DC and racially diverse characters. A problem???

[Ascended]

But there's also the question of how much is a problem with what DC is doing and how much of it is that the comic book buyers prefer more of the traditional white male old-school characters?

I think this is a part of the problem that often gets overlooked.

Yes, DC has struggled to make a lot of diverse characters sell. They have, and there's no excuse for that. A serious push for proper representation should have begun no later than the 80's, but its only been in recent years that DC has given this (another) shot. They've tried at various times in the past, but those almost always felt like gimmicks, and I never got the feeling that either DC or the fans ever expected most of those books to succeed. It just felt like going through the motions so they could claim to be champions of progressive social change.

Marvel is just as guilty too. Historically they have been worse at representing women and PoC in solo titles (worse in team books too outside of the X-Men), and while they current dominate that part of the market its a very new thing. They're far from innocent here.

So the companies should be held accountable, but so to should the fans and retailers.

DC and Marvel cannot and will not keep a book on the shelves that does not sell. And they shouldn't have to. Now, yeah, a lot of their diverse books have been pretty bad (a lot of their straight white guy books are pretty bad). But even the ones that are good fail. DC's readership is old and conservative. They dont want new books with new characters, they want the same characters they grew up with 30-40 years ago, doing the same things in the same costumes with the same villains. And for DC, that means white, straight male characters (since their biggest names were created in a less enlightened time). I dont believe its a "race" thing, I think its a "I dont want to try new things" thing. If Superman or Flash had been black from the start, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Alas, the 30-50's was no place for PoC to be leading characters. Hell, back then they were lucky if they were actual characters, and not just bad stereotypes.

DC is to blame for their troubles with diversity, but the fans and retailers deserve some of that blame too. We're the ones who under-order new books because it doesnt have a Bat on the cover and we expect it to fail. We're the ones who complain about a black man being given League status despite the fact that the character has been around for over three decades, held League membership before the reboot, and deserves the attention (even if there were better options). We're the ones who pass up the good diverse books so we can get the seventeenth Batman book that came out this month.

What DC needs to do is completely re-work their marketing and promotional habits. Great diverse books have failed because DC couldn't reach a new audience. If you want to fix diversity problems at DC you need to address this first, otherwise even the best diverse-lead books will fail. Then you need to get new talent who can speak to that new audience and tell stories they'll enjoy. DC tried to attract a new audience with the New52, but what they ended up doing was using every bad 90's troupe out there, which might have appealed to young, potential fans twenty years ago, but not today. It wasn't until Batgirl of Burnside that they finally stumbled upon something that could appeal to today's youth.

Manhunter was an amazing book featuring a female lead. Dial H was a great book featuring a old woman and a fat guy for leads (body type counts as diversity). OMAC was a great book featuring a...crap, what was he? Korean-American? The Others was a decent book featuring a whole team of diverse characters. Vibe was a decent book featuring a Latino lead. Cyborg (Walker's run) was a decent-good book featuring a black lead. They all failed because DC's fanbase is only interested in following the same characters they've been following their whole lives. So to fix that you need a wider fanbase.

[darkseidpwns]

Prior to the Civil War movie, a lot more people knew about John Stewart, Virgil Hawkins and even Vixen than Black Panther.

Doesn't matter now does it? now they DO know about Panther and that's what matters. Cyborg cant match this character and frankly neither can Static, BL and Vixen, the mythology and nature of that character generates instant appeal at the first glance, the same effect that Batman and Spider-Man have if you will. Even if Cyborg suddenly stopped having the problems that he does he still wont be able to compete with T'Challa.
If DC wants to throw their back behind anyone it should be Stewart and then Static and Batwing. Cyborg is the wrong horse to bet on and now he arouses suspicion that DC's establishment doesn't want a Black man to succeed therefore they have chosen this token guy to represent African Americans.

[Punjabi_Hitman]

So Detective Comics would be selling less if they added Batwing to the team from the start?

[Agent Z]

Doesn't matter now does it? now they DO know about Panther and that's what matters. Cyborg cant match this character and frankly neither can Static, BL and Vixen, the mythology and nature of that character generates instant appeal at the first glance, the same effect that Batman and Spider-Man have if you will. Even if Cyborg suddenly stopped having the problems that he does he still wont be able to compete with T'Challa.
If DC wants to throw their back behind anyone it should be Stewart and then Static and Batwing. Cyborg is the wrong horse to bet on and now he arouses suspicion that DC's establishment doesn't want a Black man to succeed therefore they have chosen this token guy to represent African Americans.

In a world were Deadpool managed to be a hit in theaters, one cannot truly predict what franchise will match or surpass the other. There have always been unexpected hits. Could Cyborg, Vixen, or BL match Panther? Who knows? The Black Lightning tv show in development has gotten some considerably good buzz. We'll have to see. But frankly, after Blade, Deadpool and GotG proved to be hits I think it is time we put to bed this notion that nothing can take off. Most of the movie going public doesn't care for the behinds the scenes antics anyway or Marvel would have lost money after Perlmutter's crap hit the fan.

[darkseidpwns]

In a world were Deadpool managed to be a hit in theaters, one cannot truly predict what franchise will match or surpass the other. There have always been unexpected hits. Could Cyborg, Vixen, or BL match Panther? Who knows? The Black Lightning tv show in development has gotten some considerably good buzz. We'll have to see. But frankly, after Blade, Deadpool and GotG proved to be hits I think it is time we put to bed this notion that nothing can take off. Most of the movie going public doesn't care for the behinds the scenes antics anyway or Marvel would have lost money after Perlmutter's crap hit the fan.

Deadpool also has the instant appeal affect, so does Harley, Wolverine, Jason Todd, Dick Grayson etc. Guardians was a complete surprise, even for Marvel itself but that surprise hit factor cant be bottled and released at personal discretion. Cyborg cant do it, he cant match the likes of Panther or even Miles, he's not fit for A-list status.

[Agent Z]

Deadpool also has the instant appeal affect, so does Harley, Wolverine, Jason Todd, Dick Grayson etc. Guardians was a complete surprise, even for Marvel itself but that surprise hit factor cant be bottled and released at personal discretion. Cyborg cant do it, he cant match the likes of Panther or even Miles, he's not fit for A-list status.

Prior to the movie, Deadpool was in the maligned Wolverine Origins movie. he was also played by the same guy who starred in Blade 3 and Green lantern, two other hated superhero movies. Instant appeal hasn't gotten Dick Grayson his own movie nor has it stopped him from being (perhaps unfairly) considered a joke by movie going audiences to the point that Christian Bale threatened to quit the movies if he ever showed up in them.

Movie going audiences don't have the same standards for what is considered a-list status by comic fans. They just want a good movie and don't care how many solo titles Cyborg has.

[Aahz]

So Detective Comics would be selling less if they added Batwing to the team from the start?

If they had taken out one of the more popular characters for him probably.
Having Tim, Steph and Cass together on the team got many people excited. And Batwoman seems also to have a bigger fanbase.

If they had added him as additional member or instead of Clayface it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

[darkseidpwns]

Prior to the movie, Deadpool was in the maligned Wolverine Origins movie. he was also played by the same guy who starred in Blade 3 and Green lantern, two other hated superhero movies. Instant appeal hasn't gotten Dick Grayson his own movie nor has it stopped him from being (perhaps unfairly) considered a joke by movie going audiences to the point that Christian Bale threatened to quit the movies if he ever showed up in them.

Movie going audiences don't have the same standards for what is considered a-list status by comic fans. They just want a good movie and don't care how many solo titles Cyborg has.

Instant appeal as Nightwing, the fact he has attained a level of popularity that allows him to have ongoings that outlast and sell more than the likes of Captain America, Iron Man and Winter Soldier is testament to that. Where do you think those fans come from? the fact he starred in a much maligned film and has no movie of his own while those 3 I mentioned have been starring in critical and financial hits is further evidence.Bale was against Robin, notice I didn't mention Robin anywhere.
Cyborg looks ugly period, not many look at that and get hooked, many of his ardent critics are Black themselves. There is a reason his design is subject to constant criticism.

[ed2962]

Doesn't matter now does it? now they DO know about Panther and that's what matters. Cyborg cant match this character and frankly neither can Static, BL and Vixen, the mythology and nature of that character generates instant appeal at the first glance, the same effect that Batman and Spider-Man have if you will. Even if Cyborg suddenly stopped having the problems that he does he still wont be able to compete with T'Challa.
If DC wants to throw their back behind anyone it should be Stewart and then Static and Batwing. Cyborg is the wrong horse to bet on and now he arouses suspicion that DC's establishment doesn't want a Black man to succeed therefore they have chosen this token guy to represent African Americans.

I get why some people don't like Cyborg, but I'm not sure I buy the idea that he's the "safe" black hero to use.

[mathew101281]

I get why some people don't like Cyborg, but I'm not sure I buy the idea that he's the "safe" black hero to use.

Yeah I'm not sure why they thought Cyborv could be an a lister.

[Waterfall]

It's not that PoC doesn't sell, it's that they don't know how to push them or introduce them.

First of all there IS an audience who are racists and will hate whenever a non-white character is introduced. It's appealing to other demographic that's important. Ms. Marvel is a huge success and DC should look why she worked so well.

1) Introduce a character without tipping on other's toes. Reasons why Duke hated is because he's very much forced to book with an alinieting premise, that Robin doesn't need a Batman. On top of that ASB is pushing him as "better and newer than a Robin" which obviously grinds people's teeth. Respect your roots. You can't introduce a new character while bashing other classic ones and expect them to stick around. Frankly, I'm of opinion that Batfamily shouldn't get new members until the already existing ones are given a position.

2) Don't change a character. Put the character in limbo and create a new one. I wish Wally never existed. But we can't get rid of him now, he's literally a plague in comics. We could have had XS utilized or Danica being introduced to main universe instead.

3) Make characters LIKEABLE! Seriously! It's not that hard! I love Jessica and Simon because they are so relatable, they have personalities, I'm glad they exist. I'll go further and say Jessica is the best new character DC has now. Even Kenan has a personality I'm sort of interested in. (kinda reminds me of a classic shonen hero)But Cyborg is stripped away from his personality and new 52 Wally is a m-e-s-s! Duke is incredibly bland and devoid of any personality. A character works because of a personality and they don't give any to those because DC is afraid of making them flawed. Let them be! Let them face consequences for their actions!

[Ascended]

My guess?

He's got a consistent history. Unlike a lot of other PoC characters, Vic has almost always been in print. Vixen, Lightning, Dr. Light...most others have seen long spans of time without showing up anywhere, but Vic has had few absences, and most of them fairly short.

He's not a legacy. There's no debate about whether Vic is the best Cyborg or not, like what you get with John Stewart.

Vic also ties nicely into the modern day level of technology. We're all cyborgs now. We're all connected, all the time, to our devices and phones and tablets and social media. Vic is the same way, just on a superhuman level. He says a lot about our dependence and reliance on technology. This gives the casual reader some insight into how Vic experiences his day, which can help get a hook in.

Vic's powerset is distinct from DC's other A-list characters. He's got super strength and enhanced durability like most of them, sure, but no one else is a human Transformer who can open Boom Tubes, mentally hack computers, and turn his hands into cannons.

His visual is distinct. You're not going to confuse Vic with any other character out there. Sure, armored heroes are a dime a dozen, but that face-plate stands out and provides an instant recognition factor.

There's no legal/ownership/bad blood issues with Vic like there is/was with Black Lightning, Static, or a few other PoC characters who might have been in the running for a A-list push.

Geoff Johns seems to be a fan. He's been building Vic up since Teen Titans back in what, 2004-05? From leader/mentor of the Titans to "subs" League member under Robinson to League mainstay in the 52, and now to solo title holder and (upcoming) movie star.

[ed2962]

Yeah I'm not sure why they thought Cyborv could be an a lister.

No. I meant this idea that DC was under some sort of pressure to have a minority hero, but somehow characters like Jon Stewart, Black Lightning, Steel, Vixen etc make people nervous so DC is using Cyborg who is "non-threatening."

[Johnny]

My guess?

He's got a consistent history. Unlike a lot of other PoC characters, Vic has almost always been in print. Vixen, Lightning, Dr. Light...most others have seen long spans of time without showing up anywhere, but Vic has had few absences, and most of them fairly short.

He's not a legacy. There's no debate about whether Vic is the best Cyborg or not, like what you get with John Stewart.

Vic also ties nicely into the modern day level of technology. We're all cyborgs now. We're all connected, all the time, to our devices and phones and tablets and social media. Vic is the same way, just on a superhuman level. He says a lot about our dependence and reliance on technology. This gives the casual reader some insight into how Vic experiences his day, which can help get a hook in.

Vic's powerset is distinct from DC's other A-list characters. He's got super strength and enhanced durability like most of them, sure, but no one else is a human Transformer who can open Boom Tubes, mentally hack computers, and turn his hands into cannons.

His visual is distinct. You're not going to confuse Vic with any other character out there. Sure, armored heroes are a dime a dozen, but that face-plate stands out and provides an instant recognition factor.

There's no legal/ownership/bad blood issues with Vic like there is/was with Black Lightning, Static, or a few other PoC characters who might have been in the running for a A-list push.

Geoff Johns seems to be a fan. He's been building Vic up since Teen Titans back in what, 2004-05? From leader/mentor of the Titans to "subs" League member under Robinson to League mainstay in the 52, and now to solo title holder and (upcoming) movie star.

Great comment.

[Aahz]

1) Introduce a character without tipping on other's toes. Reasons why Duke hated is because he's very much forced to book with an alinieting premise, that Robin doesn't need a Batman. On top of that ASB is pushing him as "better and newer than a Robin" which obviously grinds people's teeth. Respect your roots. You can't introduce a new character while bashing other classic ones and expect them to stick around. Frankly, I'm of opinion that Batfamily shouldn't get new members until the already existing ones are given a position.

The Batfamily any way so big that it is hard to add new charters.
And in general a new member has to be unique, or at least different from other characters of the same generation/gender. A characters of Damians generation/age would at the moment probably the easiest one to add. I don't think that for example many fans would have a problem if Maya Ducard would get a bigger role.