The case for a Nonagenarian Superman

[Jon Clark]

I like the concept of Superman living in real time. It was one of my favorite things about the Bronze Age Earth-2. It was interesting to have a Superman who was supposedly the result of 30-50 years of history and seeing things like Mr & Mrs Superman or Roy Thomas' All-Star Squadron made it even better.

But as even a separate on-going today I cringe at the thought. DC doesn't really have the type of writers needed to handle this. Sure you might find a Morrison who could keep the fictional continuity straight or a James Robinson who'd put in the effort to make a story feel like it was occurring in 1938, 1952. or 1967. But do you think they would stay long enough? Do you think DC would try to find someone else of equal talent when they left?

And even if we didn't get a lot of new stuff set in the early days, we'd still have problems fitting in the Weisiner era of "reuse the same story every few years" with any type of continuity that isn't a parody. For all of his use of classic Superman tropes in Supreme, Moore didn't bring up Supreme encountering "Supreme Jr" one year and "The Second Supreme" a few years later and "Supreme's Long Lost Brother" a bit after that. Or are we cherrypicking what issues count out of Superman's 75 years so we don't have Mon-El, Hal Kar, Hyperman, Super-Menace, Johnny Kirk, Skyboy, ... all trying to fit in the same history.

[superduperman]

The thing is, even if COIE had never happened, the Earth 2 problem would have had to be addressed eventually. The characters were aging. Maybe slower than they would have in real time but it was still happening. You can cheat your way around this by having something like the JSA disappear into a time warp or something but that doesn't take into account their supporting casts. By the time the JSA got back to Earth, Joan Garrick would be dead. Ditto Lois. Ditto Selina (assuming Batman is part of this group) Ditto any other spouses. And that doesn't take into account their kids. All of whom, if we were following the timeline of the original Infinity Inc., would have their own grown children by now. Everyone keeps saying they like the idea of a Superman who doesn't age and lived through real time but nobody wants to the logistical headache associated with everyone else that goes along with him.

[Jim Kelly]

On Earth-Two people did die--like Terry, Selina, Bruce, Wing--that was what was good about it. It did exist in real time. Being these were super-heroes, there was enough reason to explain why some lived so long. Frankly, a few of them looked too old (Diana started to have grey streaks in her hair by the early '80s, despite being immortal).

Personally, I was less interested in Infinity, Inc.--and more interested in the 1940s and 1950s stories of the Justice Society. The Earth-One books were set in the modern day--so I would have been perfectly happy if the Earth-Two books had stayed in the 1930s - 1960s time-frame.

Really, if the modern-day JLA had crossed over with a "golden age" JSA, that would have solved everything. They did do that once or twice.

[Ascended]

The thing is, even if COIE had never happened, the Earth 2 problem would have had to be addressed eventually. The characters were aging. Maybe slower than they would have in real time but it was still happening. You can cheat your way around this by having something like the JSA disappear into a time warp or something but that doesn't take into account their supporting casts. By the time the JSA got back to Earth, Joan Garrick would be dead. Ditto Lois. Ditto Selina (assuming Batman is part of this group) Ditto any other spouses. And that doesn't take into account their kids. All of whom, if we were following the timeline of the original Infinity Inc., would have their own grown children by now. Everyone keeps saying they like the idea of a Superman who doesn't age and lived through real time but nobody wants to the logistical headache associated with everyone else that goes along with him.

I'd think half the appeal would be seeing what Clark does after his supporting cast has aged and died, honestly. Who does he hang out with once Perry and Jim are gone? Does he ever move on after Lois? If so, with who?

Now, yeah, in the end it wouldnt likely work out. The logistics are close to impossible and the fandom would have a heart attack if Lois was dead. And you'd have to have the right creative team or it'd all fall apart no matter what. And it does threaten a lot of the themes and topics Superman classically deals with. But what would Clark's life look like after fifty years? Or sixty? Or seventy? Does he retire? Buy the Planet and use it as a global, corporate super-hero entity to dig out the truth and take on corruption directly? Does he pass the mantle on to Karen or Jon or Steel or someone?

An immortal Superman who has lived his entire history isnt likely to work. But you know what might? A Superman who is aware of all those versions and lives and history. Give me a Superman who "remembers" the Golden Age, the Silver Age, Smallville, Donner, Red Son, the radio show, and all his other adaptations. He can have a finite history that works with the rest of the DCU but through enhanced, cosmic senses be aware of his other multiversal versions. That might get the same feeling of "everything counts" without having to jump through hoops in the continuity or removing the supporting cast.

[sandmountainslim]

I'd think half the appeal would be seeing what Clark does after his supporting cast has aged and died, honestly. Who does he hang out with once Perry and Jim are gone? Does he ever move on after Lois? If so, with who?

Now, yeah, in the end it wouldnt likely work out. The logistics are close to impossible and the fandom would have a heart attack if Lois was dead. And you'd have to have the right creative team or it'd all fall apart no matter what. And it does threaten a lot of the themes and topics Superman classically deals with. But what would Clark's life look like after fifty years? Or sixty? Or seventy? Does he retire? Buy the Planet and use it as a global, corporate super-hero entity to dig out the truth and take on corruption directly? Does he pass the mantle on to Karen or Jon or Steel or someone?

An immortal Superman who has lived his entire history isnt likely to work. But you know what might? A Superman who is aware of all those versions and lives and history. Give me a Superman who "remembers" the Golden Age, the Silver Age, Smallville, Donner, Red Son, the radio show, and all his other adaptations. He can have a finite history that works with the rest of the DCU but through enhanced, cosmic senses be aware of his other multiversal versions. That might get the same feeling of "everything counts" without having to jump through hoops in the continuity or removing the supporting cast.

I agree with a Superman who remembers all those incarnations or at least parts of them. I think it's pretty clear that MYXYZPTLK remembers all the various versions of Superman and all the different universes so I see no reason why Superman couldn't also.

[DieHard200904]

I'd think half the appeal would be seeing what Clark does after his supporting cast has aged and died, honestly. Who does he hang out with once Perry and Jim are gone? Does he ever move on after Lois? If so, with who?

Now, yeah, in the end it wouldnt likely work out. The logistics are close to impossible and the fandom would have a heart attack if Lois was dead. And you'd have to have the right creative team or it'd all fall apart no matter what. And it does threaten a lot of the themes and topics Superman classically deals with. But what would Clark's life look like after fifty years? Or sixty? Or seventy? Does he retire? Buy the Planet and use it as a global, corporate super-hero entity to dig out the truth and take on corruption directly? Does he pass the mantle on to Karen or Jon or Steel or someone?

An immortal Superman who has lived his entire history isnt likely to work. But you know what might? A Superman who is aware of all those versions and lives and history. Give me a Superman who "remembers" the Golden Age, the Silver Age, Smallville, Donner, Red Son, the radio show, and all his other adaptations. He can have a finite history that works with the rest of the DCU but through enhanced, cosmic senses be aware of his other multiversal versions. That might get the same feeling of "everything counts" without having to jump through hoops in the continuity or removing the supporting cast.

To be honest, that is essentially what was done in alternate universes, one was Kingdom Come. The epilogue showed that he died of old age after living over 1,000 years.

The Dark Knight Returns showed someone who still looked young as part of Frank Miller's dislike or preference for street heroes above the more powerful, and that longevity / immortality was there just as a plot device to make Batman essentially humble him.

I mention both of those because in either universe, the supporting cast was wiped out or aged while he did not seem to. In a sense, they have played with the idea a little bit. I don't see it working as ongoing though.

[superduperman]

I'd think half the appeal would be seeing what Clark does after his supporting cast has aged and died, honestly. Who does he hang out with once Perry and Jim are gone? Does he ever move on after Lois? If so, with who?

Now, yeah, in the end it wouldnt likely work out. The logistics are close to impossible and the fandom would have a heart attack if Lois was dead. And you'd have to have the right creative team or it'd all fall apart no matter what. And it does threaten a lot of the themes and topics Superman classically deals with. But what would Clark's life look like after fifty years? Or sixty? Or seventy? Does he retire? Buy the Planet and use it as a global, corporate super-hero entity to dig out the truth and take on corruption directly? Does he pass the mantle on to Karen or Jon or Steel or someone?

An immortal Superman who has lived his entire history isnt likely to work. But you know what might? A Superman who is aware of all those versions and lives and history. Give me a Superman who "remembers" the Golden Age, the Silver Age, Smallville, Donner, Red Son, the radio show, and all his other adaptations. He can have a finite history that works with the rest of the DCU but through enhanced, cosmic senses be aware of his other multiversal versions. That might get the same feeling of "everything counts" without having to jump through hoops in the continuity or removing the supporting cast.

There's another way to do that that might be interesting. Have him end up on Earth Prime. He learns about his history as a fictional character there. He watches all the TV shows and movies. He reads the comics and books. He learns about his history. His REAL history. He even judges them based on quality! Do a storyline where he ends up stuck on Earth Prime for like a month. Enough time to study everything. And make it the mainstream Superman! Make this one of those stories, like his death or the Crisis or something, that sticks with him through all his incarnations and reboots. He can even help out in secret there under the radar like he did on post-Flashpoint Earth.

[bat39]

The thing is, even if COIE had never happened, the Earth 2 problem would have had to be addressed eventually. The characters were aging. Maybe slower than they would have in real time but it was still happening. You can cheat your way around this by having something like the JSA disappear into a time warp or something but that doesn't take into account their supporting casts. By the time the JSA got back to Earth, Joan Garrick would be dead. Ditto Lois. Ditto Selina (assuming Batman is part of this group) Ditto any other spouses. And that doesn't take into account their kids. All of whom, if we were following the timeline of the original Infinity Inc., would have their own grown children by now. Everyone keeps saying they like the idea of a Superman who doesn't age and lived through real time but nobody wants to the logistical headache associated with everyone else that goes along with him.

Exactly.

And remember, the Earth 2 Superman was created to basically serve as a Superman doppelganger to explain away the continuity error of Superman having been a member of both the JSA and JLA despite the two existing on different earths. They established him being the 'original' Superman who debuted in 1938 to put him in line with the other heroes who'd been around since WW2. And because they now had an 'older' Superman to play around with who wasn't the 'mainstream' version they could have him married to Lois, the Editor of the Daily Star etc. But he was never really meant to be a reflection of Superman in 'real time', or a proof of concept for how something like that would work on a permanent basis.

If the objective is to have "everything count", you can do what Morrison did for Batman, which may well be what Jurgens and Tomasi end up doing for Superman now. Bruce didn't literally have to be Batman in 1955 in order for his wacky adventures with Kathy Kane to still be in canon. Hell, its comic books! You can easily do a flashback story with, say, a 40's 'Golden Age' aesthetic without literally having to establish in-universe that Superman was around in 1941.

An immortal Superman who has lived his entire history isnt likely to work. But you know what might? A Superman who is aware of all those versions and lives and history. Give me a Superman who "remembers" the Golden Age, the Silver Age, Smallville, Donner, Red Son, the radio show, and all his other adaptations. He can have a finite history that works with the rest of the DCU but through enhanced, cosmic senses be aware of his other multiversal versions. That might get the same feeling of "everything counts" without having to jump through hoops in the continuity or removing the supporting cast.

I have a feeling they've set the stage for something like that with the current Superdad situation anyway. What with Rebirth, Manhattan messing with time, and Superman currently being from a parallel universe but likely to be revealed as somehow being the Superman of THIS universe...I think we will end up with Superman becoming aware of the fact that his timeline has changed, he's lived other 'lives' and he might possibly even remember them to some degree. Hell, that's likely going to happen to a lot of heroes now anyway.

[Ascended]

I agree with a Superman who remembers all those incarnations or at least parts of them. I think it's pretty clear that MYXYZPTLK remembers all the various versions of Superman and all the different universes so I see no reason why Superman couldn't also.

Given all the time Clark has spent outside of proper time, I see no reason why not. From the 5th dimension to New Genesis to the Bleed and the Monitor's world, Clark has been "above" reality plenty of times. No reason some of that hyper-awareness couldn't stick with him.

TIn a sense, they have played with the idea a little bit. I don't see it working as ongoing though.

They have played with it in the past. And right now there's been a lot of bringing those fringe concepts to the forefront. Clark dating Diana has a long history going back decades but was never really explored in continuity (outside of a few random hookups) until the reboot. Superman having a son is something we've likewise never really seen in continuity until now. So a Superman who recalls his various versions being explored in continuity seems to fit the current mold.

I have a feeling they've set the stage for something like that with the current Superdad situation anyway. What with Rebirth, Manhattan messing with time, and Superman currently being from a parallel universe but likely to be revealed as somehow being the Superman of THIS universe...I think we will end up with Superman becoming aware of the fact that his timeline has changed, he's lived other 'lives' and he might possibly even remember them to some degree. Hell, that's likely going to happen to a lot of heroes now anyway.

I agree. Superdad does not feel like the pre-52 Superman to me, and he's mentioned things that don't quite fit the post-Crisis version, such as the Rainbow Batman suit; a pre-Crisis story that got a couple tiny Easter eggs in post-Crisis but was never established as actually happening in that continuity. There's also the question of the origin images we've seen, such as his rocket being very Silver-Age in design, the look of his parent's statues in the Fortress, and so on, but given what a mess post-Crisis' origin was by the end I dont think we can look at that as concrete evidence that DC is indeed taking Clark in a "everything counts" direction.

[Jim Kelly]

And even if we didn't get a lot of new stuff set in the early days, we'd still have problems fitting in the Weisiner era of "reuse the same story every few years" with any type of continuity that isn't a parody. For all of his use of classic Superman tropes in Supreme, Moore didn't bring up Supreme encountering "Supreme Jr" one year and "The Second Supreme" a few years later and "Supreme's Long Lost Brother" a bit after that. Or are we cherrypicking what issues count out of Superman's 75 years so we don't have Mon-El, Hal Kar, Hyperman, Super-Menace, Johnny Kirk, Skyboy, ... all trying to fit in the same history.

I've devoted more time in my life than any sane person should to thinking about how you could reconcile all the different Superman stories in one fluid continuity. But I think it can be done.

Of course, it all depends on how you look at it. And I think the greatest problem isn't the Weisinger era, it's now. Any continuity for Superman is going to require some elastic thinking and currently we've got into a habit of mind where we forgive some logical inconsistencies but doggedly hold onto other kinds of comic book logic.

Not every fictional continuity works in the same way. And I don't think it worked that way back in Mort Weisinger's day. I don't remember having a big problem with the amount of repetition in the stories. I could read one story reprinted in a Giant and then see the same sort of plot used in a new story--and it all seemed to make sense. So I woncer if we can't accept that now because we apply a different kind of scrutiny to continuity.

[Jon Clark]

I've devoted more time in my life than any sane person should to thinking about how you could reconcile all the different Superman stories in one fluid continuity. But I think it can be done.

Of course, it all depends on how you look at it. And I think the greatest problem isn't the Weisinger era, it's now. Any continuity for Superman is going to require some elastic thinking and currently we've got into a habit of mind where we forgive some logical inconsistencies but doggedly hold onto other kinds of comic book logic.

Not every fictional continuity works in the same way. And I don't think it worked that way back in Mort Weisinger's day. I don't remember having a big problem with the amount of repetition in the stories. I could read one story reprinted in a Giant and then see the same sort of plot used in a new story--and it all seemed to make sense. So I woncer if we can't accept that now because we apply a different kind of scrutiny to continuity.

Exactly. Few of the Weisinger stories had sequels. We'd see Superman have that adventure and at least with the earlier tale we'd never see it referenced again. Clark and the Planet staff (or Smallville residents) were constant but nothing from the stories carried over from issue to issue most of the time.

That is what I see as the problem. It isn't that we can't reuse a concept as much as the idea that if you need to have it all fit together. I can read the Hal Kar story and the Mon-El story and enjoy both largely because I am not wondering how the heck Superman got it wrong twice. I'm not looking at all the parallel heroes (Power Boy, Mighty Lad, Marvel Man, Hyperman, ...) that the Silver-Age Superboy/man encountered and wondering if Superman is just part of some universal trend of aliens with near identical powers with secret identities as everyday people.

Or just the sheer number of times the same outlandish circumstances occurred. Clark was seen to "die" and had to come up with a new secret identity. A Superman robot went rogue and wound up trying to replace Superman himself. Superboy met another survivor of Krypton (excluding Phantom Zoners). We saw a "first" meeting between Superboy/man and someone that was totally different from the last version.

[Jon Clark]

An immortal Superman who has lived his entire history isnt likely to work. But you know what might? A Superman who is aware of all those versions and lives and history. Give me a Superman who "remembers" the Golden Age, the Silver Age, Smallville, Donner, Red Son, the radio show, and all his other adaptations. He can have a finite history that works with the rest of the DCU but through enhanced, cosmic senses be aware of his other multiversal versions. That might get the same feeling of "everything counts" without having to jump through hoops in the continuity or removing the supporting cast.

But at that point is this closer to Superman 2017 remembering what his great-granddad told him about his own adventures as Superman in 1938? Not necessarily in a literal sense, but rather in the sense that the current Superman has as much connection to the lives of these other Superman as he would to hearing about Jor-El's ancestors. Or are we talking more like Superman remembering those events as if he actually lived them, almost like he'd been that other Superman in a past life?

I mean there is obviously a difference for me- someone born in the late 1960's between my attitudes towards things like JFK or Pearl Harbor than my parents who lived through JFK as adults or my grandparents who actually were part of America's reaction to December 7th. A Superman who remembers personally interacting with several Luthors is different from one who might have all the facts about those encounters but no first hand experience.

[Ascended]

But at that point is this closer to Superman 2017 remembering what his great-granddad told him about his own adventures as Superman in 1938? Not necessarily in a literal sense, but rather in the sense that the current Superman has as much connection to the lives of these other Superman as he would to hearing about Jor-El's ancestors. Or are we talking more like Superman remembering those events as if he actually lived them, almost like he'd been that other Superman in a past life?

I mean there is obviously a difference for me- someone born in the late 1960's between my attitudes towards things like JFK or Pearl Harbor than my parents who lived through JFK as adults or my grandparents who actually were part of America's reaction to December 7th. A Superman who remembers personally interacting with several Luthors is different from one who might have all the facts about those encounters but no first hand experience.

I think either approach has its good points and bad points.

For myself, I think you want to make sure that Clark has some agency in his own life, the one happening today, at this moment. And if he remembers other versions and other times as if he himself had lived them, with all the emotional connections that brings, that cheapens the events of the now. So I'd say let him remember these other versions as if he were watching a movie filmed through those other Supermen's eyes. He remembers these events and he's....attached....to those memories in the same way you or I are attached to our favorite books or films. But there's a sense of distance to the memories; he didnt fight the Ultra-Humanite in 1939, he just remembers another version of himself doing so.

[Superlad93]

I think either approach has its good points and bad points.

For myself, I think you want to make sure that Clark has some agency in his own life, the one happening today, at this moment. And if he remembers other versions and other times as if he himself had lived them, with all the emotional connections that brings, that cheapens the events of the now. So I'd say let him remember these other versions as if he were watching a movie filmed through those other Supermen's eyes. He remembers these events and he's....attached....to those memories in the same way you or I are attached to our favorite books or films. But there's a sense of distance to the memories; he didnt fight the Ultra-Humanite in 1939, he just remembers another version of himself doing so.

You know how you do this? You let Clark read about the other Supermen's adventures in comics. Multiversity just established that all of the in each world are gateways to other worlds. You have Red Racer--the gay Flash analog who's a comic nerd and goes out with the GL analog--lend Clark some really old comics (I imagine President Superman will eventually be in touch with Clark sometime in the future. That or Clark build a device that picks up on Racer's frequency). Clark eventually finds out that these comics are of past incarnations of himself. You could play with the emotional aspects of this pretty well. Like that temptation all comics fans have to spoil themselves by looking ahead, however for Clark it might have parallels to his world, so is it immoral for him to NOT look ahead?

Eventually I imagine he puts the books down, never finishes them, and locks them away. He probably figures it was doing more to stagnate him than to help him move forward. He says something like "I think I'm done with back issue. It's time to move forward." As he says this, a kid in another world is reading the issue that he says it in.

This way it doesn't complicate his character too much, but he gains some knowledge from his past selves, and there's a nice little meta message in there for good measure. It's like a more personal and meaningful Civil War 2 but with Superman. Just picture him reading imaginary stories about his possible kids to get a handle on how to bring up Jon or stop things before they happen. It's more of an emotional crisis that ends in renewed resolve. That's how I'd do it.

[stephens2177]

Superdad is probably the superman that "most" things happened too.so he can be the every superman superman.anything that hasn't happened is ripe to be told in a new story in the future.

I don't see DC doing the superman multiverse,or the 1938 guy,theven way above is more DC'S style,use what they want,sweep the rest under the rug UNTIL they want to use it.