Why so much hate for All star Batman & Robin?

[Mr. Mastermind]

It's sort of a parody of the modern arsehole Batman created by writers following Miller, but everyone expected it to be a serious prequel to DKR. I have a hard time believing anyone could have written the script seriously.

[Batarang]

Probably cause it gave flaws to the characters which wasn't liked by the regular fan base because their heroes usually depicted as all that's good in thier earth and some sex panels lol

Flaws like Wonder Woman was sexist and had a bad mouth lol this pissed off Wonder Woman fans, Batman had a giant ego, bad mouth, didn't know how to treat kids right so this pissed off some Batman fans. Robin was bloodthirsty etc. Batman talked about Superman like he's some kind of worthless idiot so this pissed the Superman fans off. Green Lantern was dumb lol beaten by Robin lol and Batman stole his ring so this pissed the Green Lantern fans off. Batman slept with Black Canary on the sex depertmant and this pissed off Green Arrow&Black Canary shippers lol Joker killed the woman who slept with him... this probably pissed off the woman in refrigerator people.

And on the art departmant, it was objectifiying Wicky Vale so this pissed the feminists off.

so this was how the book had so much hate lol

[GreenLanternRanger]

Its very well written tho. Ive yet to see a single argument made against the work itself, people just say "its bad" or "i dont like that batman gets to do this". But objectively speaking its better than many highly praised batman stories in terms of writing.

But it's not well written. And there is nothing objective about it. A person liking or disliking something is always subjective. Just because you don't personally agree with the points Linkara or others make about the flaws of ASBAR, that does'nt make them invalid.

Again, you have the right to like it, there is nothing wrong with that. But dismissing the flaws others point out with it as invalid is just silly.

[Jim Kelly]

I only bought the first issue, but my frustration with the comic was much more fundamental. There wasn't a lot there. You were expected to pay a lot of money for a comic that delivered very little story. Maybe if I had been a Jim Lee fan, I would have been happy to pay for lushly inked and coloured full page panels and two-page spreads with little story value. But I felt insulted--that Frank Miller was getting away with writing a comic he actually spent very little time writing--probably being paid very well for that--knowing that he didn't have to bother, because a lot of people would buy it just because it was Miller and Lee and just because it was Batman and Robin.

Compare Year One with ASBAR and I'm willing to bet there's just as much story development in five pages of Year One as there is in one whole issue of ASBAR.

[Earth-2 Refugee]

I hadn't even heard of it until a few days ago. So I read all 10 issues over the last couple of days.

I've read some real hate for it on the forums here and I'm not sure why? I really enjoyed it. I'm a bit puzzled by the fact there's no issue 11... But that aside, I thought it was a well written, well drawn, a bit too mysogenistic for my liking (but most superhero comics are tbf). I thought it showed a new side to Bats that kind of linked Millers year one with DKR. Unhinged, pissed off, jaded, angry, bitter, resentful, rude. Pretty much an else worlds Batman - What if... batman was more like the Joker?

Anyway. I'm sure I'll get a kicking for this but I am genuinely interested to understand what's going on with this one..

1) The release schedule was garbage, sending out 10 issues over the course of 4 years when it should have taken 2 years to finish the 12 issue series.
2) Miller has Vicki Vale in a bra and panties for multiple pages simply to entice the reader (excerpts from the script prove this)
3) Batman calls Robin retarded hours after he witnesses his parents' deaths
4) All of the misogynistic writing
5) The worst Joker I've ever seen, not even having him smile
6) Black Canary's origin makes no sense, and is rather idiotic overall
7) Batman and Black Canary have sex in the rain after only just met and beat up some people
8) The time stamps that make the entire comic a confusing time warp
9) Batman hinting that he would have taken Dick Grayson eventually, even if the murders didn't happen
10) The horrible treatment Dick Grayson gets such as being forced to eat cave rats
11) For a book called Batman and Robin, there is very little Robin
12) The horrible pacing
13) The extremely repetitive dialogue!

[t hedge coke]

1) The release schedule was garbage, sending out 10 issues over the course of 4 years when it should have taken 2 years to finish the 12 issue series.
2) Miller has Vicki Vale in a bra and panties for multiple pages simply to entice the reader (excerpts from the script prove this)
3) Batman calls Robin retarded hours after he witnesses his parents' deaths
4) All of the misogynistic writing
5) The worst Joker I've ever seen, not even having him smile
6) Black Canary's origin makes no sense, and is rather idiotic overall
7) Batman and Black Canary have sex in the rain after only just met and beat up some people
8) The time stamps that make the entire comic a confusing time warp
9) Batman hinting that he would have taken Dick Grayson eventually, even if the murders didn't happen
10) The horrible treatment Dick Grayson gets such as being forced to eat cave rats
11) For a book called Batman and Robin, there is very little Robin
12) The horrible pacing
13) The extremely repetitive dialogue!

Maybe it doesn't bug me as much because

1) I don't really care about release schedules. I just like it when comics come out.
2) The worst of that scene, for me, is that she's in bra, panties, and heels. Lots of people are in their underwear in their own apartment, but very very rarely are we in our underwear, alone, with uncomfortable shoes on. (Her apartment design is great, though.)
3) Batman is kind of a dick, and this is him at his most dick.
4) There isn't nearly as much as some people like to make out. Vicky's butt gets highlighted. She's also a great reporter, fighting for justice, and protecting a twelve year old kid from crooked cops who are going to brutalize him. There's no hint of anyone hating women in the writing or drawing of any of the women, even when there is sexism involved.
5) One of my top Joker portrayals. Joker literally makes my stomach cramp up and my body feel cold and hollow reading him here.
6) She's angry and playing Robin Hood. What possible origin is better for a Black Canary?
7) A twenty-something Batman and Canary make out on the docks after an incredibly exciting superhero adventure. And, both regret it an hour later.
8) I must've missed this. The milk carton with Grayson's face on it did get out pretty quick though.
9) Batman hinting that he would have taken Dick Grayson eventually, even if the murders didn't happen
10) Nobody actually made Dick Grayson eat a rat. It didn't happen.
11) Robin's in every issue and the arc is largely his origin story and how he effects Batman.
12) The innovative pacing.
13) Robin is twelve. He is twelve. He's a genius at twelve. Robin a genius. Who is twelve. Thunder. Lightning. Grit teeth. Goddamn.

The worst thing, to me, are that Catwoman gets a crappy showing so far - made worse by how great she comes off in the recent Whatever Happened to Todd story set in the same continuity. If Catwoman didn't launch into something suitably badass in the latter half of the series, I would've had fits. But, we may never know.

Miller's continued willingness to presume a sort of gonads-first male gaze on everything is tedious. But, the Vale thing was neither the first nor last butt shot in a Batman comic. And, I liked her over all. I liked the woman Batman inspired when rescuing her from a mugging. Batgirl was fantastic.

I was so afraid of Frank Miller's Batgirl. I should've remembered he's got a good track record for badass teenage girls.

Wonder Woman... misandrist Wonder Woman I'm fine with, considering she's hanging out with Hal Jordan and Plastic Man who is asking her to pee on him. (And, let's face it, Miller didn't invent Plas the perv. That's been a thing. He disguised himself as a dress for a superhero to wear unknowingly. That being played as a big joke with no consequences is incredibly messed up.) The cover which is largely her butt... that was dumb. The hell was that?

[Bosch]

Wonder Woman... misandrist Wonder Woman I'm fine with, considering she's hanging out with Hal Jordan and Plastic Man who is asking her to pee on him.

She's not even a misandrist, she's just internalized misogyny to the point that even all men are too effeminate for her. ("Where is that hero who threw me to the ground and took me as his rightful prize?") Blarf. I don't mind Miller's characterizations when they make internal sense. His WW is a total head scratcher, though.

[kevink31593]

I don't "hate" ASBAR. It's not my favorite Bat book by any means, but its an interesting "alternate take".

The release schedule on All Star Batman & Robin was bad. People who weren't reading it back when it came out might not realize how long the gaps between issues where. These are the cover dates of all 10 issues:

1 - Sept 2005
2 - Nov 2005 (2 month wait)
3 - Dec 2005 (1 month wait)
4 - Mar 2006 (3 month wait)
5 - July 2007 (1 year plus 4 month wait)
6 - Sep 2007 (2 month wait)
7 - Nov 2007 (2 month wait)
8 - Jan 2008 (2 month wait)
9 - Apr 2008 (3 month wait)
10 - Aug 2008 (4 month wait)

10 issues over the course of 36 months, so that averages to an issue roughly every 3.6 months. The worst gap was between issues 4 & 5, over a year long wait there. The release schedule along with the pacing bothered me. I haven't re-read the issues in a while, but weren't Batman and Dick in the Batmobile from the end of #1 until issue #4, when they finally reached the Batcave?

I think there might have been solicits for issues 11 and 12, but those issues were obviously cancelled.

In 2010, DC announced that in 2011 they would publish 6 issues, re-named "Dark Knight, Boy Wonder" to conclude the series, but that obviously has never happened also.

If DC ever does publish the rest of this series, I'll get it out of curiosity to see how it ends, but I'm not in eager anticipation. I've kind of moved on from this book.

[GigiFusc]

Just wanted to add that I read Last Crusade last night for the first time and thought it was... Ok. Didn't enjoy it half as much as ASBAR.

I think as someone said before, you need to read it with a sense of humour, knowing that Miller is trying to offend people and be as anti politically correct as he can be.

[t hedge coke]

She's not even a misandrist, she's just internalized misogyny to the point that even all men are too effeminate for her. ("Where is that hero who threw me to the ground and took me as his rightful prize?") Blarf. I don't mind Miller's characterizations when they make internal sense. His WW is a total head scratcher, though.

I'm not a huge fan - except for pretty much all of her fights in DKSA, because the fights were good - but again, that's not misogyny. Miller does have issues with effeminate men come up in a lot of his works, but not because they're "like women." His women, generally, aren't "effeminate" either.

[Bosch]

I'm not a huge fan - except for pretty much all of her fights in DKSA, because the fights were good - but again, that's not misogyny. Miller does have issues with effeminate men come up in a lot of his works, but not because they're "like women." His women, generally, aren't "effeminate" either.

I think it's hard to deny that "took me as his rightful prize" is inherently misogynistic. And due to how enthusiastically she wants to be objectified by a worthy Superman, you could easily infer that her misandry comes from a hatred of what she perceives to be weakness rather than sexist men or men in general. Anyway, she's an inconsistent mess whose character motivations make a lot less sense than Miller's Superman or Batman. I agree that her fight scenes are pretty great, and I actually love a few aspects of her much-maligned character design.

[Earth-2 Refugee]

Maybe it doesn't bug me as much because

1) I don't really care about release schedules. I just like it when comics come out.
2) The worst of that scene, for me, is that she's in bra, panties, and heels. Lots of people are in their underwear in their own apartment, but very very rarely are we in our underwear, alone, with uncomfortable shoes on. (Her apartment design is great, though.)
3) Batman is kind of a dick, and this is him at his most dick.
4) There isn't nearly as much as some people like to make out. Vicky's butt gets highlighted. She's also a great reporter, fighting for justice, and protecting a twelve year old kid from crooked cops who are going to brutalize him. There's no hint of anyone hating women in the writing or drawing of any of the women, even when there is sexism involved.
5) One of my top Joker portrayals. Joker literally makes my stomach cramp up and my body feel cold and hollow reading him here.
6) She's angry and playing Robin Hood. What possible origin is better for a Black Canary?
7) A twenty-something Batman and Canary make out on the docks after an incredibly exciting superhero adventure. And, both regret it an hour later.
8) I must've missed this. The milk carton with Grayson's face on it did get out pretty quick though.
9) Batman hinting that he would have taken Dick Grayson eventually, even if the murders didn't happen
10) Nobody actually made Dick Grayson eat a rat. It didn't happen.
11) Robin's in every issue and the arc is largely his origin story and how he effects Batman.
12) The innovative pacing.
13) Robin is twelve. He is twelve. He's a genius at twelve. Robin a genius. Who is twelve. Thunder. Lightning. Grit teeth. Goddamn.

The worst thing, to me, are that Catwoman gets a crappy showing so far - made worse by how great she comes off in the recent Whatever Happened to Todd story set in the same continuity. If Catwoman didn't launch into something suitably badass in the latter half of the series, I would've had fits. But, we may never know.

Miller's continued willingness to presume a sort of gonads-first male gaze on everything is tedious. But, the Vale thing was neither the first nor last butt shot in a Batman comic. And, I liked her over all. I liked the woman Batman inspired when rescuing her from a mugging. Batgirl was fantastic.

I was so afraid of Frank Miller's Batgirl. I should've remembered he's got a good track record for badass teenage girls.

Wonder Woman... misandrist Wonder Woman I'm fine with, considering she's hanging out with Hal Jordan and Plastic Man who is asking her to pee on him. (And, let's face it, Miller didn't invent Plas the perv. That's been a thing. He disguised himself as a dress for a superhero to wear unknowingly. That being played as a big joke with no consequences is incredibly messed up.) The cover which is largely her butt... that was dumb. The hell was that?

I'm only going to mention the one's I wish to rebut since I know certain points will only go in circles.

2) My problem isn't mainly with her being scantily clad, but with the script saying Miller is only writing her like that to titillate the men reading.
3) Batman can be sincere, Miller just refuses to write him like that for some reason.
4) Vicki is objectified by everyone she encounters. Bruce pays no attention to her, and Jimmy is in love with her, constantly trying to hook up with her. Black Canary is objectified by the men at the bar, and only contributes to the story by sleeping with Batman after they beat up some thugs. Wonder Woman only gets mad, then makes out with Superman.
5) I wasn't scared of this Joker at all. He bored me.
6) Her actual backstory?
7) They don't just make out, they have sex. It also contributes nothing to the story.
8) If you try to organize the time stamps, the sequence of events gets extremely confusing.
10) It is implied though that Batman wants him to be eating rats rather than a proper meal, and gets furious when Alfred attempts to feed Robin a proper meal.
11) How many issues is he in it as Robin?
12) Innovative doesn't mean good.

As for the arguments that this a parody of Batman, or something like that, I say this is a cliche parody then since everyone does "Batman is too serious and always a supreme jerk" as a parody, plus the idea of the All Star books was to reinvent characters, not turn them into extremes and parodies of what they are in mainstream books.

[suemorphplus209]

It's one of those stupid Batman stories that is so off the canon that I honestly laugh at it hard

[Darkspellmaster]

One other thing that annoyed, made people hate it, is that lines -verbatim -were used from this series in the Spirit movie. When the leads talk about being together, the girl quotes to the Spirit that she want's him to leave the mask on it's better that way. Cut to ASBAR and we get the same line said by Batman about his sex with Canary that it's better with the masks on. It's the exact same line. Other lines were lifted as well, and dropped into the script. Parts of the Joker's speech were given to Sam Jackson's character, there's other things there too. Mostly everyone's lined out reasons why it was hated, the whole thing felt like an ugly mess and, from what I understand, Jim Lee doesn't really like talking much about it.

[Earth-2 Refugee]

One other thing that annoyed, made people hate it, is that lines -verbatim -were used from this series in the Spirit movie. When the leads talk about being together, the girl quotes to the Spirit that she want's him to leave the mask on it's better that way. Cut to ASBAR and we get the same line said by Batman about his sex with Canary that it's better with the masks on. It's the exact same line. Other lines were lifted as well, and dropped into the script. Parts of the Joker's speech were given to Sam Jackson's character, there's other things there too. Mostly everyone's lined out reasons why it was hated, the whole thing felt like an ugly mess and, from what I understand, Jim Lee doesn't really like talking much about it.

That might explain why Jim Lee was hesitant to publish All Star Batman for Rebirth.