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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member GigiFusc's Avatar
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    Default Why so much hate for All star Batman & Robin?

    I hadn't even heard of it until a few days ago. So I read all 10 issues over the last couple of days.

    I've read some real hate for it on the forums here and I'm not sure why? I really enjoyed it. I'm a bit puzzled by the fact there's no issue 11... But that aside, I thought it was a well written, well drawn, a bit too mysogenistic for my liking (but most superhero comics are tbf). I thought it showed a new side to Bats that kind of linked Millers year one with DKR. Unhinged, pissed off, jaded, angry, bitter, resentful, rude. Pretty much an else worlds Batman - What if... batman was more like the Joker?

    Anyway. I'm sure I'll get a kicking for this but I am genuinely interested to understand what's going on with this one..
    Last edited by GigiFusc; 09-22-2016 at 01:42 AM.

  2. #2
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    I would go into all the details about how awful this series is, but I don't have enough time to. Here's some fantastic reviews about ASBAR: http://atopthefourthwall.com/category/at4w/miller-time/
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  3. #3
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    What you described is exactly what younger Miller`s Batman was. If you read The Last Crusade, there`s direct references to it. Miller`s Batman is perhaps touched mostly from European Graphic Novel heroes than necessarily standard superhero structure. It`s something I`ve seen titled as "hardboyled".

    It`s great.

  4. #4
    The Dark Knight
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    I was still thinking about getting it just by the intrigue but as it's an unfinished collection, I don't know.

  5. #5
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zep81 View Post
    Why so much hate for All Star Batman & Robin?
    Expectations were high, Miller and Lee. And it's just not most people's modern Batman and modern Batman is popular. It will never fit Year One Batman either IMHO, no matter the context people try to claim. All Star B&R is just really really bad. Hamfisted excuse for Miller to write an overly abusive and crazy Batman (going way too far to make his point about Robin helping Batman change). Plus, I don't know how many early issues feel like they take place in the Batmobile.

    I love me some flawed rough early-career Batman stories...and the good ones are found in Legends of the Dark Knight from the 1990s (and elsewhere) and not in Miller's terrible All Star B&R.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 09-21-2016 at 12:57 PM.
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  6. #6
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    I don't hate it. I just didn't really care for it when I read it.
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  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Not all comics are made for everybody. Tonally and in terms of content, it wasn't really designed to appeal to everyone, or even the same person all the time.

    It wasn't the comic everyone wrote and drew in their head, either, which can be a problem for some readers.

    And, to be honest, a number of vocal batfans have trouble with Batman having any kind of learning curve or flaws he can grow past and All-Star makes effort to highlight young Batman's flaws, to demonstrate why he needs a Robin (and a Gordon, and an Alfred, and other superheroes) to temper him and push him into maturation. It's a stacked deck story and it starts by showing us the craziest, silliest cards it can.
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  8. #8
    Fantastic Member GigiFusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    I would go into all the details about how awful this series is, but I don't have enough time to. Here's some fantastic reviews about ASBAR: http://atopthefourthwall.com/category/at4w/miller-time/
    Yeh, sorry mate. I'm 2:30 in and I can't listen to that guy anymore. He's off the scale annoying and so far hasn't outlined a single actual problem with the comic other than he personally thinks it's bad and that the delayed releasing of issues was off the scale pathetic.

    On the first point - that's 100% subjective. On the second point, yes, he has a good point. However, I have been protected from that by the gift of time travel.

    I'm happy to hear any actual points pointing out exactly why it was bad but I've yet to read any? Is this just Miller hate? Or as has been pointed out below, are readers today just not willing to accept an alternate version of Batman that makes him out to be a fucking nutcase?

    BTW - How the fuck do you watch that guy?!?!? Jesus. He has to be the worst youtuber I've ever seen!

    Quote Originally Posted by zep81 View Post
    I was still thinking about getting it just by the intrigue but as it's an unfinished collection, I don't know.
    I didn't realise it was unfinished when I read it. Now that I know, I think it's still worth reading but only if you're ok with Miller presenting a VERY different Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    Expectations were high, Miller and Lee. And it's just not most people's modern Batman and modern Batman is popular. It will never fit Year One Batman either IMHO, no matter the context people try to claim. All Star B&R is just really really bad. Hamfisted excuse for Miller to write an overly abusive and crazy Batman (going way too far to make his point about Robin helping Batman change). Plus, I don't know how many early issues feel like they take place in the Batmobile.

    I love me some flawed rough early-career Batman stories...and the good ones are found in Legends of the Dark Knight from the 1990s (and elsewhere) and not in Miller's terrible All Star B&R.
    I'm not sure I can see any clear crit here. Hamfisted, overly abusive, crazy? yeh, I agree. But isn't that just this alternate version of Bats that Miller's trying to portray?

    Are you offended by this portrayal because it isn't the Batman you know?

    Oh - I do also agree that the first few issues seem to take place in about a 1 hour time frame much of which B&R are in the Batmobile. But I got past that pretty quickly tbh.

  9. #9
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    First time I read through Millerbats I read them in this order.

    Year One
    ASBAR
    The Last Crusade
    TDKR
    TDKSA
    TDKIV currently reading, finished #5

    I noticed with regards to ASBAR that people said that this could never ever be the same Batman as in Year One, because he's too violent and too ignoble. Once I had read all of them, I just definitely didn't agree. In Year One, Batman goes around talking like a soldier, the enemy this, the enemy that, punches cops through walls. His dislike for both thugs and crooked cops is apparent. He comes across as a bit nutty to me.

    Then we get to ASBAR where he's violent as all hell and even kills people, but I fail to see how this is so far removed from YO Batman? He's just gotten too into it, the violence, his batman persona. Is it so difficult to see him going off the rails after YO? He came off as someone who was walking a very fine line. I feel like people reacted too strongly that this wasn't "their" Batman, but to me, that's kind of the point, this is Frank's Batman. Also, only a lunatic would recruit a kid as a soldier to wage a war on crime, and he's definitely a lunatic in ASBAR, but it makes it all the more jarring in main continuity that he would ever recruit preteens to fight crime. Yet, in ASBAR this crazy goddamn Batman even says he wanted to wait a few years with recruiting Dick Grayson, but that plan changed when Dick's parents were murdered in front of his eyes.

    Obviously, he has people around him that tempers him, Dick being one, Jason being another I guess, with Batman being more sane and systematic in The Last Crusade and TDKR. But in TDKSA, he's too into being Batman again, and it even builds up to it more and more in TDKR, and that side we see of him in ASBAR comes out again even during TDKR IMHO, but more pronounced in TDKSA. Also, Alfred is dead in that one.

    In Miller's Batman, I feel we have a far more human Batman (even though his action can be very inhumane), an actual character with actual flaws in Miller's Batman, and that's why ALL of them are so good.

    That said, I wouldn't like Miller's style of Batman in main continuity, it should strictly be Miller's elseworlds Batman.

  10. #10
    Fantastic Member GigiFusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcoBatman View Post
    First time I read through Millerbats I read them in this order.

    Year One
    ASBAR
    The Last Crusade
    TDKR
    TDKSA
    TDKIV currently reading, finished #5

    I noticed with regards to ASBAR that people said that this could never ever be the same Batman as in Year One, because he's too violent and too ignoble. Once I had read all of them, I just definitely didn't agree. In Year One, Batman goes around talking like a soldier, the enemy this, the enemy that, punches cops through walls. His dislike for both thugs and crooked cops is apparent. He comes across as a bit nutty to me.

    Then we get to ASBAR where he's violent as all hell and even kills people, but I fail to see how this is so far removed from YO Batman? He's just gotten too into it, the violence, his batman persona. Is it so difficult to see him going off the rails after YO? He came off as someone who was walking a very fine line. I feel like people reacted too strongly that this wasn't "their" Batman, but to me, that's kind of the point, this is Frank's Batman. Also, only a lunatic would recruit a kid as a soldier to wage a war on crime, and he's definitely a lunatic in ASBAR, but it makes it all the more jarring in main continuity that he would ever recruit preteens to fight crime. Yet, in ASBAR this crazy goddamn Batman even says he wanted to wait a few years with recruiting Dick Grayson, but that plan changed when Dick's parents were murdered in front of his eyes.

    Obviously, he has people around him that tempers him, Dick being one, Jason being another I guess, with Batman being more sane and systematic in The Last Crusade and TDKR. But in TDKSA, he's too into being Batman again, and it even builds up to it more and more in TDKR, and that side we see of him in ASBAR comes out again even during TDKR IMHO, but more pronounced in TDKSA. Also, Alfred is dead in that one.

    In Miller's Batman, I feel we have a far more human Batman (even though his action can be very inhumane), an actual character with actual flaws in Miller's Batman, and that's why ALL of them are so good.

    That said, I wouldn't like Miller's style of Batman in main continuity, it should strictly be Miller's elseworlds Batman.
    Think you hit how I feel about it perfectly. I see him as a Batman that has totally lost his way (as well as his mind) and is on track to becoming the DKR Batman. None of Millers DK series should be considered as mainline continuity - this is a completely different, alternate Batman right? Hasn't that been addressed anyway with them saying this Batman is from Multiverse... whatever number it was?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    Not all comics are made for everybody. Tonally and in terms of content, it wasn't really designed to appeal to everyone, or even the same person all the time.

    It wasn't the comic everyone wrote and drew in their head, either, which can be a problem for some readers.

    And, to be honest, a number of vocal batfans have trouble with Batman having any kind of learning curve or flaws he can grow past and All-Star makes effort to highlight young Batman's flaws, to demonstrate why he needs a Robin (and a Gordon, and an Alfred, and other superheroes) to temper him and push him into maturation. It's a stacked deck story and it starts by showing us the craziest, silliest cards it can.
    Batman being flawed I can deal with. When he suffers zero repercussions for those flaws, is when I have a problem.

    For that matter, promoting the idea that someone should stay in an abusive relationship with their abuser to temper them is all kinds of messed up.

  12. #12
    Amazing Member Jay Dogg's Avatar
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    I don't get it when people create threads like these. They ask for people's reasons, but in many ways, answer their own question already.

  13. #13
    Fantastic Member GigiFusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Dogg View Post
    I don't get it when people create threads like these. They ask for people's reasons, but in many ways, answer their own question already.
    Please don't feel that you have to read or reply to my post. Honestly, I won't be offended. It's fine. Honestly......

  14. #14
    Fantastic Member GigiFusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Batman being flawed I can deal with. When he suffers zero repercussions for those flaws, is when I have a problem.

    For that matter, promoting the idea that someone should stay in an abusive relationship with their abuser to temper them is all kinds of messed up.
    So, you're saying you don't like it that Batman behaves like an arsehole and really hurts people without having to pay the consequences for that?

    Yeh, that's a good point. I see that. Although - kidnapping Dick has turned the police on him as well as the JL characters. GL also does call him out for the way he violently hurts criminals. So I wonder if in the full script he does get his arse handed to him, but we never get to see that because, well, there's no issue 11.... But you're right, I do feel that someone needs to give him a kicking - WW or Supes are the likely candidates. I would love to have seen that actually.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Batman being flawed I can deal with. When he suffers zero repercussions for those flaws, is when I have a problem.
    Him accidentally turning Dick Grayson into a psychotic killer who almost murdered Hal Jordan was a repercussion.

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