David Finch Clarifies His "Wonder Woman" "Feminist" Stance

[brettc1]

Because she can't be both?

You absolutely can. But a reality of which perhaps Finch is aware is that tagging a character with any kind of label can become instantly divisive.

It's not just feminism. Gail Simone, during her run on Wonder Woman, mentioned that she pitched an idea to DC for making Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) Catholic. Editorial quashed the idea immediately, on the basis it would alienate readership. Clearly the feeling was no matter how well Gail wrote, the potential for a positive actively Christian character was outweighed by the potential reader backlash as the register.

[Mr. Mastermind]

You absolutely can. But a reality of which perhaps Finch is aware is that tagging a character with any kind of label can become instantly divisive.

It's not just feminism. Gail Simone, during her run on Wonder Woman, mentioned that she pitched an idea to DC for making Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) Catholic. Editorial quashed the idea immediately, on the basis it would alienate readership. Clearly the feeling was no matter how well Gail wrote, the potential for a positive actively Christian character was outweighed by the potential reader backlash as the register.

Wonder Woman being a feminist means she's for gender equality, and that the writers are paying respect to the foundation of the character, which was feminist.

Cass Cain being a Catholic means that she would follow a Church that is against abortion, the LGBT community and entrusting women with power, and it would also be against the character's foundation.

Obviously there are Catholics who ignore the teachings of the Catholic Church, but the association with those political positions would unnecessarily make the character more political than she would actually need to be.

[Gorthon]

When we think about it all the big three are ideologies. U can't say she should not be about ideology unless u are talking about the story itself okay but Diana symbolize not only to love yourself but to not let others put you down. It doesn't have to be stated and hit you over the head the story itself should tell u her ideologies. She is about empowerment and justice. She about reform and love. She is about loyalty and forgiveness. She about sacrifice for the good of others. She as shown this though her stories. Sure she is a feminist but she doesn't talk about it she helps them by learning about themselves. These are her ideologies. Which as been always with her.

Are you defining those characteristics to be exclusive to feminists? Because if not, then saying that she's "not a feminist" doesn't deny any of those things. If you are then, well "okay, sure. whatever."

Oh David, you act like you're new to the game.

You're a guy, so that's basically strike one right there.

Then you decided to talk about feminism and Wonder Woman at the same time, so that's pretty much strike two.

Then you failed to give anything less than a glowing endorsement of both? Haaaave fuuunn. Lol.

Lol.

[Frog_Girl]

I'm willing to check the series out, because I like what Meredith had to say, but I think part of writing Wonder Woman is embracing feminism (or womanism or another preferred term). People thinking "feminism" is a dirty word is part of the reason Wonder Woman was created in the first place. And, no, I don't believe being an "equalist" or a "humanist" is just as good. Wonder Woman, to me, represents the strength of women and how much we can all accomplish if we stand up and fight the cruelty in the world, especially against women. She is a political character, whether that frightens people or not. She means something.

[brettc1]

Wonder Woman being a feminist means she's for gender equality, and that the writers are paying respect to the foundation of the character, which was feminist.

Cass Cain being a Catholic means that she would follow a Church that is against abortion, the LGBT community and entrusting women with power, and it would also be against the character's foundation.

Obviously there are Catholics who ignore the teachings of the Catholic Church, but the association with those political positions would unnecessarily make the character more political than she would actually need to be.

And yet on the television show BONES David Boreanaz character is a practicing Catholic, and none of these problems arise.

Also, I misquoted Simone. I said Catholic, but she is cited as saying Christian. Though it's worth mentioning that Huntress was Catholic in Birds of Prey.

Just as there are Christians with extreme ideas about religion, there are feminists with extreme ideas about gender relations. The women who identify themselves as feminist writers who hold this position are listed on one of my previous posts. Not all feminist doctrine is about gender equality. There are what could be described as radical philosophies which extol the virtues of the woman over those of the man.

If you say Wonder Woman is a feminist, you automatically associate her with all aspects of that philosophy, and even feminists disagree among themselves about what those should be.

[Frog_Girl]

And yet on the television show BONES David Boreanaz character is a practicing Catholic, and none of these problems arise.

Also, I misquoted Simone. I said Catholic, but she is cited as saying Christian. Though it's worth mentioning that Huntress was Catholic in Birds of Prey.

Just as there are Christians with extreme ideas about religion, there are feminists with extreme ideas about gender relations. The women who identify themselves as feminist writers who hold this position are listed on one of my previous posts. Not all feminist doctrine is about gender equality. There are what could be described as radical philosophies which extol the virtues of the woman over those of the man.

If you say Wonder Woman is a feminist, you automatically associate her with all aspects of that philosophy, and even feminists disagree among themselves about what those should be.

What group completely agrees about everything? That is an incredibly high standard to set.

[sonofspam1972]

WW should NOT be about idealogy. DC needs to put out the most mainstream interpretstion of Wonder Woman that they can. Too many times throughout the years has WW been overshadowed by more 'exciting' female characters such as Witchblade and Fathom. I want Woder Woman to be as popular as possible and not just be a niche character.

And yet on the television show BONES David Boreanaz character is a practicing Catholic, and none of these problems arise.

Also, I misquoted Simone. I said Catholic, but she is cited as saying Christian. Though it's worth mentioning that Huntress was Catholic in Birds of Prey.

Just as there are Christians with extreme ideas about religion, there are feminists with extreme ideas about gender relations. The women who identify themselves as feminist writers who hold this position are listed on one of my previous posts. Not all feminist doctrine is about gender equality. There are what could be described as radical philosophies which extol the virtues of the woman over those of the man.

If you say Wonder Woman is a feminist, you automatically associate her with all aspects of that philosophy, and even feminists disagree among themselves about what those should be.

Comic books are incredibly weird about installing religion into a character that hasn't always had it.


I'm not sure why i mean i'm a liberal atheist and reading religious characters like Daredevil or Nightcrawler doesn't offend me in the least.

Just as long as it's not preachy or pushy which i expect a professional writer not to do then it could be a great story.

[Carabas]

It's not just feminism. Gail Simone, during her run on Wonder Woman, mentioned that she pitched an idea to DC for making Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) Catholic. Editorial quashed the idea immediately, on the basis it would alienate readership. Clearly the feeling was no matter how well Gail wrote, the potential for a positive actively Christian character was outweighed by the potential reader backlash as the register.

This is Casandra Cain we're talking about. Editorial had and has a very clear idea about what they want her to be: non-existant. This is a character that for whatever reason DC bends over backwards to make sure she doesn't exist. Religion had nothing to do with Gail's pitch being turned down. DC was at that time not in the slightest intersted in any Cassandra Cain, especially not as Batgirl, a name they had other plans for.

[AmiMizuno]

Are you defining those characteristics to be exclusive to feminists? Because if not, then saying that she's "not a feminist" doesn't deny any of those things. If you are then, well "okay, sure. whatever."

No I wasn't saying this is just exclusive to feminist. I was saying what all of what Diana's ideologies are. Yea she a feminist but she is much more than that. She wants to empower anyone who needs it not just women but anyone no matter who or what they are. She wants to help people even her villains.

[Silvanus]

It seems like he was basically thinking out loud; it occurred to him that the "feminist" label might be misunderstood, but he didn't quite have time to realize that he could just not use the word instead of saying out loud that he didn't want to use the word. But even though it probably wasn't intentional, he drew some extra attention to the announcement of the run, and he sparked some interesting discussion of Wonder Woman and feminism. That's not bad.

[brettc1]

What group completely agrees about everything? That is an incredibly high standard to set.

Yes, exactly. So if you say "this character is a..." you pretty much have to follow it up with a four page essay outlining exactly what you mean.

[t hedge coke]

I'm actually much happier with Finch and Finch's interviews, so far, than Azz's general interviews and nonfiction/promo stuff. Azzarello's a guy who said Ebony White was better a black girl, so she could be "sassy." He's said incredibly dodgy things about race, culture, and has a tendency to orientalize. Decent writer, but he's put his foot in his mouth enough. And rewrote a Carib ex-slave as a comedy stereotype of his slavers. Even his Wonder Woman run hasn't been without him saying some very awkward things.

I'm willing to check the series out, because I like what Meredith had to say, but I think part of writing Wonder Woman is embracing feminism (or womanism or another preferred term). People thinking "feminism" is a dirty word is part of the reason Wonder Woman was created in the first place. And, no, I don't believe being an "equalist" or a "humanist" is just as good. Wonder Woman, to me, represents the strength of women and how much we can all accomplish if we stand up and fight the cruelty in the world, especially against women. She is a political character, whether that frightens people or not. She means something.

The thing with humanist, instead - and I went through this when I was like seventeen and for five seconds felt weird about self-IDing as a feminist - is that it's usually there to pretend like this is just as much a risk for men, the loss of rights and standing. And, it's not. Have men been deprived of rights or social equality? Yes. Has it ever happened because they were men? Not really, no. The whole MRA thing, the whole humanist or equalist thing is making up a victimization of men because they are men that is not happening in any country on the planet in any systemic fashion.

That some people in this thread are perfectly willing to disregard dictionary definitions, historical definitions, the definitions of anyone in-thread IDing as feminist, the politics of any major feminist figures in the world... to favor the definition they feel is represented by a mean anonymous person on tumblr...

I mean, do you also let a mean person on tumblr define "democratic" or "pretty" for you as well? Do you let a troll on reddit tell you what comics are cool this week? Of course not. So, why let them define for all time and practices feminism unless it's just an easy way to make something scary?

[brettc1]

Many people forget that not only did Marston build Diana on feminist principles, but also Steve Trevor. Rare indeed is the story where he challenges Diana's lead, or her greater ability. If Diana epitomises the hitherto untapped potential of the woman, then Steve is equally valuable in showing how men can have a relationship with women built on mutual respect and without the cringing, insecurity driven angst of a man forced grudgingly to admit a woman is better than him at something.

[Frog_Girl]

Yes, exactly. So if you say "this character is a..." you pretty much have to follow it up with a four page essay outlining exactly what you mean.

Or you could just write the comic and have those things be defined by the character's actions. When writers say in an interview that Batman is a billionaire, do they have to qualify exactly what kind of billionaire he is? No. They just write him that way. The same can be true of feminism, and has been for the entire history of the character.

[t hedge coke]

Many people forget that not only did Marston build Diana on feminist principles, but also Steve Trevor. Rare indeed is the story where he challenges Diana's lead, or her greater ability. If Diana epitomises the hitherto untapped potential of the woman, then Steve is equally valuable in showing how men can have a relationship with women built on mutual respect and without the cringing, insecurity driven angst of a man forced grudgingly to admit a woman is better than him at something.

Very solid.

My hope with this run is that all the ostensibly heroic characters come off strong and genuinely heroic. Basically, as long as the goodies are honest and forthright and all that good stuff, and some kind of villain or monster thing gets smashed up a bit, I'll probably be generally satisfied. I don't want to see Steve/anyone turned into a pessimistic straw man for Diana to be "better" than.

That a comic - or anything - can be written apolitically, is a nice idea, but in practice, artists/authors have to be aware of the world they're working in, and take responsibility of their work. As long as the talent here do book they feel good about being responsible for, and I have something I'm cool with owning and reading publicly, it's all good. (Naturally, if I don't like owning it, but the rest of you do, it's... well, it's probably still good.)