Superman panel at NY Comic-Con

[JAK]

I think something that's been mentioned but not fully considered is that while one writer is getting to do character exploration, the other is "saddled" with having to move a narrative forward (as Dispenser of Truth said, Action Comics is most tied into the larger Rebirth story and has to get certain things in place by a certain point and time. There's the new Clark story, and who knows how much else he has to get to/through to get to a point where he can "just play" like what's going so well in the "Superman" book. Tomasi's got a lot more freedom to go with things in his book.

Hopefully DC at least gives Jurgens one arc (which, btw, is basically all we've had from him so far) where he's not tied to a "continuity mission", to see how that would go. Given the reception for "Superman: Lois & Clark" miniseries, I'd wager it'd go decently well.

As for Action #1,000: I would think they'd do what was done in the past; have it be a huge book filled with different artists and writers from over the years (like "The Wedding Album", etc). That would be great, imo.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

As for Action #1,000: I would think they'd do what was done in the past; have it be a huge book filled with different artists and writers from over the years (like "The Wedding Album", etc). That would be great, imo.

Oh, I think that's a given (lots of major talent would want a slice of that pie), and I'd even be 100% okay with Jurgens writing one of those stories: I may not like him at all, but his position in the history of the character merits it. But there'll inevitably be a 'main' story finishing off some arc that'll also tie into the Watchmen stuff hitting its climax right around then, and I think the Big Story of Action Comics #1000 deserves a major creator, or at least a fan-favorite fresh name.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I think Action Comics #1000 is going to be the issue that either ends the Rebirth initiative or the first issue of the solidified Post-Rebirth DC Universe.

It's going to end with Lois handing Superman his red trunks. I just know it.

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah, it's the worst selling out of the Super-Family books as of August 2016 (granted by only a few hundred copies, but to the second issue of an ancillary Superman Family title with no preexisting history or media exposure or ties to the larger universe). It doesn't crack the top 30 - issue #962 not the top 40 - and while it's nowhere near 'we have a problem' numbers, it's still selling worse than every other Superman-related book in spite of being the flagship that's driving the plot for all of them, and it suffered a bigger issue-to-issue drop that month than Superman. Given it's a prominent relaunch for the title and it's the most plot-significant of the bunch (i.e. it has Superman re-revealing himself to the world, reintegrating himself into the world, fighting Lex, and learning more about Mr. Oz making it the one book I know of prominently and consistently tied into the larger DC Rebirth plotline), it's fair to say it should probably be doing better. If they got that selling as well as Action Comics by all rights should, pretty much every Superman book would be a winner for what it is at this point.

By all rights? It's clearly not the flagship, Superman is the flagship. Which is why it launched first and bigger. You use language to make it seem as though its position is bad (Nick Spencer recently made a good point on Twitter plainly illustrating that comichron position is worthless), but it simply isn't. We're still only in the third month of a relaunch, so numbers aren't close to a consistent level across the board. For example, Harley Quinn was the best selling book of the month, and there's a very small likelihood that numbers settle around half of what was ordered for August, which would be almost 180k. For further titles, if the numbers and positions on comichron (which doesn't account for digital) are roughly accurate, let's do some comparing:

Batman Rebirth: 199807
Batman #1: 280360
Batman #5: 142142: 71%

Superman Rebirth: 118434
Superman #1: 105380
Superman #5: 81339: 77%

Detective Comics #934: 96581
Detective Comics #938: 81465: 84%

Action Comics #957: 75349
Action Comics #962: 64328: 85%

They're all close enough to indicate a general success, but this is the highest apparent retention rate. I think you also made a reference to Super-man being higher... but a 70k order for the second issue of a title like that is exceptional.

The alternative is keeping Jurgens now that the "my crappy character was in a critically lambasted movie the company is publicly pivoting away from!" luster has faded, and look, chalk it up to the double shipping-schedule or it being past his time (or if you're me him always having been third-rate), but his current stuff is basically unsuitable for publication. Utterly tone-deaf dialogue, meandering plots, cliche beats...this barely would have passed muster in the 90s, much less 2016 for anyone who wasn't associated as a 'name' in regards to the character. The very concept of him writing the first Big Two #1000 issue for the biggest superheroes' 80th anniversary in what might be the year of his next movie the way he's clearly hinted at is beyond inexcusable. That's an industry event, and he's...not a guy who's going to be able to give any weight to that.

Hilariously scathing. He... will go on being one of the most significant writers to touch the character, who penned the very best selling Superman comic. This sounds like an extreme and uncommon bias against him.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

By all rights? It's clearly not the flagship, Superman is the flagship.

It's really not. Superman's certainly my preferred book of the two, and it's been the flagship in even the recent past, so I'd have been good with that. But aside from Jon putting on the cape, all plot and character-significant events that are going to be shaping the Superman line going forward are in Action, hence it having the famous industry name on it. It's where Superman comes back, it's where the new Clark is set up and will soon be explained, it's where he's fighting Lex Luthor and where we're seeing Metropolis and the Daily Planet and Jimmy Olsen and all the other classic Superman stuff, and it's where the most prominent Rebirth-centric stuff in the entire line is going on with Mr. Oz (unless they're doing stuff with Wally in Titans or something). Of the Superman books, it's the one setting the direction the rest are following.

He... will go on being one of the most significant writers to touch the character, who penned the very best selling Superman comic.

I'd never contest his significance. I might question how much that particular issue meaningfully counts in his favor beyond being in the right place at the right time - very literally anyone in the industry could have written Superman #75 and it would have remained a titanic sales event - but he was a driving voice on the character for years. He's a Major Superman Writer, and rightfully so.

You have to admit that you're a biased minority here.

Minority, probably, but I don't know that 'biased' is quite the right word. He didn't run over my puppy or act rude to me at a convention or develop any specific storytelling quirks that rub me the wrong way or screw up a major story I desperately would have wanted to see done right. I've found a lot of his statements on and approach to Superman antithetical with most of what I like about the character, but that hasn't stopped him from even writing some comics I really liked, like Wedding Album and the birth of Lena Luthor. The only thing that made me start disliking his stuff was that I read some of his new work and went "oh, these seem to be bad comics that are written badly", and the only thing that made me particularly bitter about that was that he was then put in a position of importance at the same time Batman was getting Tom King and Wonder Woman Greg Rucka. I have no doubt from everything I've heard that he's a perfectly pleasant guy. I just wish he was writing Ultiman or selling insurance or something instead of being given one of the ten or so most prominent ongoing positions as a writer in Big Two comics on the name value of a 20-year-old book.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I think something that's been mentioned but not fully considered is that while one writer is getting to do character exploration, the other is "saddled" with having to move a narrative forward (as Dispenser of Truth said, Action Comics is most tied into the larger Rebirth story and has to get certain things in place by a certain point and time. There's the new Clark story, and who knows how much else he has to get to/through to get to a point where he can "just play" like what's going so well in the "Superman" book. Tomasi's got a lot more freedom to go with things in his book.

Hopefully DC at least gives Jurgens one arc (which, btw, is basically all we've had from him so far) where he's not tied to a "continuity mission", to see how that would go. Given the reception for "Superman: Lois & Clark" miniseries, I'd wager it'd go decently well.

As for Action #1,000: I would think they'd do what was done in the past; have it be a huge book filled with different artists and writers from over the years (like "The Wedding Album", etc). That would be great, imo.

Now that it's been mentioned, I agree that Jurgens is at a disadvantage due to what he has to deal with in Action Comics, which is on a bimonthly schedule. He's also got Batman Beyond, so he's constantly working.

I've said that Yang's Superman suffered because he had to setup Truth, while Pak got to deal with aftermath, and the same must be true for Jurgens now.

But, I've never considered him to be good writer. Lois & Clark is one of the worst Superman stories I've read in at least a decade, even worse than Lobdell's run. So even if he wasn't saddled with moving the Rebirth storyline forward, I think at best, his Action Comics would be less terrible than it is now.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Lois & Clark is one of the worst Superman stories I've read in at least a decade, even worse than Lobdell's run.

Just for the sake of lending context to my other posts, I wouldn't say I'd go this far. With the exception of the last L&C issue, there's at least a basic, workmanlike structural competency to Jurgens' work we didn't get out of Lobdell.

Anyway, shifting back on-topic: also hope there's some kind of miniseries announcement of note at NYCC. Landis might still do his American Alien follow-up, Coming of the Superman clearly left the door open to a hopefully equally batshit sequel, and Mark Millar's said he'll be doing a Superman mini within the next few years (though I'd bank on that for 2018 rather than within the next year). Though I guess it's possible Supergirl: Being Super is filling that niche.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Just for the sake of lending context to my other posts, I wouldn't say I'd go this far. With the exception of the last L&C issue, there's at least a basic, workmanlike structural competency to Jurgens' work we didn't get out of Lobdell.

Maybe it's because I read Lois & Clark more recently, so my dislike for it is still fresh compared to Lobdell's Superman.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

So Action Comics #1000...

What if Mark Waid is a writer on it, and then takes over with issue #1001.

He and Johns have been talking, and he wasn't a fan of the New 52.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

So Action Comics #1000...

What if Mark Waid is a writer on it, and then takes over with issue #1001.

He and Johns have been talking, and he wasn't a fan of the New 52.

I'd be somewhat skeptical. I know he regards ending the Superman/Clark/Lois triangle as a fundamental mistake, so I don't know how onboard he'd be with taking over the marriage with a kid in the mix too. Though it's also clear he's as painfully desperate to write him as ever with how he's still pumping out Superman analogue books, so maybe he'd deal with it. I could definitely see him on a prestige mini of some sort.

[Kuwagaton]

But aside from Jon putting on the cape, all plot and character-significant events that are going to be shaping the Superman line going forward are in Action, hence it having the famous industry name on it.

It's his plot, that's why. He's been working on this storyline of who this Superman is since Convergence, so he'd have priority to continue it no matter which title. We know that he likes the Action title, but aside from that anniversary significance it doesn't mean too much. Which is why we got Action Weekly and the Lex story back when JMS started Grounded. Likewise, Tec hasn't been the main book in years.

Of the Superman books, it's the one setting the direction the rest are following.

The line spins directly from Final Days, which Tomasi wrote. It launched with the Rebirth special, which Tomasi wrote.

very literally anyone in the industry could have written Superman #75 and it would have remained a titanic sales event

The beauty of this knock is that it's technically true (my cousin Dwayne could have written or drawn this comic, why or how well notwithstanding) and it never gets to be proven false, since we'll never know. I'd just say as a counter, anyone could have written or drawn anything and yet that change would automatically make it not what we know it to be. Anyone could have written or drawn X-Men #1 in 1991, whatever comic has Bane breaking the bat, etc.That has no bearing or negative implication on the particular success actually found, and by no means can it really argue that someone was merely in the right place at the right time.

As I said earlier in the thread, I've been going through some of his 1990-91 stuff recently. It's clear why he was on Death, which is the lesser than what came before it imo. Maybe as good or better than the years he still grinded out after. Those other six or so years help make the case for letting him do it again, rather than the one wave of the big comic.

So hey: did Millar really confirm that he's got some Superman stuff? I'm not sure they'd mention it here, but it would be just about the biggest superman news item.

[BeefBourguignon]

I think is ridiculous to imply that Jurgens was assigned Action Comics because Doomsday was in Batman v. Superman or its critical failing has any bearing on his job. Also is thinking that Jurgens' resume is solely built on Superman #75. Sometimes I think in our quest to rationalize our personal dislikes we craft an unrealistic view of how the comic industry works.

[titansupes]

So hey: did Millar really confirm that he's got some Superman stuff? I'm not sure they'd mention it here, but it would be just about the biggest superman news item.

Wait, there's more info on a potential Millar Supes story? Don't you tease me now...

[Dispenser Of Truth]

So hey: did Millar really confirm that he's got some Superman stuff? I'm not sure they'd mention it here, but it would be just about the biggest superman news item.

Yeah. When he brought up that he was doing either a Superman mini or a Marvel event a couple months back as a break from creator owned, he unambigiously stressed that whichever he chose to do first, both would be happening over the next few years, and he laid out plenty of what he'd be doing with Superman:

* A six issue mini with the artist already chosen (who isn't going to be Bryan Hitch, John Cassaday, Jason Fabok, Jim Lee, Matt Southworth, Daniel Bayless, Dan Mora, Leila De Luca, or Carlos Pacheco), this is a further reworking of the ideas from his dropped Superman movie trilogy that were originally going to be part of an OGN.

* Super-powerful, super-smart Superman. Clark and Superman are two distinct people, with Superman as the true personality.

* Fairly little focus on the supporting cast outside of Lois (Daily Planet has a minor role, Ma & Pa are long dead), Lex and Brainiac are the two big villains. Darkseid and the Phantom Zone might be involved too.

I'm thinking a 2018 release for that is a near-given, since that's Superman's year with that as a potential crown jewel, and whichever artist he picks will probably need awhile to work on it.

[titansupes]

Yeah. When he brought up that he was doing either a Superman mini or a Marvel event a couple months back as a break from creator owned, he unambigiously stressed that whichever he chose to do first, both would be happening over the next few years, and he laid out plenty of what he'd be doing with Superman:

* A six issue mini with the artist already chosen (who isn't going to be Bryan Hitch, John Cassaday, Jason Fabok, Jim Lee, Matt Southworth, Daniel Bayless, Dan Mora, Leila De Luca, or Carlos Pacheco), this is a further reworking of the ideas from his dropped Superman movie trilogy that were originally going to be part of an OGN.

* Super-powerful, super-smart Superman. Clark and Superman are two distinct people, with Superman as the true personality.

* Fairly little focus on the supporting cast outside of Lois (Daily Planet has a minor role, Ma & Pa are long dead), Lex and Brainiac are the two big villains. Darkseid and the Phantom Zone might be involved too.

I'm thinking a 2018 release for that is a near-given, since that's Superman's year with that as a potential crown jewel, and whichever artist he picks will probably need awhile to work on it.

Dear lord. Aside from Fabok not being a possibility and the DP cast not being in it much (I just miss 'em), that all sounds like exactly what I've wanted from Millar.