.

To their credit they seem to be accomplishing this well enough with the unfolding Rebirth narrative throughout the rest of the line. Its just with Superman there's the threat of continuing with this wanting their cake and eat it too mindset which is re-establishing a nonsensical lore that was killing the character just 5 years ago. And with virtually no effort this one change has the lore even worse off than it was back then. The current tales, at least in Superman, may be pretty good right now. But the underlying concept behind it all is displaying the same lack of coherent vision for the character that has been dogging it for over a decade now. And that weight will begin to weigh it down, good stories or no. Again, this all if there are no immediate plans to streamline it. If there are, then these problems will at least be on track to go away.

[Lightning Rider]

Voted for the 1st and 4th options. Ultimately I won't complain if the story is good, like it is now, but I don't think people will just roll with it. It's too weird to have him inheriting friendships and relationships he didn't actually develop on this Earth.

[JAK]

Ascended brings up a few good points,but I get the feeling DC really doesn't want to explore this to it's fullest. They want to just handwave it all and go on business as usual as quickly as possible and are hoping that many will just shrug their shoulders and move on after a few months. I get the feeling that they may just pull a Seymour Skinner here...but not for a comedic punchline. For those that don't get that reference... Google and YouTube are your friends.

The thing is though...based on many here who have responded,it sounds like more among us may be ok with that.

Yeah... the "we just won't talk about it" part would be really weird here and would just fall on it's arse. What I'd like to see is exploring this for awhile before the "rebirth melding" takes effect. Jurgens is, imo, a great continuity guy, so let him spearhead the direction on it. If it's like most things, he'll play with it and explore it for a bit, then ultimately resolve it. Some people are still bruising from the changes (the changes are fresh so that'll be the case for some time yet) and I understand that - I'll still be in the same boat with the DCEU even if Justice League turns out to not be utter garbage lol - but in the big picture this could be a very interesting period. I see potential story patterns in where things could go that remind me of my favorite aspects of the books from when I was so excited to be a reader.

I mean, DC could also completely screw it up. They have a knack for that. But I'm willing, and surprisingly interested, in letting this play out for a bit before they trip over themselves in trying to reach for the reset button. lol

[Doctor Bifrost]

How could the League not arrest Superdad and Lex? Lois and Clark disintegrated, new doppelgängers show up. Lex is wearing his cape? I would be paranoid, and if I was Diana, I'd ask for a lasso test.

Which would certainly lead to SuperDad... not being arrested. He hasn't done anything illegal that I know of. It's not like the League is unfamiliar with the concept of parallel worlds.

I doubt Lex would agree to a lasso test, though. Does Diana need a warrant for that?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

He already has been integrated into current DC continuity. It happened with the DC Rebirth special when they established that there's something wrong with the timestream and people's memories, in addition to Oz outright telling him he is not what he thinks he is.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

I'm shocked - not in a "you imbiciles! How can you be so foolish?!" way by any stretch, to be clear, but in a "I genuinely cannot even begin to parse how we've reached this stage" sense - that the idea of Superman as strange visitor from another universe is being floated around as a legitimate possibility. Don't get me wrong, the immediate consequences can largely be handwaved, but the idea of Superman seriously being a continuity-zombie who wandered in from a previous universe and took over a dead man's life as the Very Official DC Continuity for the next 5 to 20 to ????? years is beyond inconceivable. But honestly, who even knows what DC's doing at this point? Like, they may well not themselves.

The one thing I have to majorly, unequivocally contest is any kind of assertion that this will 'force' good stories. No set of circumstances is so strict and full of potential that it will necessarily wring good stories out of bad writers and a disinterested editorial regime. They've already started handwaving away as much stuff as possible (the Justice League tacitly accepts him in 1 issue, he and Lois look the same age so they'll be able to reinsert themselves into their counterpart's lives if/when they so choose, the planet has already accepted him, him talking about the differences between their universes has rapidly fallen by the wayside, etc.) so they can tell regular Superman stories + Jon with minimal interruption until whatever happens in 2018 rolls around and forces their hand. While on a conceptual level none of this is any less insane than it was a few months ago - hence why it'll ultimately have to go - the actual practical storytelling effects have already been dismissed as much as possible or are on the road to the same, outside of Jon.

If anything this strikes me as similar to Superman Blue, in that my understanding is that within a month or two of the shift writers switched back to telling totally normal Superman stories where he incidentally looked different and had to fit in some extra exposition now and again, until the obvious "this is never going to happen for real" nature of the premise forced them to throw everything into reverse at the last minute. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I suspect the Superman Blue comparison - insane transformation hearkening back to olden times with stories of middling-to-crap quality that never even explores any of its most interesting ideas inside the main book before everything goes back to normal (even if 'normal' means reboot, which frankly is normal for Superman at this point) - could very well end up a popular and reasonable reference point for this arc in terms of what happened and why it didn't work. Heck, Dan Jurgens is even leading the charge on this one too!

[Doctor Bifrost]

But then again,perhaps myself and Sacred Knight are alone in the wilderness.

Not entirely. I certainly agree with you that if they're going to do it, they should do it, and not handwave over the issues this introduces.

But my guess is that they don't want to really explore it in the depth it calls for, because it would be such a change - many would say a distraction - from the more standard superhero stories that DC has built its business on.

Superman's not the only character in this situation. I mean, look at Garth. If I understand correctly, he had a career as Aqualad, sidekick to Aquaman and then member of the Teen Titans. He fought villains, he had relationships with people, he saved muggles. Maybe he even became Tempest. (Although the manner in which that happened in the pre-Flashpoint period doesn't seem applicable any more.)

Then he forgot all about all of that. And so did Aquaman. And so did everyone else in the world - his friends, his enemies, the muggles he saved. And all the physical, video, and digital evidence vanished too - photos, newspaper archives, Facebook posts. ("Selfie with me and Aqualad after his fight with Phobia in Monterey today! HE'S SO KEWL! <3!") And everybody got new, fake memories. (Phobia doesn't remember being defeated by Aqualad. Either she forgot the caper altogether, or she remembers getting defeated by Cyborg, or....) Everybody's fake memories all match, and new physical/video/digital evidence exists to corroborate it. 'Cause Lilith is just that powerful, y'all! And everybody started to live their lives, and make their decisions, based on these fake experiences.

I mean, that's what happened, right? Or something like it? And now everyone's memories are coming back. (And the evidence is changing, too.) Do they remember the real memories and the fake memories? Are they suddenly horrified that they based their lives on fake experiences that someone imposed on them somehow? Do the old relationships seem real, or dream-like, or...?

See, if this were a science fiction/fantasy novel, I would expect the author to explore those difficult issues, and how the characters are affected by them. In fact, I'd expect that that, more than anything else, is what the story would be about. But currently it is not my impression that DC has any interest in this at all. They wanted a particular destination point - the old Teen Titans remember their time together and are friends again - and so they threw some big deus ex machina, don't-look-to-close techniques at it, and now that's where we are. And all the really weird aspects about how being put through that ringer would affect characters (not just Aqualad, not just the Teen Titans, but everybody in the world they ever knew or met) is not what they want to explore or write stories about, so they'll just paper it over. It's not like we've never seen it before.

I am taking a wait-and-see attitude, and reading the books - and enjoying some of them - while they work their way up to the whole Wally West and Dr. Manhattan punchline. But I'm not one who thinks that a fictional setting - a timeline, a shared universe, whatever you want to call it - should be stitched together like Frankenstein's Monster, especially if the writers are going to ignore the very conspicuous seams.

And, after all, when The New 52 started, I allowed myself to get interested in the whole "Who is this Pandora in every issue, and where will it lead?" intrigue. And as far as I can tell that pretty much fizzled out. Should I expect worthwhile follow-though this time? Don't they say, "Fool me once, shame on you; but fool me twice...."?

But that's just me. Rant over. Be well, everyone.

[Jon Clark]

Look the Post-Crisis Supergirl (Matrix) went away because it was too hard to explain her history and connection to Superman. Alan's battery had to be made into a former Oan battery that was altered because having two characters with a similar concept that weren't directly connected was too hard. Even the Superboy concept went from "clone made from human stock but altered to have simulated versions of Superman's powers" to "50% Superman clone" to twice (and currently) "Son of Superman".

And people actually think there is a chance in Hades that Superman won't at least slowly (if not quickly) be reduced to a simple "born in the current DCU" status? Dan Didio and his bosses seem to like things that can be explained in a sentence or two ... if you need to reference past Supermen (and Loises) they aren't going to let it stand.