It seems like DC knows where its going

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

But if it didn't actually happen within the New 52 universe, then it's more akin to having a dream then bringing back the DCU.

Not really. Not even close, actually. Firstly, you're assuming that these events won't be brought back with those 10 years that we are supposed to be getting back at the end of Rebirth. They likely will be added back to the timeline, which would then mean that they physically did take place in the DC Universe. Secondly, even if they weren't added back to the timeline, the memories of them being added back is not the same as only having a "dream." Dreams are things that you know DIDN'T happen. In other words, they are not reflections of real-life events and as such have no impact on the narrative of your life. Additionally, your dreams are things that only YOU know. Shared memories and experiences are known by every person who experienced them.

If Cyborg and the rest of the Titans and the DCU regain their memories of Cyborg as a Titan that impacts how people view Cyborg and how Cyborg looks at his own life. He knows he was a Titan. He remembers his friendships with all of the individual Titans and all of their adventures and all of their villains. And what's more, they all remember him and remember their common bond. So Cyborg could walk into Titans Tower and be welcomed as a former Titan, whereas now, he's known only as a JLA member and if he walked into Titans Tower, the Titans would wonder what he's doing there. On that same tangent, now if Cyborg were to fight Deathstroke, Slade would view him as some guy on the JLA, whereas if their memories were restored, Slade would know him and remember him as one of his primary enemies.

MEMORIES dictate the way people interact with each other. The people you love, you love because you remember all of the good times you've had with them and the bond you've built. Conversely, the people you HATE, you hate because you recall how they've wronged you.

[Blackest Knight]

But if it didn't actually happen within the New 52 universe, then it's more akin to having a dream then bringing back the DCU.

I've been reading your posts here and am genuinely baffled by most of your comments--which is tough for me because usually I strongly agree with you.

It *did* happen in the DC Universe. But as Rebirth has implied, Doctor Manhattan (possibly imprisoned and manipulated by Mr. Oz AKA Ozymandias) either removed or deleted those events and memories of them. Now they're returning.

The fact they weren't depicted in the New 52 is meaningless. Those events still happened and now they're being restored to the timeline.

[Blackest Knight]

Not really. Not even close, actually. Firstly, you're assuming that these events won't be brought back with those 10 years that we are supposed to be getting back at the end of Rebirth. They likely will be added back to the timeline, which would then mean that they physically did take place in the DC Universe. Secondly, even if they weren't added back to the timeline, the memories of them being added back is not the same as only having a "dream." Dreams are things that you know DIDN'T happen. In other words, they are not reflections of real-life events and as such have no impact on the narrative of your life. Additionally, your dreams are things that only YOU know. Shared memories and experiences are known by every person who experienced them.

If Cyborg and the rest of the Titans and the DCU regain their memories of Cyborg as a Titan that impacts how people view Cyborg and how Cyborg looks at his own life. He knows he was a Titan. He remembers his friendships with all of the individual Titans. And what's more, they remember him and remember their common bond. So Cyborg could walk into Titans Tower and be welcomed as a former Titan, whereas now, he's known only as a JLA member and if he walked into Titans Tower, the Titans would wonder what he's doing there.

^THIS^ times 10.

That is exactly how I see the stories in DC going down over the next 12 to 18 months, too.

It was like seeing Ben Percy's sequence in TT Rebirth #1 where Starfire's romance with Nightwing was noted in one panel along with her feelings for him. It was a like a breath of fresh air and made such a positive difference to me as a 40 year Titans fan.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

i've been reading your posts here and am genuinely baffled by most of your comments--which is tough for me because usually i strongly agree with you.

It *did* happen in the dc universe. But as rebirth has implied, doctor manhattan (possibly imprisoned and manipulated by mr. Oz aka ozymandias) either removed or deleted those events and memories of them. Now they're returning.

The fact they weren't depicted in the new 52 is meaningless. Those events still happened and now they're being restored to the timeline.

exactly!!!

[MajorHoy]

http://www.cbr.com/report-dc-rebirth...-span-2-years/

You do realize the article you cited doesn't have anybody at DC specifically saying they're bringing back the pre-Flashpoint DCU and replacing the New 52 events?
From your source:

“Rebirth,” which Johns has stipulated is “not a reboot,” has been promised by DC co-publisher Dan Didio to be a return to the cohesive continuity-style of storytelling the company saw success with during its “Countdown to Infinite Crisis” era, paired with the “freshness and newness of the New 52.” Fellow co-publisher Jim Lee has indicated that the goals of “Rebirth” are “a renewed focus on story and character.”

Please note that DiDio supposedly said a return to the style, NOT to every little story and tid-bit from pre-Flashpoint continuity.

And, is it possible that . . . the DC Universe: Rebirth Wally West isn't really Wally West?

Again, given that DCU: Rebirth shows him wearing that exact outfit and running with those exact same people and the rest of the Flash family the exact way they were before Flashpoint, its not likely that this is a "different" Wally West. Rebirth essentially sets up that nobody in the DC Universe is "different" from whom they previously were, but that they've simply had moments from their lives pulled out of the time stream. If Wally's time in the Speed Force illuminated him to that reality and if Superman currently remembers those moments as they were originally published, its only a matter of time before the rest of the universe is enlightened to that same truth.

You don't seem to have clue what I'm referring to by

is it possible that . . . the DC Universe: Rebirth Wally West isn't really Wally West?

or why I included that specific cover, do you?

[Blackest Knight]

You do realize the article you cited doesn't have anybody at DC specifically saying they're bringing back the pre-Flashpoint DCU and replacing the New 52 events?
From your source:Please note that DiDio supposedly said a return to the style, NOT to every little story and tid-bit from pre-Flashpoint continuity.

is it possible that . . . the DC Universe: Rebirth Wally West isn't really Wally West?

You don't seem to have clue what I'm referring to by or why I included that specific cover, do you?

???

I am sorry, but any implication that Wally West in DCU Rebirth #1 isn't the real deal falls completely apart in the face of this moment:

DCU Rebirth_Wally.jpg

The emotion and the power of that moment is absolutely central and critically vital to the groundswell of enthusiastic good will and passionate support of Rebirth that has rocketed DC to the top of the sales charts.

No way on Earth that Geoff Johns or anyone on DC editorial team is going to undermine that by retroactively making a mockery of that whole scene and all the fans who literally wept when reading it. That's the real Wally West. Period. Believe it.

[Atlanta96]

Yeah, Return of Barry Allen didn't really try to make "Barry" significant to the DCU at any point before the big reveal. He just kind of showed up, which is why the twist worked. We've already seen Wally reunite with Barry, the Titans, and his narrations (that take place inside his head) pretty much prove beyond all doubt that this is the real Wally. Thank God for that.

[The Darknight Detective]

I've been reading your posts here and am genuinely baffled by most of your comments--which is tough for me because usually I strongly agree with you.

It *did* happen in the DC Universe. But as Rebirth has implied, Doctor Manhattan (possibly imprisoned and manipulated by Mr. Oz AKA Ozymandias) either removed or deleted those events and memories of them. Now they're returning.

The fact they weren't depicted in the New 52 is meaningless. Those events still happened and now they're being restored to the timeline.

Okay, we're talking different things now. I definitely agree all of the stories from all three multiverses happened at some point. No disagreement there, if that's what you're suggesting.

[MajorHoy]

???

I am sorry, but any implication that Wally West in DCU Rebirth #1 isn't the real deal falls completely apart in the face of this moment:

DCU Rebirth_Wally.jpg

The emotion and the power of that moment is absolutely central and critically vital to the groundswell of enthusiastic good will and passionate support of Rebirth that has rocketed DC to the top of the sales charts.

No way on Earth that Geoff Johns or anyone on DC editorial team is going to undermine that by retroactively making a mockery of that whole scene and all the fans who literally wept when reading it. That's the real Wally West. Period. Believe it.

Mind you. I wasn't saying he definitely wasn't, but the fact that this Wally was dressed in his old (last century?) yellow Kid Flash outfit does raise the question of whether there's something about this Wally that wasn't adding up to when he was last seen prior to the New52.

(But, c'mon . . . after what they pulled with Barry in the story arc I included a cover from . . . why couldn't they pull something similar with returned Wally, too?)

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You do realize the article you cited doesn't have anybody at DC specifically saying they're bringing back the pre-Flashpoint DCU and replacing the New 52 events?
From your source:Please note that DiDio supposedly said a return to the style, NOT to every little story and tid-bit from pre-Flashpoint continuity.

Notice how Didio ALSO said cohesive continuity. And what would be that continuity they're referring to????? Oh, I don't know. Maybe the one that they had for several decades and the one they make major allusions to returning to in DCU: Rebirth and across the Rebirth line?? There have been several mentions in several books of Pre-FP stuff returning to the timeline. For example, Nightwing just mentioned last issue of Batman that he was Robin as a child whereas the New 52 established him as taking on the mantle as a 17-year-old. Also, Rose Wilson in the last issue of Deathstroke made reference to the fact that she was trained by Nightwing, which was a development during Devin Grayson's run, which apparently had been wiped away by the New 52.

You don't seem to have clue what I'm referring to by or why I included that specific cover, do you?

Oh, no I do. You're alluding that this Wally is some sort of copy, just like how the "Barry" who came back in Return of Barry Allen wasn't really the real Barry, but was actually Eobard Thawne. However, as Blackest Knight pointed out, that would fly in the face of pretty much everything that DC has promoted Rebirth to be. Additionally, Wally since his return hasn't acted at all out of character. He is still the same character he was.

Additionally, in DCU: Rebirth, we actually saw inside his head and saw memories that clearly show that THIS is Wally. We see him running with the Flash family and his kids in a scene that is most DEFINITELY Pre-FP. We see him with the founding roster of the Titans. We see him kissing his wife. We see him holding Barry's tattered costume in a scene taken directly from COIE #12. These are things that only Pre-FP Wally would know.

[Blackest Knight]

Mind you. I wasn't saying he definitely wasn't, but the fact that this Wally was dressed in his old (last century?) yellow Kid Flash outfit does raise the question of whether there's something about this Wally that wasn't adding up to when he was last seen prior to the New52.

(But, c'mon . . . after what they pulled with Barry in the story arc I included a cover from . . . why couldn't they pull something similar with returned Wally, too?)

He's dressed in that outfit for what I think is a painfully obvious reason: that's his most famous costume--and also because Wally is *not* going to replace Barry. Also, he's years younger and thus is wearing his uniform from when he was younger.

That very big moment written by Johns and illustrated by Jimenez is not only canon, but is now officially iconic. The loud cries of shock, surprise, joy and delight that flew all over the Internet and in comic shops everywhere have burned that scene into people's brains. And it was a massive game changer that totally electrified interest in DC Rebirth and got people to suddenly want to read DC Rebirth.

There is absolutely no way DC is going to jeopardize or sabotage the gargantuan amount of good will that sequence earned them (and it definitely earned it). It's Wally and that pivotal moment will justifiably remain the foundation for the inevitable Watchmen/DCU mega crossover that DC is literally banking on to mint them a ton of money and media coverage.

[MajorHoy]

He's dressed in that outfit for what I think is a painfully obvious reason: that's his most famous costume--and also because Wally is *not* going to replace Barry. Also, he's years younger and thus is wearing his uniform from when he was younger.

If that's the case, wouldn't it mean DC isn't going to restore every little thing from before the New 52?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If that's the case, wouldn't it mean DC isn't going to restore every little thing from before the New 52?

No. It doesn't. Because, if you had actually read, you'd know that Wally, and now Barry, KNOW about Wally's time as the Flash. They know that Wally once took over the mantle. In fact, in Titans #1, Wally's narration leads to a flashback moment where he is wearing the Flash costume (without the gross chinstrap) while holding Linda Park. So, yes, Wally's time as the Flash is definitely back in canon or at least in his and Barry's memories.

What Blackest Knight is referring to is that DC is not going to have Wally replace Barry again. They're going to give Wally a chance to find himself outside of being either Kid Flash or Flash, hence his new costume.

[Blackest Knight]

If that's the case, wouldn't it mean DC isn't going to restore every little thing from before the New 52?

But from what point in time? We are told it's 10 years. They're really never going to say when that 10 years begins and when it ends.

Yes, there will be some fudging of the details. It won't be perfect; it never is. As long as the major data points are restored and renewed, I think most fans (myself included) will be happy and won't sweat the small stuff.

What qualifies as "small stuff?" That's debatable. But given the smash hit sales success of Rebirth, DC has been doing things very, very right so far. Especially with more and more LCS's reporting seeing old fans back and also a lot of new fans they've never seen before. Based on sales figures and fan response, DC is getting the major stuff right. The number of happy fans far outweighs the few naysayers (and there are always naysayers)--and the sales numbers bear that out.

[Blackest Knight]

No. It doesn't. Because, if you had actually read, you'd know that Wally, and now Barry, KNOW about Wally's time as the Flash. They know that Wally once took over the mantle. What Blackest Knight is referring to is that DC is not going to have Wally replace Barry again. They're going to give Wally a chance to find himself outside of being either Kid Flash or Flash, hence his new costume.

Thanks!

Yeah. He'll be Flash in the same way Jay Garrick will be Flash in JSA Rebirth. Neither will be The Flash in the main way that Barry Allen is. Not with a hit CW series and also a major motion picture and his role in the movie Justice League.

It'll be Barry as The Flash with Wally and Jay as "other Flashes."