David Finch Clarifies His "Wonder Woman" "Feminist" Stance

[LoneNecromancer]

Lax realises that girl is a teenager, right?

[Lax]

When females are the under-privileged, naturally they are going to require more attention from the movement itself. However, it's false that feminism serves women only. Men benefit from women gaining the respect and equality they've been granted for so long.

It is designed specifically to serve women, even if it did happen to benefit men in some way, it would be as a side effect of it's intended purpose.

The same way Victoria Secret helps cross dressers out just fine but I'm not going to pretend that the company actually had them in mind when they started selling women's underwear.

Think about Wonder Woman herself. Her mission, if I'm not mistaken, is partly to help people appreciate that stereotypically male or macho ways of doing things don't have to be the only way. Young boys are negatively impacted when they grow up thinking that it's shameful to like typically feminine activities or to engage in typically feminine behaviors.

You act like that's changed. Softness in males must be tolerated to avoid mind-blowing hypocrisy, but it is by no means appreciated. I don't blame feminism for this as that was never it's job to being with and I'm fairly convinced both genders actually prefer it this way.

Again, feminism is about equality. If anything is taken away from men via the movement's efforts, it's superior privileges and power that shouldn't be exclusive to them, as equality means everyone gets those same rights and privileges as well as the freedom to behave in ways that don't conform to traditional gender norms out of shame, but rather to behave and be as one is regardless of how those behaviors or preferences are coded. Feminism isn't misandry. Everyone benefits from feminism and equality. All that's lost is inequality and privilege that is detrimental to all and shouldn't exist anyway.

You'd be surprised what is viable so long as you're able to frame the discussion in the interest of serving and or protecting a victim.

It's "evil" only in that those women are only existing as objects to please the male gaze, which would be fine if one is creating porn or another product specifically geared toward men, but comics are not that.

1. The character exist for the sole purpose of pleasing me by default, whether that's sexually or anything else.

2. There is nothing wrong with a product catering toward males.

3. Cheesecake in comic books is nothing like actually pornography. I'd show you the difference but I'm reasonably sure that's against the rules. Which should tell you something.

If a woman who is meant to look like she's in action as a hero, is depicted in a cheesecake fashion, it's wrong because there is no need to pose her in such a sexual way.

So? The two aren't mutually exclusive, she can look juicy and kick ass. No reason to settle for one when I can have both.

The context needs to be of a sexual nature for that type of allure to be considered potentially suitable. If a man is so desperate for eye candy, though, and that is his primary concern while reading comics -- to the extent that it would drive him away if it were reduced/eliminated -- then surely he can find what he's really looking for among the myriad porn sites and magazines available.

Or a guy could just, you know, have the cheesecake he's already getting anyway. If arched backs are to big a turn off for the ladies, I'm sure there are plenty of other entertainment avenues they could pursue. Like romance novels.

Every movement has its good and bad eggs. Every movement has its flaws. But if its heart is in the right place, mistakes and stumbles shouldn't be cause for total ridicule and dismissal. If there comes a time when feminism and feminists are provably corrupt and detrimental to society, then that is cause for new leadership and reform. However, my hope is there comes a day when feminism is no longer useful or necessary, but because its objectives are achieved and not because it's decided its flaws are more important than its ideals.

That day will never come.

People will simply start taking the microscope to something or another because feminism, like everything else, wants to be needed, it wants to exist.

[LoneNecromancer]

1. The character exist for the sole purpose of pleasing me by default, whether that's sexually or anything else.

2. There is nothing wrong with a product catering toward males.

3. Cheesecake in comic books is nothing like actually pornography. I'd show you the difference but I'm reasonably sure that's against the rules. Which should tell you something.



So? The two aren't mutually exclusive, she can look juicy and kick ass. No reason to settle for one when I can have both.



Or a guy could just, you know, have the cheesecake he's already getting anyway. If arched backs are to big a turn off for the ladies, I'm sure there are plenty of other entertainment avenues they could pursue. Like romance novels.

So basically "this product must appeal to me, f**k anyone else's tastes".

[Lax]

Seriously?
Newsflash, man: we're supposed to have outgrown the whole "men who look like women/ women who look like men= ewww" around the 60's or something.
Plus, she actually looks pretty cool. She has two swords and a badass coat.
Maybe you will find this suprising, but you're not supposed to masturbate while looking at every female characters in fiction. Let's leave the porn side of things to the porn.
It's perfectly fine to have some women not being all that attractive (and frankly, that's very relative: in real life, this woman would be considered pretty).

So you say, as someone else may say I'm supposed to have outgrown the whole "comics book" pastime by now.

Lax realises that girl is a teenager, right?

No, but thirteen year old me would've been saying the same thing.

[Blacksun]

It is designed specifically to serve women, even if it did happen to benefit men in some way, it would be as a side effect of it's intended purpose.

The same way Victoria Secret helps cross dressers out just fine but I'm not going to pretend that the company actually had them in mind when they started selling women's underwear.

victoria secret is a organization seeking for good publicity.

Feminism is a moviment that seeks equal representation for women. or men are opressed in out society? I don't think so. not everything is about men.

[Lax]

So basically "this product must appeal to me, f**k anyone else's tastes".

As oppose to, "a select group of people want something I don't, so bend over and take it for a team that finds my interests ranging anywhere from tasteless to outright harmful"?


Yeah, pretty much.

[Conch22]

At some point, that is what it is regardless of what one thinks it's supposed to be.



Well now, that depends on who you talk too because quite a few see it as objectification that is indeed harmful to real women in an abstract kind of way.



And I imagine that's why you would be considered a feminist, as your participation in such matters would be quite useful.

Mine, however, would not.



So, this is what the future holds in store for the fellas? Girls who look like boys? Lol. I'll pass on that if you don't mind.

Yeah, its called a character with physical or personal attributes similar to a tomboy, which is a type of person that exists but not the sole representation female role models in pop culture are being homogenized into. BTW, alot of fighters in different types of fiction have shortened hair period, since you seem to be acquainted with anime I'll refer to the example of Sakura in Naruto chopping her hair with Kunai knives because an enemy had hold of it putting her at a disadvantag. As for Attack on Titan, I thought all the characters in her unit were dressed similarly in a fictionalized paramilitary fashion. I watched the first season recently & quite ecstatically with minimal breaking over the course of half a day, so maybe the unit was more distinguished than I remember in clothing, I remember at least one of them having long hair for the other female team members if you're worried about dark clothing and short hair being a way of hiding what you consider the essence of femininity and its portrayal in fiction. I guess my overall point is female representation is vast and wonderous, particularly in the realm of sci-fi/ fantasy, and however prevalent one positive representation may be does not mean another positive representation is in danger of no longer being present.

And on the subject of how bodies are drawn in comics, its how bodies are drawn in comics. Idealized in appearance as there is a shallow part of everyone that prefers looking at what is considered beautiful (something prevalently ingrained to some extent in all of us by society from birth). I don't recall anyone looking at liefeld drawings and being offended at him objectifying men with all those fictional muscle groupings. There's serious male cheese cake in the Anita Blake graphic novels. I don't care for it, but I'm still able to enjoy the story and not feel personally emasculated.

[Blacksun]

Yeah, its called a character with physical or personal attributes similar to a tomboy, which is a type of person that exists but not the sole representation female role models in pop culture are being homogenized into.

+

she is not a tomboy, well i don't watch the anime but: her clother are fully covering her. nothing wrong in the context of the anime (protection).
some women are skinny.
from the image is impossible say she is a tomboy

[kidstandout]

+

she is not a tomboy, well i don't watch the anime but: her clother are fully covering her. nothing wrong in the context of the anime (protection).
some women are skinny.
from the image is impossible say she is a tomboy

i watch the anime and i can confirm that while she isn't a tomboy in the conventional sense, she aint no damsel either. she's just mikasa!

[Auguste Dupin]

So you say, as someone else may say I'm supposed to have outgrown the whole "comics book" pastime by now.

Only the notion that comic books are supposed feature exclusively female characters that are half naked, with boobs the size of an airplane, the body of a porn star, and posturing in completely unatural ways just so you can check out her boobs and her butt at the same time.
Unless you are reading comic books just because of the hot women with an improbable body, in which case, porn is cheaper, and at least they are naked.

[Dr. Hurt]

Only the notion that comic books are supposed feature exclusively female characters that are half naked, with boobs the size of an airplane, the body of a porn star, and posturing in completely unatural ways just so you can check out her boobs and her butt at the same time.
Unless you are reading comic books just because of the hot women with an improbable body, in which case, porn is cheaper, and at least they are naked.

Yeah seriously, just google and you can find all the porn you want. What's the point of drawing female superheroes like this at this day and age?

[kidstandout]

Yeah seriously, just google and you can find all the porn you want. What's the point of drawing female superheroes like this at this day and age?

i'd just like to say varying body types is the ideal solution here, it's okay for some heroines to have a figure so long as it's not exploited with awkward poses(like finch's ww cover lol)

[Lax]

if that were the case, then shoudn't wonder woman be part of the solution and not the problem? having her cater exclusively to woman only reinforces the stereotype

see my comment on the issue with misslane

You see it as a problem, I don't view entertainment as something that is responsible for targeting every demographic equally. Wonder Woman as a feminist is supposed to cater to women, so the ladies should enjoy it to the fullest and not worry about the males. If we happen to enjoy it, great, if not, oh well.

Twilight doesn't cater to males either and that's okay.

it doesn't have to be, you can enjoy the way a female looks without her bending her back needlessly 24/7.

Well, I'm not asking for it in every panel, but something like Benes work in Birds of Prey? Oh my God. Now I understand why the men of DC commit crimes. Jail? Worth it!

i don't judge you for liking it, but at somepoint one has to wonder why every dc heroine looks like a pinup model.

You don't know why? Lol.

she looks like boy to you? i'm not saying all female heros should get a six pack and shorter hair, but mikasa manages to retain her feminine beauty despite having to adjust to the hardship of war. and i've met plenty of girls who have that face that could make up for their lack TnA. if anything, i'm asking for variety.

Why tolerate a form of evil/oppression/sexism/misogyny?

Only the notion that comic books are supposed feature exclusively female characters that are half naked, with boobs the size of an airplane, the body of a porn star, and posturing in completely unatural ways just so you can check out her boobs and her butt at the same time.

Scantily clad beauties? Check.

Awesome body? Check.

And she arches her back? I'm down.

Yup, somehow all these elements still appeal to me.

Unless you are reading comic books just because of the hot women with an improbable body, in which case, porn is cheaper, and at least they are naked.

I want it all, action, plot, and most certainly the cheesecake. But since only the later is in dispute, it's the only thing we're going to be talking about.

[kidstandout]

You see it as a problem, I don't view entertainment as something that is responsible for targeting every demographic equally. Wonder Woman as a feminist is supposed to cater to women, so the ladies should enjoy it to the fullest and not worry about the males. If we happen to enjoy it, great, if not, oh well.

Twilight doesn't cater to males either and that's okay.



Well, I'm not asking for it in every panel, but something like Benes work in Birds of Prey? Oh my God. Now I understand why the men of DC commit crimes. Jail? Worth it!



You don't know why? Lol.



Why tolerate a form of evil/oppression/sexism/misogyny?

when a character represents a universal ideal like equality, it stops being just about entertainment. wonder woman has been a feminist icon for decades and has done so without exclusively catering to woman. and how dare you compare teen garbage like twilight to ww. that should be punishable by death jk.

that's just it though, if your going to give them these poses, can it atleast make sense and have context within the story? if she were posing for a photo up then go to town, but in the middle of flipping battle? cmon now. it's the needless part that makes it come off as comic-porn

care to explain im not following you

i dont think all cheesecake is bad and have already said that i don't mind it to a certain degree. to me depends on whether or not the figure of the heroine in question is being explicitly detailed and highlighted needlessly given the context of the situation. that's why i said to misslane that certain art can be considered cheesecake despite being fairly tame, which is the reason i'm not a fan of using the term in general

[Lax]

when a character represents a universal ideal like equality, it stops being just about entertainment. wonder woman has been a feminist icon for decades and has done so without exclusively catering to woman. and how dare you compare teen garbage like twilight to ww. that should be punishable by death jk.

Feminism is a female interest thing, it's going to naturally cater toward women.

I'm not saying a man can't enjoy her, I'm saying she's set up in a way that appeals to the female demographic and that's okay.

that's just it though, if your going to give them these poses, can it atleast make sense and have context within the story? if she were posing for a photo up then go to town, but in the middle of flipping battle? cmon now. it's the needless part that makes it come off as comic-porn

care to explain im not following you

Alright, example?

You know that Finch Wondy pic you hate? I love it. But here's the thing, when people say "pose", I often don't see it as posing for a camera. I see it as a body in motion and a snap shot in time.



Looking at her legs, I see it as Wondy pivoting on both her left toe and right heel in order to turn sharply toward her right-hand side. The way the shield looks in her hand suggests to me that she's in the middle of turning with enough speed to keep said shield from falling.

i dont think all cheesecake is bad and have already said that i don't mind it to a certain degree. to me depends on whether or not the figure of the heroine in question is being explicitly detailed and highlighted needlessly given the context of the situation. that's why i said to misslane that certain art can be considered cheesecake despite being fairly tame, which is the reason i'm not a fan of using the term in general

It's all good, I already knew what time it was long before I posted anything. I'm just having fun.