Captain America #5 Reveals Steve Rogers’ Civil War II Secrets [SPOILERS]

[Huntsman Spider]

You mean if Miles went all blood lusted?

Yes. He's faster, stronger, has a precog, has multiple other powers (venom blast which took out freaking Blackheart among others, camo, sticks to walls) + webshooters

Only thing steve has on his side is experience and MA skill.

Written fully capable and out for blood, Steve wouldn't know what hit him

Thanks, I didn't read any Marvel Ultimate Universe (616 is hard enough to keep up with) so Miles is almost a brand new person to me.

Spider-Man is Spider-Man. Even in the Ultimate Universe, where Peter was officially portrayed as half as strong as he was/is in 616 canon and Captain America was explicitly superhuman as opposed to "peak human that often gets written as superhuman" in 616 canon, Cap was still portrayed as having a hard time overpowering Peter. Most versions of Spider-Man can lift at least 10 tons and are fast enough to catch up to speeding cars from a standing start, so from a physical stats standpoint, they would overwhelm Captain America in a fight unless distracted by inner conflict (like Peter was when fighting Cap in the original Civil War) or holding back severely out of fear of seriously hurting or killing him (like Peter, again). Captain America usually holds his own because he's a significantly better-trained and more experienced fighter, tactician, and strategist than most versions of Spider-Man, but if pitted against one that had no qualms about killing him or other internal conflicts derailing his focus and wasn't going to hold back for anything, he would be in serious trouble.

[Hulkout42]

I have a question, what happens when they undo the brainwash...and let's not kid ourselves in thinking they won't, what happens when Steve remembers everything he did under the orders RS as well as his "own" decisions? I mean can anyone honestly see Steve live with himself knowing that even though he was manipulated to do the terrible things he did he is still responsible for the lives that were ruined or destroyed during this period of time?

[jackolover]

Would kind of make it sad in hindsight because Amadeus did all this work and Bruce just goes ahead and dabbles into gamma hell.

I would think the Hulk would have wanted out. Locking Hulk away by removing all gamma puts Hulk into some sort of limbo, and like Peter Parker locked away in Superior Spiderman, he would find a way out eventually, and making Bruce dabble in gamma is one way for the Hulk to get out again. I think the Hulk is just as viable a character as Bruce, even more so. But if Selvig sent that memory stick, it does look like the Hulk was dead, and Amadeus killed him. Sort of ironic since Amadeus loved the Hulk.

[jackolover]

I disagree.

When previous cures failed, Banner or the Hulk both started deteriorating and being affected physically. During Byrne's run both started dying. During PAD's Heroes Reborn run, they both started dying. During Aaron's run, Banner went literally insane.

This time, a cure actually worked.

It also speaks volumes about the lack of understanding of the character when a nightmare can theoretically cause someone who's had it together mentally to become an emotionally fragile cripple who can't function. One who was surrounded by friends and family. People who are on his level who could have helped work on said "cure" if he believed he needed it.

No, it's just plain inconsiderate writing no matter how you spin it. Banner hasn't been this emotionally shattered teenager type for decades. He's matured, accepted that aspect of his life, merged, made peace, etc.

Instead we get, "Hey moooooooom, why did you go through my rooooooooooom? I'm not hiding anything! Why don't you trust meeeeeeeeee?" Banner when confronted.

Banner knew he had tight control over the Hulk and even came to accepting that side of himself, letting himself feel angry, controlling it, using it for good, working with heroes, etc.

Even Pak's send off for Banner who didn't believe initially, didn't cower, he happily threw himself into situations to test he was cured. Not a shred of fear or terror or anything resembling the imposter shown in CW who was afraid of his own shadow and had no control over himself.

Its good that the Hulk can still exist in Bruce's subconscious and reappear as nightmares.

[jackolover]

Fokken :

No. Hydra wasn't involved.
Ulysses was wrong or Red Skull lied to him.

1 and 2 - yes

Red Skull said to Cap America: "You will support Carol Danvers."
Steve ignored another Red Skull order.

Plus Steve sent Unity Division because he disbanded this unit.:P So thye will die or defeat Red Skull.:P

On the "you will support Carol Danvers" how did Steve ignore Red Skulls orders? Did he stop supporting Carol? I can't remember seeing him do that.

[jackolover]

1) But it would seem that only Clint and Bruce knew about the Hulk killing arrow (not seen any thing that would indicate Steve knew, correct me if I miss some thing my budget doesn't let me get all of the tie-ins), as far as Steve knew it was going to end in Bruce in a Hulk jail, or a total Hulk out and lost of people died. Also if Ulysses visions are processed from the information that he takes in he would have to have some understanding that Steve would have set off the Hulk then, right? That part again doesn't make sense how did he know that Thanos was going to attack, what information did he have to take in to see that? The explanation of Ulysses powers is some what lacking.

2)I don't think Steve would want the Red Skull to get Ulysses, he is plotting against him and it would be counterproductive in handing him over.

3) Your guess is as good as mine on that one, after the Spiderwoman issue where she found Ulysses to to be 100% on point, it would seem odd that he would misread such a thing.

Real question. Could Miles really kill Steve?

Could Miles kill Steve? If Steve was sitting on Miles about to bring his shield down to cut Miles head off, I can see Miles tossing Steve off him, accidentally impelling Steve.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Miles in an Anakin Skywalker moment where he throws a shard to kill Steve, and he is a villain. I don't know fully how that would work, but it would certainly give Miles his Uncle Ben moment.

[jackolover]

I have a question, what happens when they undo the brainwash...and let's not kid ourselves in thinking they won't, what happens when Steve remembers everything he did under the orders RS as well as his "own" decisions? I mean can anyone honestly see Steve live with himself knowing that even though he was manipulated to do the terrible things he did he is still responsible for the lives that were ruined or destroyed during this period of time?

It's the same as Bucky. Bucky went to trial and was basically acquitted. Then Bucky was sent to a gulag in Russia. But on your point how would Steve live with himself? I can see a new Captain America take over after Steve dies, if Sam has to hand back the Shield. That's what you're saying, though, isn't it? Cap dies after this arc?

To my mind, Steve resisted Red Skull the whole way, and his actions have not caused anyone death, just close to it. In fact, Steve is doing as much as he can to thwart all Red Skulls plans, because Steve is basically taking over Hydra and plans to kill the Red Skull. How is that not a redeeming feature of his mission? People can point to Steve and say, "But you were a member of Hydra, you traitor". And Steve could say, "And I made a better world by resisting my brainwash, and sabotaging Hydra because my subconscious made me act honourably"?

At some point Bucky will recognize Steve is Hydra and ask Kobik to undo that Hydra brainwashing.

[Cmbmool]

I have a question, what happens when they undo the brainwash...and let's not kid ourselves in thinking they won't, what happens when Steve remembers everything he did under the orders RS as well as his "own" decisions? I mean can anyone honestly see Steve live with himself knowing that even though he was manipulated to do the terrible things he did he is still responsible for the lives that were ruined or destroyed during this period of time?

I would love to see ONE FULL YEAR of Steve NOT BEING CAPTAIN AMERICA and still remain alive as a consequence of the reversal.

[Agent of Wolfram & Hart]

I can't help but wonder if Cap can recover from this, even if he's not in his right mind, it's not enjoyable for me to read about this Cap. I really feel like it's been forever since we've had a real Cap story, first he was aged, then this. I want Cap back

[jackolover]

I can't help but wonder if Cap can recover from this, even if he's not in his right mind, it's not enjoyable for me to read about this Cap. I really feel like it's been forever since we've had a real Cap story, first he was aged, then this. I want Cap back

I was honestly surprised with Cap's rapid rise of succession during "Infinity", and that Cap has not been needed in a long time, with Carol being in charge since Secret Wars. There would have to be something particularly dire for that Cap to come back.

[Hulkout42]

It's the same as Bucky. Bucky went to trial and was basically acquitted. Then Bucky was sent to a gulag in Russia. But on your point how would Steve live with himself? I can see a new Captain America take over after Steve dies, if Sam has to hand back the Shield. That's what you're saying, though, isn't it? Cap dies after this arc?

To my mind, Steve resisted Red Skull the whole way, and his actions have not caused anyone death, just close to it. In fact, Steve is doing as much as he can to thwart all Red Skulls plans, because Steve is basically taking over Hydra and plans to kill the Red Skull. How is that not a redeeming feature of his mission? People can point to Steve and say, "But you were a member of Hydra, you traitor". And Steve could say, "And I made a better world by resisting my brainwash, and sabotaging Hydra because my subconscious made me act honorably"?

At some point Bucky will recognize Steve is Hydra and ask Kobik to undo that Hydra brainwashing.

We can agree that someone will recognize the changes, on that i agree because that is how this will play out, there is no other outcome but that for how this will play out.

But as for the rest of your comment, i have no words, nothing comes to mind in light of what you just said...but not because you have given me an epiphany or made me see how wrong i am. No, i simply see your words and i know that nothing i say will make you rethink or question your position just as you must know i will not change mine. But i will say this if you truly believe the character of Steve Rogers would think any of that after all is said in done and either breaks free or released from this enslavement, then i don't believe you know that character at all.

So i will end this with the following...let's agree to disagree.

[Moriarty]

I can't help but wonder if Cap can recover from this, even if he's not in his right mind, it's not enjoyable for me to read about this Cap. I really feel like it's been forever since we've had a real Cap story, first he was aged, then this. I want Cap back

agreed. i think that is what makes this so bad. aged Steve was acting so out of character. so we finally get him back... only to find out he's Hydra.

[Xelossik]

jackolover :

On the "you will support Carol Danvers" how did Steve ignore Red Skulls orders?

He joined Tony side in Civil War 2 issue 4.

At some point Bucky will recognize Steve is Hydra and ask Kobik to undo that Hydra brainwashing.

It can be hard (after last issue)

Plus this is not brainwashing. Steve would resist brainwashing. She changed history.

[Prof. Warren]

It's the same as Bucky. Bucky went to trial and was basically acquitted. Then Bucky was sent to a gulag in Russia. But on your point how would Steve live with himself? I can see a new Captain America take over after Steve dies, if Sam has to hand back the Shield. That's what you're saying, though, isn't it? Cap dies after this arc?

To my mind, Steve resisted Red Skull the whole way, and his actions have not caused anyone death, just close to it. In fact, Steve is doing as much as he can to thwart all Red Skulls plans, because Steve is basically taking over Hydra and plans to kill the Red Skull. How is that not a redeeming feature of his mission? People can point to Steve and say, "But you were a member of Hydra, you traitor". And Steve could say, "And I made a better world by resisting my brainwash, and sabotaging Hydra because my subconscious made me act honourably"?

At some point Bucky will recognize Steve is Hydra and ask Kobik to undo that Hydra brainwashing.

No, because this isn't about brainwashing. Kobik has given Steve different memories. Steve isn't fighting against anything. No one's forcing him to do anything against his will. He's acting on his own volition off the memories he has now. He's still has the same moral certitude that he always had, he still has the same gift for strategy, the same ability to see a path to victory - but it's all in the service of Hydra now.

That's what makes this so great. The guy who - more than any other hero in the MU - always finds a way to win, regardless of the odds, is now working on behalf of Hydra. This is the guy you'd never want to bet against in a fight, the one guy you'd always choose to watch your back. And now he's secretly shaping events to serve his own hidden agenda and is willing to be ruthless to achieve his goals.

So how does this end? Who is going to be able to stop him? And how is Steve going to deal with this when it's all over? I think whatever happens on the other side of this is going to have a monumental impact on Steve - and the Marvel Universe as a whole - going forward.

[Moon Ronin]

Do you think that after this story is played it's course that Steve will return to the Nomad persona? It's said that is where he is going in the movies and could be a reason that Sam is still a Caption American in the comics.