Are The Illuminati A Failure Because Of Incursions And Secret Wars?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Okay, if you want an opinion better that Panther is an overestimation, Wakanda is too small in population to be of any merit to the rest of the world. Hell, Denmark has as much scientific prowess in the world as anybody, but you don't see them in the Illuminati. I think Stark only included Wakanda because he was being polite. There. Is that clear enough. All your talk about Wakandas influence in the world is negated by Wakanda not sharing the cure for cancer. They are not cooperative. They are insular, so that makes them dangerous rather than a benefit. They should have included Dr Doom rather than Wakanda.

Really?

You can't call out Wakanda for being too insular when the Inhumans and Atlantis are part of the discission. Double standards on a masive scale there.

[Coin Biter]

We actually were given this scenario recently in Secret Invasion, when the Skrulls beat the Super Heroes, the Fantastic Four, the Inhumans, fought the mutants to a standstill, fought Dr Strange to distraction I think, but I don't recall them beating Namor, because Skrulls don't generally fight under water.

Didn't Wakanda defeat the Skrulls in Secret Invasion, and kill all of their invading force? That's what I understand, although I haven't read those issues of Black Panther so can't be sure.

[TakoM]

Was that page from X-Men 335?

Sry took a while I don't know the number it is from the Onslaught events in the 90's

What basically pointed out here is that the FF are viewed as gods in a meta sense.

The Onslaught story had even more iconic moment e.g when Onslaught gets X-Man's memories and after this when Xavier confront him

[TakoM]

I think there's an interesting debate forming on who should be in the Illuminati. Personally I feel it should be a group that is true to the tin-foil-hat mythology of power through influence rather than raw power. It's also more interesting in that we have so much of the later already, that there be a group planning and scheming in the background to prevent and influence things to make this world "fit" Their ideals. But does that mean there has to effecitvely be two groups? Does there need to be a heroic vs. villainous version of the Illuminati? Or would it be more interesting if it was some kind of secret United Nations so as not everyone agreed.

My "ideal Illuminati" group would have to be, IMO, the later, and because of that, I don't see how one could omit Doom from the table. Genius and ruler of his own country, for all the talk of Tchalla deserving to have a seat I think Victor has all his benefits plus a bonus attribute: conflicting motivations.

I think the the tin-foil-hats are the problem ^^

You can ask the question about are the Illuminati a failure differently

Could they do what they wanted ? Yes until the incursion showed up
What was the result of their actions ? They were all failures with very little exceptions.(what became out of marvel boy or what was is name ?)
Were their plans smart ? No not really
Were their plans on a moral level okay ? No never.

Had they the authority to do what they did ? No because from a king perspective it included always people which aren't under their rule and from a cosmic they aren't gods.

My idea of an extreme powerhouse group was influenced by what in Universe-X was said about Rick Jones basically in a far fetched interpretation he created the Avengers to block the possibility of the Illuminati or acting rouge as individuals. (in some way the Earth-X and the current Marvel universe are complete opposites)


In theory there would be also a lot of tension in the group with people like Molecule Man and Legion.

[Triniking1234]

But wasn't the Illuminati designed to fail?

Like, yes, together they have the power to deter any threat but their own agendas always leads to a lack of co-operation and leads to their downfall.

[Michael Watkins]

And, Namor went to Doom first, but Doom snubbed him so....

nope. Doom's given reason for the snub was that Namor didn't come to him first. Namor showed up begging for aid because the Cabal were out of control; taking too much enjoyment in the killing. other reason is that Doom had plans of his own; that didn't include Namor.

[Michael Watkins]

Forming a gang with the Cabal was actually rational given the circumstances.

He needed people willing to detonate the bombs, which pretty much discounted the bulk of the super hero community. But he also needed people capable of overcoming whatever deenders the other earth might have. The Cabal fits both. I'm not entirely sure what better option Namor had in the short time he had.

how about approaching a few powerful non-sadists like Magneto and Doom? how about someone like the Juggernaut? Terrax made a lot of the victims of their slaughter beg for death. thing of it is, I don't personally think that they made the right choice; setting those other worlds up for destruction. what makes Namor's life more important than those from other realities? maybe the Great Society should have been the last people standing.

[MyriVerse]

There's a big difference in the ANAD to the 616. In the 616, nobody thought their world was out of control and spiralling into death. In the ANAD, everybody knew the 616 was a failure and are looking to do it better this time, with Ultimates, Kobik and Ulysses, rather than the same old same old, beat the threat when it turns up. That world is gone now. This world wants threats to be addressed before they arrive. They would never do this in the 616 because the heroes thought they were it and a bit.

Nobody thinks that about ANAD any more than they did in 616, and they did think that about 616 quite often. Nope. No different.

[XPac]

how about approaching a few powerful non-sadists like Magneto and Doom? how about someone like the Juggernaut? Terrax made a lot of the victims of their slaughter beg for death. thing of it is, I don't personally think that they made the right choice; setting those other worlds up for destruction. what makes Namor's life more important than those from other realities? maybe the Great Society should have been the last people standing.

Since the people on the 616 earth ended up resolving the problem in hindsight their lives were more important than everyone else's.

[Mike_Murdock]

Didn't Wakanda defeat the Skrulls in Secret Invasion, and kill all of their invading force? That's what I understand, although I haven't read those issues of Black Panther so can't be sure.

Yep. See Wakanda and Die. It's a great story.

They also were the only ones not fooled by the Skrulls shapeshifting in the story.

[Dabrikishaw]

The Illuminati are a failure because somebody decided that would be a better story and provide better drama than them being a success.

It always comes down to this.

[Michael Watkins]

Since the people on the 616 earth ended up resolving the problem in hindsight their lives were more important than everyone else's.

by that logic, Spider-man's life is more important than that of the person he saves. is that what we're talking about, here? and, in fairness, has the problem been solved? no one was actively trying to take out the heroes of the 616 to save their own lives. the Great Society realized that it was just the wrong thing to do. and they were slaughtered. then a megalomaniac like Doom made himself God; creating a nightmarish realm of conflict. the resolution of that came down to someone giving Molecule Man a sandwich. reality was saved in spite of the 616 heroes. and the other realities haven't been restored because of that same self-interest.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But wasn't the Illuminati designed to fail?

Like, yes, together they have the power to deter any threat but their own agendas always leads to a lack of co-operation and leads to their downfall.

True, but I still place the majority of the blame on poor writing. Bendis and Hickman had no idea how to write intelligent characters.

I think this is best demonstrated when The Hood, of all people, gets Black Bolt's infinity gem and gets within arm's length of the damned Infinity Gauntlet.

How? Because Black Bolt forgot to pack his Infinity gem when the Inhumans moved their country, like it was an old T-shirt

[XPac]

by that logic, Spider-man's life is more important than that of the person he saves. is that what we're talking about, here? and, in fairness, has the problem been solved? no one was actively trying to take out the heroes of the 616 to save their own lives. the Great Society realized that it was just the wrong thing to do. and they were slaughtered. then a megalomaniac like Doom made himself God; creating a nightmarish realm of conflict. the resolution of that came down to someone giving Molecule Man a sandwich. reality was saved in spite of the 616 heroes. and the other realities haven't been restored because of that same self-interest.

For the 616 at least the problem was resolved. Doom stopped the Beyond erstwhile Fri destroying everything and Reed stopped Doom and restored the multiverse (though that's still an on-going process).

No oneed from any other universe in the multiverse was able to stop the Beyonders.

[Michael Watkins]

For the 616 at least the problem was resolved. Doom stopped the Beyond erstwhile Fri destroying everything and Reed stopped Doom and restored the multiverse (though that's still an on-going process).

No oneed from any other universe in the multiverse was able to stop the Beyonders.

that doesn't mean that their lives were worth less. it's like seeing a group of survivors in a zombie outbreak movie slowly compromise themselves/turn on each other. they weren't better than the dead. they were just more afraid of death/determined to keep living.