Was Clint justified?

[Hulkout42]

Hey Hulkout42,

I get where you are coming from and you have an understandable position given a), from your username I guess you are a Banner fan and b), as I have been saying the writers aren't doing a very good job of making Clint's position one that it is sympathetic. However I'd like to address your points.

1) I'll take your word for this as I haven't read any of those comics.

2) The panel argument doesn't really hold water with me. If you have read The Accused it clearly and unequivocally shows that Clint saw green flickering (note that I don't think that means that Banner was Hulking out). If anyone is looking at this issue with an open mind you at the very least have to consider this fact.

3) For me assisted suicide is nothing like murder. I respect that you have a different opinion though.

4) I disagree with the premise and conclusion you've jumped to (e.g. point 3) but I do agree there is a lot he has to do to be 'redeemed' and basically the forgiveness of those four you mentioned would only be a start. But, I also think the forgiveness from Banner goes both ways as he has put Clint into a difficult situation.

I also think that you have cherry picked your facts a bit as you have ignored any that might support Clint's decision or taken the most negative view possible on any of his actions.

Anyway I want to thank you for your post, I know it is irrelevant to you whether it was liked or not but for me it is one of the best posts in the thread. Over the last week or so I've changed my mind often on this whenever I've given it any thought. After reading this I've categorically ruled out the 4th option (No - not even close), it is probably not what you intended but it what it is.

My name has nothing to do with my views, in fact it was based on a old password i used in one of my previous jobs, and while i like Hulk and i admit i am sympathetic to him because he is never seen as more than a monster even by the man whom he dwells inside of my views are colored by the fact that Marvel has screwed over two well like characters and i just can't see the justification for it. A for everything else, i stand by what i said...liked or not i have said my piece.

[Hulkout42]

What about Ulysses's prediction? Clint, Carol and a whole bunch of others saw this prediction and had been treating as 100% likelihood of happening. Couldn't that be interpreted as further proof that Banner was going to change?

As evidenced in the Wolverine and Spider-man tie ins, the predictions can be self fulfilled or in the case of HydraCap and Kamala's tie ins be deliberately induced. Also the kid has no real control when he gets emotional over his power so it can't be said it is foolproof. They saw something that may happen not did happen, there is too many factors involved to say it was inevitable.

[brettc1]

As evidenced in the Wolverine and Spider-man tie ins, the predictions can be self fulfilled or in the case of HydraCap and Kamala's tie ins be deliberately induced. Also the kid has no real control when he gets emotional over his power so it can't be said it is foolproof. They saw something that may happen not did happen, there is too many factors involved to say it was inevitable.

Agreed.

The very fact that the predictions can be voided means they are not, by definition, inevitable.

Considering the latest prediction is that Spider-Man will kill Captain America, I would say the value of the predictions just plummeted sharply.

[Juggernaut Punch]

^ That's why I pointed out my final point - there's nothing to indicate he had changed his mind about the fundamental fact that he wanted to die if he started to transform into the Hulk. He just didn't want to die if he didn't (and didn't want to get arrested either).



Well, I think his eyes turning green would be something that indicated a transformation. It once again goes down to that fundamental question about whether Clint genuinely saw his eyes turn green before he fired. As I said before, we're not meant to know the answer to that question, but I don't think it's a useful debate without at least tackling it from the angle of "let's assume Clint was 100% correct in what he saw and what he was told. Is he justified then?" A lot of the discussion does at least consider it from this side, but "maybe he didn't see the eyes change" doesn't add anything to the conversation.

Another good point. Assuming that Clint did indeed see his eyes turn green, assumed that he was Hulking out, and considering the fact that Banner asked him to kill him if that happened, I would still argue that Clint was in the wrong. Even considering the fact that he was honouring someone else's wishes, clearly killing him isn't the only solution. He could have just shot him with a tranq the moment they arrived on the scene, or the moment he saw the green flicker. Banner has himself used tranquilisers to keep the change at bay, so we know it works.

I think it comes down to whether it's right to honour a person's wishes regardless of their mental state, or if it's right to ignore that person's wishes with their best interest in mind. Say a cancer patient has his cancer go into remission, but traumatised after a long and painful treatment, asks a friend to kill them if the disease comes back. Is that friend right to kill them or to allow others to try and save that person's life, even if that person, at the moment of asking, doesn't want them to.

What about Ulysses's prediction? Clint, Carol and a whole bunch of others saw this prediction and had been treating as 100% likelihood of happening. Couldn't that be interpreted as further proof that Banner was going to change?

Even if we assume that Ulysses' visions are 100% accurate (which doesn't appear to be the case), all that vision suggested was that Banner was at some point going to turn into the Hulk and kill them all, not that he was going to turn into the Hulk at that very moment. Even in the belief that the vision was 100% accurate and that it was going to happen, killing him isn't exactly the best way of handling the situation.

[brettc1]

Another good point. Assuming that Clint did indeed see his eyes turn green, assumed that he was Hulking out, and considering the fact that Banner asked him to kill him if that happened, I would still argue that Clint was in the wrong. Even considering the fact that he was honouring someone else's wishes, clearly killing him isn't the only solution. He could have just shot him with a tranq the moment they arrived on the scene, or the moment he saw the green flicker. Banner has himself used tranquilisers to keep the change at bay, so we know it works.

I think it comes down to whether it's right to honour a person's wishes regardless of their mental state, or if it's right to ignore that person's wishes with their best interest in mind. Say a cancer patient has his cancer go into remission, but traumatised after a long and painful treatment, asks a friend to kill them if the disease comes back. Is that friend right to kill them or to allow others to try and save that person's life, even if that person, at the moment of asking, doesn't want them to.



Even if we assume that Ulysses' visions are 100% accurate (which doesn't appear to be the case), all that vision suggested was that Banner was at some point going to turn into the Hulk and kill them all, not that he was going to turn into the Hulk at that very moment. Even in the belief that the vision was 100% accurate and that it was going to happen, killing him isn't exactly the best way of handling the situation.

Another good point.

The visions give no context. What if Banner was being mind controlled or possessed?

[Mike_Murdock]

I suppose there's another philosophical question worth addressing - is it ethically OK to kill the Hulk without the Hulk's consent? Suppose Banner, of sound mind, asks to be killed right then and there to prevent the Hulk from coming back. Doing so will kill the Hulk too. Is that morally OK? Is the Hulk a separate entity that has its own rights or is he just another aspect of Banner's state of mind?

[SuperiorIronman]

I suppose there's another philosophical question worth addressing - is it ethically OK to kill the Hulk without the Hulk's consent? Suppose Banner, of sound mind, asks to be killed right then and there to prevent the Hulk from coming back. Doing so will kill the Hulk too. Is that morally OK? Is the Hulk a separate entity that has its own rights or is he just another aspect of Banner's state of mind?

The Hulk is intelligent despite what others think and is capable of reason so he could be asked this question if ever given the chance. He is an aspect of Banner and not a separate entity so if the Hulk says no to this does this mean Banner changed his mind because the Hulk is Banner? Considering the split between the two aspects of Banner's psyche is Bruce ever in a sound enough mind to make a decision like this?

Something to add considering the vision is the Hand bringing the Hulk back from the dead. If they succeed then doesn't that mean the vision could have been of the reanimated Hulk and not the then living Hulk? Did the authorities who went to Banner account for where the Vision takes place? Was it at Bruce's lab or not? If not then he doesn't Hulk out there and they clearly have more time until something happens. Who was present for the vision? If the people who get killed or affected by those he kills are the "future victims" justified in being there? It only invites trouble as they will try to defend themselves if something might happen.

[Death&Return of Superman]

if they had shown that, what would have been the point of putting Clint on trial. the end goal was to create drama.

What does that have to do with creating drama, or even the outcome of the trial? The drama of a trial doesn't have anything to do with if you know Clint actually saw what he saw. The story could have even framed such a thing as us seeing what he thought he saw, and we aren't really sure if he did or didn't actually see it. You know how All the President's Men is going to end, yet that creates drama.

[Tony Stark]

What about Ulysses's prediction? Clint, Carol and a whole bunch of others saw this prediction and had been treating as 100% likelihood of happening. Couldn't that be interpreted as further proof that Banner was going to change?

You have seen visions that were wrong. So no. He's not 100%. I don't see how that's hard to get.

[Frontier]

Well, we already have exact proof that Ulysses' visions can be wrong.

Apparently the woman that he pegged as Hydra wasn't actually Hydra and completely innocent of what she was taken into custody without due process for. HydraCap even verified it.

So his vision's aren't as absolute as his supporters might like to believe.

[Michael Watkins]

Well, we already have exact proof that Ulysses' visions can be wrong.

Apparently the woman that he pegged as Hydra wasn't actually Hydra and completely innocent of what she was taken into custody without due process for. HydraCap even verified it.

So his vision's aren't as absolute as his supporters might like to believe.

so you consider Ulysses to be unreliable but believe a Hydra-compromised captain America. I-r-o-n-y

[Michael Watkins]

What does that have to do with creating drama?

because, if it weren't up to interpretation, we wouldn't currently be discussing it.

The drama of a trial doesn't have anything to do with if you know Clint actually saw what he saw.

he has an affect on Clint's state of mind; going into the trial. how sure was he of his own innocence? to someone who believes Clint, there is inherent drama in him being the only one to see the flickering green.

[Michael Watkins]

As evidenced in the Wolverine and Spider-man tie ins, the predictions can be self fulfilled.

you can't prove that. "Clash" was cleary an unstable guy. it wouldn't have taken much to send him back to a life of villainy. and Wolverine has a history of flying into blind rages. so much so that they actually made it one of his fighting moves in the Capcom Marvel vs Streetfighter game.

Also the kid has no real control when he gets emotional over his power so it can't be said it is foolproof.

that's why Karnak is training him.

[FoghornLeghorn]

At the debate last night, Donald Trump said he'd pardon him if he is elected president!

[Tony Stark]

you can't prove that.

Coming from someone who can't prove Clint Barton saw anything. That's rich.