How do you feel about Duke Thomas?

[millernumber1]

I would also rather Bat books dont spend years trying to build up utterly useless characters like Duke or Harper, atleast Jon took off the moment they put him on print and they needed a new gimmick to rescue them from the New 52 slump. Why do Duke and Harper exist again? also between Snyder's Batman, Batman Eternal, We are Robin, Batman and Robin Eternal, All Star Batman and now Metal they've done everything to push this failure called Duke(and his predecessor)

Love Jon or hate him, he's not a waste of space, they know how to write him and promote him cant say any of these about Duke.

I must defend my beloved Batman Eternal. It was not shilling for Duke. (It was shilling for Harper. ).

[JasonTodd428]

No I meant what made him change his mind to include Damian at all when he already gave an excuse and say he wasn't going to be in it? That's what i'm curious about. I don't expect Synder to write an arc with him since Synder isn't writing the Batbooks anyway.

I don't think he has a problem with writing Damian because he did make appearance initially in his Batman run and he was a part of the Death of the Family crossover. I think his problem was with Damian's AGE at the time, which was ten just like his own son's. Now that DC has aged him up to 13 with Rebirth I suppose he has less of a problem with him being involved in this then he might have had if he still thought he was ten. I've no real idea if there is any validity to my theory and I'm not interested in a debate over whether it is valid or not but it is a possible explanation for his seeming turn around on the issue. Editorial might also be making him include Damian in this event for reasons of their own. That's not to say of course that he will have a substantial role at all but I do think that it is very telling the Snyder is going to use Damian in any capacity at all when he's been so against using him before now.

[RedBird]

I must defend my beloved Batman Eternal. It was not shilling for Duke. (It was shilling for Harper. ).

Honestly I had thought Batman Eternal did a pretty good job building Harper up as a new 'bat' character. She was in the background most the time, but she still had moments that displayed her personality, interests and allowed her to develop relationships, especially with Tim. Even her design seemed nice and seeing bits and pieces of her within the series actually made me much more curious about her, and even excited along with Stephanies reintroduction into DC, I was intrigued to see more 'batgals' in batfam.

Then Batman and Robin Eternal happened, and I have not had a series absolutely kill my interest and goodwill towards a character as quickly as that did, since.

[millernumber1]

Honestly I had thought Batman Eternal did a pretty good job building Harper up as a new 'bat' character. She was in the background most the time, but she still had moments that displayed her personality, interests and allowed her to develop relationships, especially with Tim. Even her design seemed nice and seeing bits and pieces of her within the series actually made me much more curious about her, and even excited along with Stephanies reintroduction into DC, I was intrigued to see more 'batgals' in batfam.

Then Batman and Robin Eternal happened, and I have not had a series absolutely kill my interest and goodwill towards a character as quickly as that did, since.

I tend to agree. I like Batman and Robin Eternal more than most, but the handling of Harper was very weak there.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I would rather have a book where Superman is the leading character of his own book again.

He is. Jon is a supporting character. So, yes, Jon will feature heavily in the stories, but the stories still tend to be from Clark's perspective

[Assam]

So I know this isn't conclusive of anything, but for this thread, I think it's relevant to mention that, from what I can tell, in the past week, a week following Duke's biggest appearance yet and where the 90's Batkids didn't even appear, there was still more mentions, discussion and art of Tim, Cass and Steph across social media and forums than Duke. Or, I should say, more positive discussion and mentions. For every person who seems excited about Duke (More power to them, though I do take issue with the person who said that Duke (And Kate) are the most well developed members of the BatFam), there's far more people complaining about him and his getting a solo.(Also, wasn't sure how to word this, but forums aside, there was still more mention of the 90's Bats than Duke altogether.)

[skyvolt2000]

So I know this isn't conclusive of anything, but for this thread, I think it's relevant to mention that, from what I can tell, in the past week, a week following Duke's biggest appearance yet and where the 90's Batkids didn't even appear, there was still more mentions, discussion and art of Tim, Cass and Steph across social media and forums than Duke. Or, I should say, more positive discussion and mentions. For every person who seems excited about Duke (More power to them, though I do take issue with the person who said that Duke (And Kate) are the most well developed members of the BatFam), there's far more people complaining about him and his getting a solo.(Also, wasn't sure how to word this, but forums aside, there was still more mention of the 90's Bats than Duke altogether.)

Look at how the 90s Batkids were introduced versus Duke.

None of them made cameos in Batman books when they first started. Except for Ms Brown-however once we appeared in Robin-she stayed around.

How many times have you seen Duke outside of the Batman books? For Many and I do mean many that Dark Forge issue was probably the first time many saw him. Most folks never saw We Are Robin and remember if you add up Duke's appearances in Rebirth it's 108 out 2000 pages. You don't have enough stuff with him beyond cameos.

Unlike the rest who have ton of stuff.

And yes you would get discussion of them along with Static, Conner, Conner Hawk, Bart and every other character DC has screwed over-because the replacements including Cyborg suffer from what Tim and friends got in the past. DEVELOPMENT.

You can't sell a Duke with only 108 pages of Rebirth Appearances. You got too many upset fans who supported guys like Tim who are getting told to get lost. Led by folks with a Silver age addiction. Who keep getting free passes because of Marvel haters with blinders on or a focus on a select few.

You can't sell Duke when you toss out a We Are Robin version of him in toy form. And we see him as a Power Ranger from an unadapted version that should have aired after Power Rangers SuperMega Force and before Dino Charge in comics.

DC has forgotten execution and development.


As for Little Jon in Superman-the Superman office hasn't buried anyone in that family unless you count poor Conner. Superwoman nor New Superman replaced anyone. So you don't see the war on him like you see within the Bat family. Where SOMEONE has issues with a guy be it Dick, Tim, Cass, Steph, Duke, Harper or Damian.

[Atlanta96]

So I know this isn't conclusive of anything, but for this thread, I think it's relevant to mention that, from what I can tell, in the past week, a week following Duke's biggest appearance yet and where the 90's Batkids didn't even appear, there was still more mentions, discussion and art of Tim, Cass and Steph across social media and forums than Duke. Or, I should say, more positive discussion and mentions. For every person who seems excited about Duke (More power to them, though I do take issue with the person who said that Duke (And Kate) are the most well developed members of the BatFam), there's far more people complaining about him and his getting a solo.(Also, wasn't sure how to word this, but forums aside, there was still more mention of the 90's Bats than Duke altogether.)

I've noticed this myself. On a day when an issue of All Star Batman featuring Duke came out, and Tim had been in limbo for a while, Tim's name still showed up more on Twitter and Tumblr than Duke. Search for posts mentioning Bat-Family members on Tumblr, and everyone generates more results than the Snyder creations. That's on Tumblr, the mega progressive platform who worships new and diverse characters like idols. And they still prefer everyone else to Duke. Same goes for Deviantart and the fanfiction sites.

This is why I must laugh at the idea that Duke is catching on with readers, and that there's no evidence that the majority of fans are against or apathetic towards him. If this character is actually growing a fanbase, where are they?

[rev516]

I remember Snyder saying that there have been SO MANY CALLS for Duke to get his own book.

Makes me laff mate

[Atlanta96]

Look at how the 90s Batkids were introduced versus Duke.

None of them made cameos in Batman books when they first started. Except for Ms Brown-however once we appeared in Robin-she stayed around.

How many times have you seen Duke outside of the Batman books? For Many and I do mean many that Dark Forge issue was probably the first time many saw him. Most folks never saw We Are Robin and remember if you add up Duke's appearances in Rebirth it's 108 out 2000 pages. You don't have enough stuff with him beyond cameos.

Unlike the rest who have ton of stuff.

And yes you would get discussion of them along with Static, Conner, Conner Hawk, Bart and every other character DC has screwed over-because the replacements including Cyborg suffer from what Tim and friends got in the past. DEVELOPMENT.

You can't sell a Duke with only 108 pages of Rebirth Appearances. You got too many upset fans who supported guys like Tim who are getting told to get lost. Led by folks with a Silver age addiction. Who keep getting free passes because of Marvel haters with blinders on or a focus on a select few.

You can't sell Duke when you toss out a We Are Robin version of him in toy form. And we see him as a Power Ranger from an unadapted version that should have aired after Power Rangers SuperMega Force and before Dino Charge in comics.

DC has forgotten execution and development.


As for Little Jon in Superman-the Superman office hasn't buried anyone in that family unless you count poor Conner. Superwoman nor New Superman replaced anyone. So you don't see the war on him like you see within the Bat family. Where SOMEONE has issues with a guy be it Dick, Tim, Cass, Steph, Duke, Harper or Damian.

If DC's writers knew what to do with this character beyond cameos, then he wouldn't be stuck with them. This character just doesn't have enough material for writers to work with. DC cares about pushing Duke fine, but what we've seen is literally the most they can do with him on account of how boring and pointless he is. Those writers have better things to work with than Duke Thomas, don't blame them for ignoring this nothing of a character.

[Assam]

DC has forgotten execution and development.

We've been over this point before, but it's still true. I'd say Kate was the first member to not be introduced as expertly as everyone who came before, but even then, her post-52 appearances gave us a consistant idea of she was, and once Elegy came out, she was golden. And I've got to say, while we don't know who the writer for The Signal will be yet, I somehow see it being far more in line with Calvin's forgotten solo book than Elegy.

Like with so much, introductions started failing with the Nu52, but even then, both David Zavimbe and Basil were added well. In this single case, the problem isn't DC; it's Snyder. Although DC itself is the reason we got Harper at all.

As for Little Jon in Superman-the Superman office hasn't buried anyone in that family unless you count poor Conner. Superwoman nor New Superman replaced anyone. So you don't see the war on him like you see within the Bat family. Where SOMEONE has issues with a guy be it Dick, Tim, Cass, Steph, Duke, Harper or Damian.

Man, even someone like you who knows about all the buried characters forgets that Linda/Matrix were buried. And before anyone says that there's no chance for them, freaking WILL PAYTON is back. I think anything goes at this point.

[DragonPiece]

I would also rather Bat books dont spend years trying to build up utterly useless characters like Duke or Harper, atleast Jon took off the moment they put him on print and they needed a new gimmick to rescue them from the New 52 slump. Why do Duke and Harper exist again? also between Snyder's Batman, Batman Eternal, We are Robin, Batman and Robin Eternal, All Star Batman and now Metal they've done everything to push this failure called Duke(and his predecessor)

Love Jon or hate him, he's not a waste of space, they know how to write him and promote him cant say any of these about Duke.

Even with Duke and Harper, Snyder and King's respective Batman runs never focused on either character. The runs still focused on Batman himself and tackling deep emotional stories surrounding him. Saying this, make no mistake, I'm a huge fan of Tomasi's current Superman run as well as Jurgens Action run(as evident by the amout of times I post in the superman forum). I'm just making a point to say I miss the book focusing on Superman, I get things have changed with having a son, but I'd like the books to focus a bit more on big blue.

[darkseidpwns]

Even with Duke and Harper, Snyder and King's respective Batman runs never focused on either character. The runs still focused on Batman himself and tackling deep emotional stories surrounding him. Saying this, make no mistake, I'm a huge fan of Tomasi's current Superman run as well as Jurgens Action run(as evident by the amout of times I post in the superman forum). I'm just making a point to say I miss the book focusing on Superman, I get things have changed with having a son, but I'd like the books to focus a bit more on big blue.

And none of it matters if they can write and promote the character. BRE sure as heck did exactly what you're accusing DC of doing with Jon. Superman Reborn was still about Superman's life and history,Jon merely being a product of that history. BRE tried to shill Harper in Robin's 75th anniversary in which the actual Robin showed up for a little near the end, lol.
With Jon there is a clear cut idea of what to do. Jurgens uses him as a supporting character while Tomasi focuses on the relationship between him and Supes. So there's a difference in how he is utilized across the 2 books. Same cannot be said for Harper and Duke, they're forced non entities no matter where they go.

[Alycat]

Even as someone who loves poc in the Batfam ( Pls bring back Tam and push Helena more DC), I just dont care about Duke. Or Harper, but this is a Duke thread. There is nothing to care about. They barely have fixed characters I already like and then the poor way they have tried to push him and Harper has made me like them less. Snyder has made several textbook mistakes of introducing new characters.

[Assam]

Even as someone who loves poc in the Batfam ( Pls bring back Tam and push Helena more DC), I just dont care about Duke. Or Harper, but this is a Duke thread. There is nothing to care about. They barely have fixed characters I already like and then the poor way they have tried to push him and Harper has made me like them less. Snyder has made several textbook mistakes of introducing new characters.

The already stark lack of diversity in the BatFam really isn't helped by things like Dick's Romani heritage rarely ever being brought up, and different artists, even after all these years, continuing to constantly go back and forth on Damian and Cass's skin tones, sometimes giving them different degrees of dark skin and sometimes making them able to pass for Caucasian.

Despite what the Marvel fans who want the classic Avengers to come in and slaughter the legacy characters say (Seriously, this is a decent sized bunch and it's disgusting), diversity IS important, and the reason for that is something a GREAT BatFamily member once summed up very simply.

represent my people.jpg

And really, this just makes Duke's push all the worse as it's a shame that this couldn't be going to a minority of worth. Despite my usually being on the anti-Duke side of these arguments, I honestly still don't hate the guy, and there are a few moments where I've liked him. But with how horribly he's been handled and how dull he generally is, I'm left wishing ANY of the other POC who are in (Or have been) in the BatFam were getting this push instead.