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  1. #31
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Earth 1 Dinah was supposed to be in her late 30s-mid forties. Green Arrow was roughly in his mid 30s. Instead of drawing her a bit older they continued to draw her as if she was young. So instead of just going 'Artist error' etc or even a "I age REALLY well" comment they came up with that stupid bs
    The thing is, almost all the JSAers looked younger than that to me then (as, indeed, did Bruce typically in post-COIE era when he had to have been at least late thirties). But I don't have original book. Mind you, that's still typical - even in post-COIE era when Bruce was at least late 30s (probably early to mid 40s), his age didn't show, either.
    JSA.jpg

    Of course, the JSA were only twelve years after their stories ended then. And one would have thought they'd have continued to non-age along with ours. Which works nicely with them all still looking not old when Larry dies at 39 (or technically, maybe 38 and he hasn't had his birthday yet in 1969). Dinah would, as you said, have been similarly aged. Maybe even mid-30s. And then just aged at the same rate as everyone else on Earth One (and since Dick Grayson was 18 in 1969 and 19 in 1980, it's not a problem that Dinah doesn't look any older than she did back then).

    JSA3.jpg

    Power Girl was only recently grown in All-Star Comics #60 (1976). The somewhere along the way the JSAers started looking their ages. Well, some of them got gray temples, anyway. Definitely by 1978, Superman had them. DCUGuide chronology indicates Helena Wayne showed up in 1977, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's when it happened. But really, the problem came from aging up the rest of the JSAers a lot well after Dinah had crossed universes. Or suddenly deciding they didn't have the same suspended aging as their Earth-One counterparts over the the 70s or something of that sort, anyway. What I'm saying is that the problem did not exist when Dinah came across universes - writing problems made it exist later.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-16-2019 at 04:22 AM.

  2. #32
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    I remember the late, great comic book fan Rich Morrissey opining on the ages of the DC characters, back when DC had a message board, and his position was that the stories happened when they happened and the characters didn't age. That's just how it is in comics, so accept it.

    I find that people will fixate on these apparent problems in comic books, while ignoring all the other stuff that wouldn't make sense in our world. So why are they so fixated on those things but not the other things?

    Back in the day, I doubt that any of the writers or editors were all in agreement on how exactly Earth-Two worked. You had stories where a writer would try to suggest one explanation for time, but others where the rules of time were different. And they never got deep into the whole situation. So I assume that there is no actual explanation for how time works--not on Earth-Two and not on Earth-One.

    And if you look at the DC stories today, not much has changed. Maybe Grant Morrison has a theory--but I get the feeling that the inside of Grant Morrson's brain is like the baggage claim at Heathrow Airport. Good luck finding what you're looking for in there.
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  3. #33
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The BC retcon happened in the summer of 1983 and COIE started at the beginning of 1985. So this retcon was really only valid for a year and a half. It's easy to just disregard it and say it's an effect of the coming Crisis that is literally destroying the multiverse.

    If Dinah Drake's age is a problem then so is the age of all the original JSAers. At least Dinah only came along in 1947, but most of the others had to be even older than her. However, there were several explanations for why they didn't age or aged very slowly. Roy Thomas had it that this energy from their encounter with Ian Karkull prevented them from ageing. But that happened before Dinah joined the JSA, so you would need a different explanation for her. The comic books are full of strange things that happen to characters that slow down their age or even make them ageless--just having a daft conversation in a 14th century tavern can win you immortality.

    It's funny that Roy Thomas co-wrote the retcon that made Dinah her own mother. I would expect him not to have bothered with that idea and just give her the same youth treatment he gave other characters.

    What's creepy about it is that Dinah 2 has all the memories of Dinah 1. So she remembers all her mother's experiences as if they happened to her--falling in love with Larry Lance, making love to Larry Lance and conceiving a baby by Larry Lance--the man that is in fact her father, she remembers as her lover. It's not something that holds up under much scrutiny.
    The problems back then with Black Canary was that she was tied to a specific time frame: late 1940s/early 1950s.
    She didn't have the advantage of the theoretical "sliding timescale" that could be applied to the Earth-1 heroes like Green Arrow (who she had become linked to).
    When she first came to Earth-1 it would have been less than twenty years after her last Golden Age adventure with the JSA, but by the time they introduced the mother/daughter retcon, another 14 years had passed. So they also had to find a way to explain why we all thought the Black Canary that had been in the JLA had also been in the JSA during 14 years worth of stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Afaik the whole Black Canaries-mind dump thing was DCs equivalent of the aftermath of the Pym slap. An ever more convoluting series of events to explain an artistic error.

    Earth 1 Dinah was supposed to be in her late 30s-mid forties. Green Arrow was roughly in his mid 30s. Instead of drawing her a bit older they continued to draw her as if she was young. So instead of just going 'Artist error' etc or even a "I age REALLY well" comment they came up with that stupid bs
    Again, after a while, BC would have been theoretically old enough to be Green Arrow's grandmother. Having a relationship between someone from a fixed time period and a character with a less fixed timeline will become even more obviously ridiculous than many other things comic book readers let slide.

    I didn't particularly like how they did it, but there weren't necessarily a whole lot of other options at that time under the circumstances they had.

  4. #34
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    See what I said above.

    If you really needed an explanation for BC's anti-ageing then just say that either she was being kept young by Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt (an explanation that could cover everyone on Earth-Two), time passes differently on Earth-Two, or the encounter with Aquarius that killed Larry Lance gave her renewed life. Just about any other explanation but the one they gave would have done.

    If her not ageing is supposed to be called out for the readers, then that would suggest the JLA should have known, too. So up until everything is explained (145 issues worth of JLA), no one, not even Oliver, thought it was strange how she didn't age? And you still have the original Black Canary anchored to the past--so even if Earth-One is on a sliding timescale, the age at which Dinah 1 died keeps going up along with the age at which she gave birth to Dinah 2. What is she, Abraham's sister/wife Sarah from the Bible? They just traded one age problem for another.

    Personally, if I could retcon one thing with the JLA/JSA crossovers it would be that the bridge between Earths not only connects vibratory planes but temporal planes. And thus while the JLA are on a sliding timescale, the JSA are always in the 1950s or 1960s. That would explain why they were relatively young while still a bit older than when their original adventures had ended in 1951.
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  5. #35
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Again, after a while, BC would have been theoretically old enough to be Green Arrow's grandmother. Having a relationship between someone from a fixed time period and a character with a less fixed timeline will become even more obviously ridiculous than many other things comic book readers let slide.

    I didn't particularly like how they did it, but there weren't necessarily a whole lot of other options at that time under the circumstances they had.
    A good point. While a separate Earth Two timeframe could have explained older but not elderly JSAers, the combining of everyone onto one Earth erased that option. The "daughter" solution bought time, but now that time seems to have run out. The "next generation" of the JSAers also would be getting older. A solution of grandkids only buys another generation, although that seems good enough for some.

    I've said it before that it's time DC found a timeless solution o the JSA age challenge. Such a solution would need to entail an Infinity, Inc, if DC wants to use them. And to be fair, it seems likely someone will want to revive them. No one is ever gone forever in superhero comics. IMO, simpler is better. Time jumps and such are great, but when dealing with families, enemies, acquaintances, etc., the story gets more complicated. The energies of Ian Karkull affected the JSAers and those close to them. I'm not sure that sells in 2019 comics.

    Seeing what happens will be interesting and I look forward to something bringing back the properties I enjoyed reading about updated for a new century.

  6. #36
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    The problems back then with Black Canary was that she was tied to a specific time frame: late 1940s/early 1950s. She didn't have the advantage of the theoretical "sliding timescale" that could be applied to the Earth-1 heroes like Green Arrow (who she had become linked to).
    Except she really wasn't. The time-slide was seemingly still in force for Earth-2 when she crossed universes. Which why Larry Lance was listed as born in 1930 on his tombstone, even though he clearly wasn't a 17 year old in the adventures we saw. Not tying the Earth 2 counterparts to a specific timeframe (and keeping the existing slide) would have kept the problem from arising. I understand why they thought there was more to gained than lost in tying them to that time frame, but that's what caused the problem, and it wasn't originally the case. And it ended up introducing more problems later, because time kept on passing, and then they had to create a reason for everyone else not being 70 (or now 100+), too.

    The "daughter" solution bought time, but now that time seems to have run out. The "next generation" of the JSAers also would be getting older. A solution of grandkids only buys another generation, although that seems good enough for some.
    Yeah, what they said.

    I've said it before that it's time DC found a timeless solution o the JSA age challenge.
    Honestly, while it does lose history (a lot of post-COIE history), going back to the separate-earths and telling stories set in that earth's 40s and 50s seems the way to go to me, though it would, by necessity, keep them limited in terms of aging, having kids, etc. If you want to cross universes, then it's 1948 in Universe-Earth-2 and 2028 in Universe-whatever-Earth-is-called-now.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-16-2019 at 09:52 AM.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    . . . Not tying the Earth 2 counterparts to a specific timeframe (and keeping the existing slide) would have kept the problem from arising. I understand why they thought there was more to gained than lost in tying them to that time frame, but that's what caused the problem, and it wasn't originally the case . . .
    So, you want a generic JSA that could easily have been the product of ANY decade that's a certain number of years in the past?

    I'm sorry, but a group of superheroes that first formed in, say, the 1960s would be a TOTALLY DIFFERENT group then the heroes who began at the end of the Great Depression and went through WWII. (The WWII influence is MUCH DIFFERENT from the Viet Nam War influence!!!)

    Don't bother bringing back the heroes of the JSA if they aren't connected to the past they had. DC already gave us that Earth 2-BS during the New52 and they couldn't replace the TRUE Golden Age-based heroes.

  8. #38
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    The 1940s JSA and the DC stories of their members from that period is the hook. If I can't have that, then I'm just not interested. They can do whatever they want with the timeline after that, but that part of their history needs to be kept intact.

    That still allows the writers to tell a compelling story of the generations of JSAers that came along in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s. That's the secondary feature of Earth-Two that interested me, because they could do these generational sagas, where we would see characters getting married, having kids, some characters dying--so it was about this whole world and not just a select few characters. That's the cool stuff that Paul Levitz and Roy Thomas did with the concept.

    There are so many movies and TV shows now that are set in the past, so I think people would be on board for that.
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  9. #39
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    So, you want a generic JSA that could easily have been the product of ANY decade that's a certain number of years in the past?

    I'm sorry, but a group of superheroes that first formed in, say, the 1960s would be a TOTALLY DIFFERENT group then the heroes who began at the end of the Great Depression and went through WWII. (The WWII influence is MUCH DIFFERENT from the Viet Nam War influence!!!)

    Don't bother bringing back the heroes of the JSA if they aren't connected to the past they had. DC already gave us that Earth 2-BS during the New52 and they couldn't replace the TRUE Golden Age-based heroes.
    I agree they would be different - in the same sense that our heroes are different now than they were in the 1960s. If you don't want that version, that's fine. But trying to do that (after seemingly keeping them tied to JLA-aging rate from early 1960s to mid 1970s) is what introduced the problem that didn't previously exist. And without further intervention as time goes on, it gets messier and more difficult to maintain. Which is what happened. And it got even worse after they integrated the worlds. While I enjoy some of the silver and bronze age stories with the Earth-2 folks, I don't consider those the TRUE Golden Age heroes. They were re-interpreted when placed on another earth and revisited after a long gap (this is particularly true for the Trinity, who had two versions). The TRUE Golden Age heroes were the characters as they were written in the Golden Age.

    The 1940s JSA and the DC stories of their members from that period is the hook. If I can't have that, then I'm just not interested. They can do whatever they want with the timeline after that, but that part of their history needs to be kept intact.
    I agree with the sentiment, but also that that wasn't the hook in 1961. They weren't thinking about WWII and the 1940s when they introduced Earth 2. It was about the old heroes readers hadn't gotten to see in a while. Sure, those were from the 1940s, but their stories weren't about that, and it didn't really figure in at first. That came later.

    I think if they want that hook, they need to be on a different world and not directly connected to ours when they can be the 1940s-1960s. Keeping them pegged to WWII is something that could only ever work for a very short time in the 1960s, IMO. I know some like the later stuff after the slow-mo aging was set up, but that was just really contrived to me, and even then only worked as a temporary measure unless you want them to get bogged down in misery of everyone around them aging and dying off while they don't age. Once they're 130 and have seen a couple generations of friends and lovers die, it's not fun to me at all.


    You don't want them if they aren't WWII formed. I get that. I just don't think it works in the present day on our Earth of 2019. Another Earth, set in a different time frame, is the best way to go IMO.

    Don't bother bringing back the heroes of the JSA if they aren't connected to the past they had
    I'd love to keep the past they already had in the mid 1950s. Not the past they had the 1980s onward. The 1960s and 1970 ...take some of it, but maybe make events happen a bit differently. I'd probably have the JSA keep their Canary and just have the JLA Canary an other-world counterpart. Helena's age would make more sense with Power Girl's, etc. (and don't even get me started on the icky implications of Dick and Helena and how gross that was when it was done). It can go beyond the 1960s, but once we hit the 1970s, there has to be torch-passing as too many of the heroes simply could not feasibly keep doing the job in their 50s. And I don't know that fans would care so much once most of the original JSAers were gone.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-16-2019 at 03:22 PM.

  10. #40
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Earth 1 Dinah was supposed to be in her late 30s-mid forties. Green Arrow was roughly in his mid 30s. Instead of drawing her a bit older they continued to draw her as if she was young. So instead of just going 'Artist error' etc or even a "I age REALLY well" comment they came up with that stupid bs
    GA was in his late '20s, FWIW. Totally agree about Dinah's appearance, though. She always looked like she was under 30.
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